| Re: Peoples and Trees|
I think that most of us will now agree that the New Covenant has replaced (yes I'll use the word) the Old Covenant.
The thing I want to know (as I'm not convinced in my own mind) is are the Church the only "people of God" / "God's people"?
I will refer to Romans 11 to further the discussion:
1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.
This seems to be referring to another people as "His people"
Where does the olive tree analogy fit into this also? There are two trees (one being the wild olive tree - refering to the Gentiles), but only ONE tree is His people / the Church?
| 2010/10/11 11:24||Profile|
| Re: Peoples and Trees|
Nasher: I think you have probably opened a whole new can of worms. I am sure many people have differing opinions. I will give you what I see from scripture.
This verse in Romans is one of many that point to the fact that God is not finished with his chosen people Israel. Although we as the church are the children of God and in that respect the people of God, I have never heard the church referred to as the chosen people of God in the same sense or context as Israel. I think it is important to define some terms accurately so the discussion does not get muddled.
Israel was chosen of God to be the people through whom God would deal to bring about Jesus Christ and the New Covenant. It could very well have been some other group of people, but God chose to make His covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (or Israel). It was through Israel that the law was given, through Israel that the prophets arose, both of which testified of Christ. God dealt with Israel in some very specific ways that were unique to them. He dealt with no other peoples on earth in the same way. This choosing was not always an easy thing for Israel. They have also suffered much in the earth because of being chosen by God.
The church is the worldwide body of believers who have placed their faith in Christ and received His atonement for sins. The church was the ultimate object of God's design foreshadowed in the law and prophets. God's covenant with Abraham was fulfilled in the New Covenant. The gospel that God showed Abraham is the same gospel that was revealed through the seed of Abraham through which all of the earth is blessed.
It is God's desire that the children of Israel enter into the same relationship with Him that I as a Christian enjoy. God will not "save" Israel in some way that is different from how any of us are saved. Salvation for the Jew is no different than Salvation for the Gentile. He has broken down the middle wall of partition between Jew and Gentile. Both are concluded under sin. Both must accept Jesus as their savior.
As to the olive trees. We were the wild branch that was grafted in to the root of the natural olive tree. As such we will provoke Israel to jealousy that they also might be saved. The natural branches will be once again grafted back in.
This is not to say that all people who are Jews will be saved any more than all Gentiles are. But the veil will be lifted off their eyes, and Israel will come to realize that Jesus is the Messiah and I believe a great number will come to saving knowledge of Him just as a great number of Gentiles have.
Hope that Helps.
| 2010/10/11 14:33||Profile|
| Re: |
Travis --- As one worm in the can, can I just say that I agree entirely with your first three paragraphs, especially your explanation of Israel.
But in paragraph 4 you speak of the church:
"The church was the ultimate object of God's design foreshadowed in the law and prophets."
But the ultimate object of God's design; the mystery of His will, which He has purposed in Himself; is revealed to us through Paul in Ephesians:
"That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him" Eph 1:9-10 (KJV)
The church is the heavenly people of God and Israel, the earthly people.
God's purpose is to make them one. When? In the dispensation of the fullness of times. For us, who believe and are called His heavenly saints, that dispensation has by faith come in Christ. But for Israel; they are the enemies of the gospel, and have been broken out of their olive tree for our sakes, the gentiles. God has shut them up in unbelief and has purposed that their unbelief should be salvation for us, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. At this time, the church will be taken up, (resurrected or changed) to be with Christ their bridegroom. Then Christ will come again and all His saints with Him, and all Israel shall be saved.
"According as it is written, The deliverer shall come out of Zion; he shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. And this is the covenant from me to them, when I shall have taken away their sins" Romans 11:26-27
It is true that now in this time of God's grace, Jews and Gentiles are made one in the church, His body. These are the heavenly saints. But God's promise to Israel and to Abraham is an earthly promise involving the land, and this promise will be fulfilled by Christ through Israel at His second coming.
So Christ will gather together earthly and heavenly in one. His church now, and Israel at His Glorious coming.
| 2010/10/11 18:46||Profile|
| Re: |
Hey Worm David :-). I guess it depends a little on your eschatology. I believe Israel will be saved in the same way you or I were, by receiving Christ as atonement for their sins. I do not personally believe in a pretribulation rapture, but rather that there is one day of the Lord, one second coming. So I don't believe the church will be raptured and then God will deal with Israel.
I see what you are saying about a heavenly people and an earthly people, but I cannot say I personally think that is totally accurate. It is not so much that one is heavenly and one earthly. It is that the first were chosen for God to work through to bring about the advent of the Savior. The covenant with Abraham was about the offering of an only begotton son. We are made one in Christ whether Jew or Gentile, bond or free, male or female. The first members of the church were born again out of Judaism. But as a whole Israel has had blinders on and have not been able to see the true intent of the law as pointing to Christ.
