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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A New Covenant

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Hundreds of years before Moses ever was merely a twinkle in his parents eyes God has always provided a standard of walking uprightly before Him.

Though we do not read anything of some recorded specific act, there are things that point to this very fact. For example, how did Abel know to sacrafice the fattest of the fat lambs to please God... and everybody born after him conforming to God's standard leading to finding grace in the eyes of the LORD.

It has always been through faith(fulness) towards God's expectations.

Here is a little tidbit found in Genesis 26.5 :

...because that Abraham:
1.) obeyed my voice,
2.) and kept my charge,
3.) my commandments,
4.) my statutes,
5.) and my laws...

If God did not before Moses talk to men telling them to preserve His revelations and obey His: commands, laws, statutes, and ordinances...
how could have Abel pleased God, Enoch walk with God, Noah find grace, Lot be found rightoeus, Abraham trust and obey... and so on?

If there were no Law and ordinances before Moses how could God justly consider human's imaginations only towards devising evil and through a cataclysmic flood -Gen. 6- destroy the whole old world exept for 8 people?

If there were no rules to obey, how could He in justice rain down a sulfurous firestorm on Sodom and Gomorrah?

If God was not heard speaking to those who obey Him, how could Noah have known what to do?

In fact, if God had not provided a ways and means of living in love towards Himself and mankind He created, how could He be right(eous) in judging anyone for anything?

Not mercy nor rewards are even recognized to exist if there were no vindication in justice or an absolute standard of expectation.

Jeremiah 9:

22 Speak out, "This is what Yaweh says, 'Even the carcases of men shall fall as excrement on open field, and akin to the handful remaining after the harvestman is finished, noboby will gather.

23 Says Yaweh, "The wise man should not boast in his wisdom, neither the mighty man brag about his strength, nor the rich man glory in his riches:

24 One who exhalts should celebrate this: that he is understanding and knowing Me that I Am Unchanging I Am delighting in exercising merciful lovingkindness, judgment, and uprightness throughout the earth," says Yaweh.

These three verses provide revelation on the thoroughness of God's justice through what He delights in doing.

Without God providing and expecting some standard to obey, these things cannot be.

Because God does not change neither has the fact of God giving absolutes He expects to be followed.

This has been a fact since God first told Adam the rules to living life in the garden of Eden.

Sin has just so complicated things, that what once was a choice of two rules to obey, now is a plethora of expectations that we shall never be able to fulfill in the flesh; but if we could not keep just two in Adam, and the human race has continually deteriorated since that time, what makes anybody think they can even keep one?

James clearly reveals that all the Laws are interconnected in the fact: if you break one, you have broken them all.

The Spirit of our Master Jesus Christ enables us to walk even as He walked.

When we take up our cross and die, the life we live is by the mighty power of His resurrection, walking in His Spirit.

We may try to change the way things have been made to function but we have 2 outs and 3 strikes against us from the git-go.

You might think you have a different way that seems better. The problem is, you are going to have to create your own universe to test it out.

Love, Hope, and Faith,

...I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
Acts 20:31-32

edited: 4 clarity

 2010/7/25 23:43

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710


Christ cannot be crucified ever again. Those that are under the Law would dictate because of sin that He be crucified again.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Indeed, the moral influence which such warnings are designed to exert, is a part of the system of means by which God fulfils his design, very distinctly made known in other passages, (Joh 17:2; Ro 8:29-30; 1Pe 1:4-5,) effectually to keep those who once truly given to Christ by the Father and they who give themselves up to his care.

Either the crucifixion of Christ was enough or we must add something to it be saved. If The Cross was not enough we of most people are most misirable and lacking in salvation and keeping man on his own throne.

In Christ: Phillip


 2010/7/26 3:33Profile

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


Phillip wrote:

Christ cannot be crucified ever again

Yes, this is according to Scripture. And His death covers all generations. All those who lived by the faith imparted to them by Christ through the Holy Spirit are the adopted sons of God.

In Christ

Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/26 6:12Profile

Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK


by Phanetheus on 2010/7/25 19:43:15


Where have I ever implied that grace is not part of love? Grace is love in action.

This thread, page 23, 2nd post, like this:

by Phanetheus on 2010/7/24 2:04:35
You two do not think Law is grace, but Law is Grace:

and you reply:

Not so. The law was an expression of God's love...

