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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : John 20:23

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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Love covers over a multitude of sins. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven.



without his consent or knowledge?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/8 15:06Profile
knitefall
Member



Joined: 2010/3/2
Posts: 253


 Re: the verse

It's simple. Upon presenting Christ and the person receives, we do [by the Holiness of God] have the authority to unequivocally reckon a person's sins "remitted" or all gone. In other words, we can tell them, "You're Saved and Forgiven!"

Simple enough!

///EDIT///

Then if a person rejects that same Gospel Plan, their sins do remain to bring them into the fullness of the judgment.

 2010/7/8 21:24Profile









 Re: Without their knowledge?

Dear Philologus,

I cited two Scriptures, "Love covers over a multitude of sins" and "If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven."

And you asked, “Without his consent or knowledge?”

The answer to the second question, "without his knowledge" is, it depends. It depends.

My first illustration is Jesus.

When Jesus said, “Your sins are forgiven,” it was with the two men’s knowledge. He was saying it directly to them. They were being personally addressed by another human being, face to face. There’s a lot of power in that encounter. It was with their knowledge because Jesus was looking them right in the eye.

Jesus' forgiveness, without specific reference to their repentance, allowed subsequent healing to take place.

My second illustration is from my own life.

There’s an elderly woman in my church. She is habitually negative, carping, and complaining. She used to criticize one or two individuals, personally, nearly without ceasing. I was appalled and upset by her, but I held my tongue. I knew that her negativity had to result from past negativity in her life, and I didn’t want to pour more negativity into her poor soul. So I forgave her. I exercised forbearance and patience.

Someone else was able to effectively work with her, another older woman, someone who wasn’t responding as intensely as I was. She was able to be more positive and supporting with her. And the negative woman has shown considerable signs of improvement, of change, which is what I call metanoia—repentance.

My forgiveness, without her knowledge, allowed ministry to take place through another. Could I have rebuked her? Yes, of course. With scriptural justification? Absolutely. But forgiveness, patience, and forbearance were the appropriate response for me.

Forgiveness, forbearance, patience, and tolerance frequently require the same thing: our silence. Our silence allows people to hear the still small voice of God.

My third illustration is my present vocation.

I have been involved in the gay and lesbian community for roughly six years. When I first entered, I was viewed with a fair amount of suspicion and caution. I could see this question lurking on people’s faces: “What’s this Bible-thumping Christian doing around here?” Whatever sins these people may have committed, I had forgiven.

Now I am accepted as a friend. I’m trusted. Do I know how God is going to ultimately use me here? No, I don’t know yet. I have, however, had a number of people express thanks for my love, support, and acceptance. So far I simply love and accept, support and forgive. I don't know what God is going to do with this.

Do these folks know that I have "forgiven" them? Probably not in those words. But those who know me recognize my love, care, and support. And that's what counts.

"Sometimes you were exposed to public ridicule and were beaten, and sometimes you stood side by side with those treated that way, sharing in their suffering" (Hebrews 10:33).

There is a diversity of gifts and ministries (I Corinthians 12) in the Body. We are not all called to identical ministries with identical messages.

Because of this, it isn’t necessary for you and I, or anyone, to be in perfect intellectual agreement on the various issues we’ve discussed so far. There is diversity within the Body of Christ. This diversity is based on personality and temperament, on background and upbringing, on our various limitations and strengths, and on our differing callings.

Ron G.

 2010/7/9 5:07
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Ron G
"But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers. 8 And above all things have fervent love for one another, for “love will cover a multitude of sins.”" 1 Pet 4:7–8 NKJV

Love will cover a multitude of sins but God's love is holy love and he will not impose 'forgiveness' upon anyone. We know from experience that it is just as possible for someone to refuse 'forgiveness' and the breach remains.


Quote:
"But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers. 8 And above all things have fervent love for one another, for “love will cover a multitude of sins.”" 1 Pet 4:7–8 NKJV


You take too much on yourself in this presumption.

"But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”" Matt 9:6 NKJV

Here we have a plain testimony that 'the son of man' has authority on earth to 'remit sins'. He demonstrated this authority by healing the man otherwise, quite rightly, no one would have taken him seriously. Inbuilt in this statement of Christ is a very clear implication that others do not have authority on earth to forgive sins and that includes you.

If someone sins against you certainly you have the authority to forgive them and must. Is someone sins against me you have no authority to forgive them. If someone sins against God you have no authority to forgive them.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/9 11:21Profile









 As You Wish

As you wish, Ron.