By saying the church was the ultimate purpose I meant that the ultimate purpose of the law and the prophets was to foreshadow and usher in Jesus Christ who was to pay the penalty for sin once and offer the way in which we all, Jew or Gentile, could be made righteous and once again enter into right relationship with Christ as sons of God.
I don't get too mystical about Israel. I love that people. I believe there is blessing pronounced upon those who love her. I believe she is still the apple of God's eye so to speak. But I don't see that Israel comes to salvation any differently than any other.
As to eschatology, I reserve the right to be wrong. I very well may be. It is just the best understanding of the scriptures that I have.
Your Fellow Worm...
| 2010/10/11 19:38||Profile|
| Re: |
"As to eschatology, I reserve the right to be wrong. I very well may be. It is just the best understanding of the scriptures that I have."
Thanks for your gracious words. I understand where you are coming from. The new covenant approach to scripture is certainly most blessed. I myself spent 20 years of my life drinking in the teaching of redemption, Holy Spirit baptism, new birth, and the church and was very blessed. But when it came to understanding of a large proportion of scripture concerning prophesy and the end times, especially the book of Revelation, a new testament book, the new covenant teaching was confusing, vague and generally avoided altogether.
The new covenant teaching revels in Paul's letters and in comparing old and new covenants. But we have from God a full revelation of Himself in the bible and all shoud be understood equally. It is no use saying: "that part concerns the end times and cannot be properly understod." or: "that passage is full of symbolic language and who can properly interpret it?". So they ignore whole chapters and books, except to pick out the odd verses, which could perhaps speak of Christ or of the church and use them to preach sermons.
I found the whole approach very unsatisfactory. I may be totally misrepresenting you and your understanding, and if so, I apologise and will stay a worm.
a) that a more literal approach to scripture was necessary. and
b) that we should understand that God's dealing with Israel and with the church are completely different and should not be confused.
With this approach to the bible, a whole new understanding comes of Gods ways; in the past with Israel; now in the church, and future, ie the end times.
I do understand that there are wonderful blessings in the new covenant approach, but I truly believe that you are missing out on a far more full and glorious revelation of God's purpose in Christ.
a rejoicing worm
| 2010/10/11 20:38||Profile|
| Re: nasher|
yet again, another Briton, forwarding the feckless theology of "replacement theology"....i've noticed the most ardent proponents of this damnable theo-spew call England their home, and i ask my self, why the British? But after all replacemnt theology came out of "british- israelism".
and what i come up with is, after all Britain WAS once of the most bloodthirsty rapacious imperial powers on this earth, (of course, we've followed in their footsteps) and weakened significantly after WW2, a small band of armed Jews was able to give Britain the boot from Palestine....that might play a role in Britons engaging in such theo-flights of fantasy as replacement theology.
and of course, centuries before that Britons made life hell for Jews, forced explusions, institutionalized anti-semitism, etc.
but what i find really telling is this, post WW2, England, definitely not pro-Israel has been sliding right down the tubes, Churches, cold, dead and dying, muslims on your shores, with vibrant mosques, setting you all up for sharia law, everything in daily life, frayed, gray and drab.
God's covenant's are forever. i didnt quote Scripture, because i dont want to waste one second engaging in dueling verses with yet another Briton spewing out that hellish theory of "replacement theology".
| 2010/10/11 20:52|
| Re: |
Nicodemus did not know it, they did not know it even after Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came to believers. Paul did not know it until it was revealed to him by Jesus Christ Himself, That God has birthed His Son in the believer. This is the difference before the Cross and after the Cross.
It takes a birthing to be a son and children of that Father.
We the Body of Christ His Church are the children of God, rebirthed not created and then made a people of God. We are not people of God, we are children of God our Father, whom Jesus Himself said we are to pray now this way, "Our Father".
This is not a separatist theology, this is truth of the scriptures. Before Nicodemus even ask the question, Jesus answered him; "John 3:3-8 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
The Nation of Israel is not born again of the Spirit of Christ or the Baptism into the Holy Spirit. Even to this day Israel still won't listen, except those individual Jews that are given to Jesus by the Father, these are the Born Again, where there is no Jew or Gentile, all one In Christ, with Christ born again in them.
Acts 28:27-29 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
Still to this day, Israel is the same and won't hear, see and be converted and healed. This will happen when Christ comes to rule them on this earth from the Throne of David.
The difference in the New; birthed sons and the Old, chosen people.
Colossians 1:9-13 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Colossians 1:18-19 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
This is the Incorruptable Seed birthed in the believer and now we are the sons and children of God by birth right, not creation, but birth.
1 Peter 1:13-24 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
Who is the Word of God? John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
He is the Incorruptable Seed birthed in us, of which Jesus said this we must be born again or we cannot see the things of the Kingdom of God. No One was born again before Christ ascended to the Father and as He promised He would not leave us comfortless even when The Comforter, The Holy Spirit was sent by the Father, so also Is Christ in us the Hope of Glory and by these we are comforted.