I will leave you with the difficult puzzle of Jesus' statement, "If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

God bless you as you minister to others. May God give you a truly Christ-like ministry. May he give you the same insight into every individual you meet the way Jesus had.

Ron G.

 2010/7/9 14:56
knitefall
Member



Joined: 2010/3/2
Posts: 253


 Re:

Someone needs a Theology check.

It's simple. Upon presenting Christ and the person receives, we do [by the Holiness of God] have the authority to unequivocally reckon a person's sins "remitted" or all gone. In other words, we can tell them, "You're Saved and Forgiven!"

Simple enough!

Then if a person rejects that same Gospel Plan, their sins do remain to bring them into the fullness of the judgment. If someone sins against God you have no authority to forgive them.

 2010/7/9 16:32Profile









 Theology Check

"The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know." (I Corinthians 8:2)

Take care, Knitefall, and God bless!

 2010/7/9 20:11
knitefall
Member



Joined: 2010/3/2
Posts: 253


 Re: Theology Check

Well said My Friend! Well Said!

 2010/7/9 21:34Profile
knitefall
Member



Joined: 2010/3/2
Posts: 253


 Re:

Consider John Gill:

John 20:23

Whose soever sins ye remit
God only can forgive sins, and Christ being God, has a power to do so likewise; but he never communicated any such power to his apostles; nor did they ever assume any such power to themselves, or pretend to exercise it; it is the mark of antichrist, to attempt anything of the kind; who, in so doing, usurps the divine prerogative, places himself in his seat, and shows himself as if he was God: but this is to be understood only in a doctrinal, or ministerial way, by preaching the full and free remission of sins, through the blood of Christ, according to the riches of God's grace, to such as repent of their sins, and believe in Christ; declaring, that all such persons as do so repent and believe, all their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake: and accordingly,

they are remitted unto them;
in agreement with Christ's own words, in his declaration and commission to his disciples; see ( Mark 16:16 ) ( Luke 24:47 ) . On the other hand he signifies, that

whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained:
that is, that whatsoever sins ye declare are not forgiven, they are not forgiven; which is the case of all final unbelievers, and impenitent sinners; who dying without repentance towards God, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, according to the Gospel declaration, shall be damned, and are damned; for God stands by, and will stand by and confirm the Gospel of his Son, faithfully preached by his ministering servants; and all the world will sooner or later be convinced of the validity, truth, and certainty, of the declarations on each of these heads, made by them.

 2010/7/9 21:36Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re: As You Wish



RonaldGoetz wrote:
I believe the real "difficulty" is internal to us, that we are inclined NOT to forgive sin, or even want to, but rather enjoy the role of gatekeeper, controlling who gets in and doesn't.
-------
brother Ron,

I think you hit human nature on the head and God have mercy on those who can't admit it. I have been on both sides of this preverbal fence; condemning and judging others but not condemning and judging my fornicating self. Then I was fortunate enough to backslide (hindsight speaking) and I try to always go with mercy first and second and even third now. (Sadly) there are still several Christians who knew me before backsliding, (who wrote me off while I was backslid), still know me and when I see them I see contempt in their eyes and they won't forgive me in the name of righteous indignation. (edit: Which doesn't help me forgive myself... so we can forgive others I think).

I believe with all my heart those things we have righteously declared unforgivable that at the judgment seat of Christ we will give an account for.

(So what), it is no skin off of my nose if a person who just came in slding under the door still gets the same reward (a penny) and I slave away all day the sun! (I think we are going to have to give an account of why we truly do care (check yourself and see whether you be in the faith or not!) that the worldly and those we deem not worthy of God's reward... that they are getting eternal life as we are! (For the record, I do not presume to know who is getting "in" and who "isn't.")

(edit: Had it not been for the Lord on my side; where oh where would I be??? Had it not been for the Lord on these other people's side, where oh where would they be? /edit)

(edit: Please do not presume to think that I think every homosexual, prostitute, drug addict, wife beater is getting in and getting our same reward... I know that some of these are though!!! You cannot deny Luke 14.1-23;(well some can!) I can NOT assume to know who He will fill His house with and if you are honest, neither can any of the rest of us. /edit)


God bless you brother.
Lysa

Ps I'm with my mom at the er and I know I just made a mistake on my iPod... I'll have to change it tomorrow.

(edit: They put my mom in the hospital since she's on chemo and has a high fever. I'll take my sister's laptop to the hospital and hopefully she'll let me use it.)


_________________
Lisa

 2010/7/9 23:11Profile





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