John 14:18-20 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Does the Nation of Israel know this? No, not unto this day and they will not accept it, for they are even in all the evangelism that has occurred from the Cross; Acts 28:26-28 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
Christ in the believer, born again into One Spirit, even Baptized; 1 Corinthians 12:12-13 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. In particular;
1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Now the best way; 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Is He come? Christ in you the Hope of Glory.
In Christ: Phillip
| 2010/10/11 21:47||Profile|
| Re: |
i didnt quote Scripture, because i dont want to waste one second engaging in dueling verses with yet another Briton spewing out that hellish theory of "replacement theology".
Thank you for your edifying post, however if you don't want to discuss scripture then I suggest you leave the "Scriptures and Doctrine" forum.
| 2010/10/12 3:36||Profile|
| Re: |
First and foremost I don't believe God is finished with anyone :-)
With regards to God's people, I do believe the Church are God's people based on Romans 9:24-26
even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
As He says also in Hosea:
I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.
And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
You are not My people,
There they shall be called sons of the living God.
However, based on Romans 11:1-2 it says that God has another people, the Israelites?
How are these people different?
What is the olive tree is picture of? God's people? Israel? The Church? All three?
| 2010/10/12 3:36||Profile|
i love to discuss Scripture. Behind worshipping God, and secret prayer, it is joy to me, Pure Joy.
However, i been around this "block" again and again with proponents of this doctrine of demons called "replacement theology"...it is wickedness and spiritual arrogance taken to its absolute nadir.
since 315 Ad, when satan got up in the foul heart of constantine, who embraced the whore of babylon, and formed the "church of rome", thru the crusades, thru even the last writings of luther, going eastward vis-a-vis thru the "orthodox churches", whether they be eastern or russian, right till the 20th century, when the dark hearted lutheran "ministers" of germany gave covering to a demon went by the name of hitler, the witness of vast elements of the church, has the blood of the tribe of my flesh, the Jews on their hands, and on their heads.
an abysmal witness, a witness, that cried out from a foul institution, a mimicry of what Jesus gave His Blood for, hordes of dark hearted men screaming, 'you killed our savior, now we kill you!"...or "kill a Jew for Jesus!" This is not out of some vain imagination, but fact, a sordid history of YOUR ancestors.
What has the Ingrafted Vine done to make the Jew, "envious of so great a Salvation"? To this very day, even the mention of That Beautiful Name above all names...Jesus, literally will make the hairs on the neck of a Jew, stand up. i know. Its not a convicting fear, its the fear of darkened men, whipped and frothed in the fervor of "religious" hatred, which is the food of satan, abaddon, the destroyer.
satan, in that cesspool of a mind, has one last hope, futile hope to prevail over God, and that is wipe the earth clean of the Jews. But his schemes are futile, he has lost, but that doesnt mean, in his desperation, he'll stop...witness the times we live in.
Many today, say the modern state of Israel is not of God. i then ask, how could such a tiny nation prevail, vastly outnumbered by hordes of foes, bent on Israel's destruction, be defeated again and again by the Israeli army and airforces, if God was not with Israel?
i've noticed that the secular press ranks scorn on two things, those blessed followers of Jesus, who love the Jewish people, and support Israel, they are called derisively, "Christian Zionists", but i thank God for these brothers and sisters. secondly in the secular Israeli press, its been noted that the officer ranks in the Israeli army is being filled with observant Jews, as if this was something bad. it's good.
in conclusion Nasher, i dont know you, know your heart, you dont know me. my heart for the people of my flesh, dovetails with Pauls in Romans 9 and i thank God, that He took mercy on me, and revealed His Son to me and in me, cutting thru all the history, the tales i was told by my granmother, a 2nd generation Jew from those who fled the pogroms in the Pale of Settlement, cutting thru all the fear. It was NO MAN who spoke to me of the Reality of Messiah, NO MAN evangelized me, i was alone, and the Holy Ghost revealed Jesus Messiah to me, in my desperation, for which i thank God with all my heart, soul, body and mind.
if i seem vociferous on this matter, 'replacement theology' its because its a lie, and it is an attempt to thwart God, and close the Way to the Jews, and i have never seen, nor heard any repentance from the vast Protestant Church at large, in regards to this sordid past regarding treatment of the Jews. i expect none from the Crown of England, nor from papa in rome. (we could barely get an admission of guilt from him regarding his hell bound child molesting 'priests' recently)
and as far as 'discussing' Scripture on these forums, sometimes they are to the profit, mostly not. Folks love to deal in "dueling" Scriptures, using the Precious Word like arrows, which to me, is sinful.
i mean no harm, but i will not countenance this terrible thesis of 'replacement theology'.
in Jesus' love, neil
| 2010/10/12 9:26|