(w/ Duet. 33:2-4 following to prove it)

When I say 'not so' I am saying that 'it is not so that 'you two do not think the law is grace'.

I do not presume to speak for Robert W but 'this one' certainly believes that every act of God towards the human race is an act of grace, and that grace is 'love in action'.

Ron Bailey

 2010/7/26 10:42Profile

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


You two do not think Law is grace, but Law is Grace.

Every measure God has used to reestablish relationship with man since the fall has been an act of grace. In fact, it is because of God's tender mercy that we are not consumed. The Law was not able to impart life. No rules can impart life.

Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. (Galatians 3:21 NASB)

Robert Wurtz II

 2010/7/26 11:43Profile

Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2013
Joplin, Missouri


Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. (Galatians 3:21 NASB)

Robert quotes a wonderful passage. The law was not contrary to the promises of God. The law pointed to the promises. The promise was of a coming righteousness that was through the grace of God, not through the observance of the law. Jeremiah 31:33. If any true righteousness could have been obtained by keeping the law then the promise would have been superfluous and unnecessary.

When we make a statement like, "we are no longer under the law", or a statement like, "we do not have to keep the law anymore", we do not mean that New Testament believers are lawless or rebellious or licentious. Lets use, for example, the commandment, "thou shalt not commit adultry." I do not have to keep this law. This law does not apply to me. Why?

When I was born again, my spirit was regenerated. I am no longer a sinner. The transaction that took place was much deeper and much more than mere forgiveness of past sins, it was total regeneration of my spirit. My born again spirit does not desire to sin. If I walk in the Spirit, my spirit in agreement with the Holy Spirit, I will not have to worry about this law. One who is not an adulterer does not have to worry about keeping a law against adultery. This was the promise the law pointed to, having His laws written in our hearts.

Under the law, a man was guilty before God if he committed adultery. But what if he lived with lust for many women in his heart and mind all of his life? As long as he did not act on his lust he was legally free to lust. But what did Jesus say in Matthew 5. What made us think that simply avoiding the action of adultery was God's perfect standard anyway? His standard is His own righteousness, something that is totally unattainable by any effort of mankind. Avoiding adultery was never the standard. It is good and righteous to avoid adultery, but it was never a code of conduct that if kept somehow made us sexually pure before God. It was never God's standard of righteous conduct. It was, however, high enough a standard that people struggled to keep it in their own power and were convinced that they were not righteous and needed atonement.

A born again person, however, is convicted of lustful thoughts as they are inconsistent with the born again spirit made righteous by God. A born again person realizes these thoughts are inconsistent with the "law" of God written in his heart and desires to avoid not only adultery, but also lust. The law was made for the law breaker, not for a righteous man. 1 Tim. 1:8-10. I have been made righteous by Christ, 2 Cor. 5:21, under a new and living covenant, Heb. 10:20. We live and are righteous by the Spirit, not by the letter.

I am convinced that a man who truly realizes who he is in Christ and dies to self will live a far more holy life than even a Pharisee attempted to live because that man is governed by the life of the Holy Spirit. That man will live and act in accordance with who He has become, righteous and holy before God through the blood of Jesus Christ. No law is now necessary because the author of the law now live through him. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. The life I live in the body, I now live by the power and direction of the Holy Spirit.


 2010/7/26 16:56Profile


"The law was given through Moses: grace and truth was realized through Jesus Christ." " For His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace." What the Law demands, grace supplies.

The contrast that John pointed out is expounded by Paul: " The law came in so that the transgressions would increase" and the way be prepared for the abounding of grace more exceedingly. The law points the way but gives no strength to walk in it. The law demands , but makes no provision for its demands being met. The law burdens and condemns and slays. It can awaken desire but cannot satisfy it. It can rouse to effort but cannot secure success. It can appeal to motives, but it gives no inward power beyond what man himself has. And so, while warring against sin, it became its very ally in giving the sinner over to hopeless condemnation. "The power of sin is the law." (1Cor 15:56) (The Two Covenants, Andrew Murray, page 98)

 2010/7/26 18:06


Why all this emphasis on Paul and converting the words he wrote through the Holy Spirit's directives into opinions or other people's commentaries.

Paul's writings do not even comprise .08 of the Bible.

Something is way out of kilter when we cannot even come to terms with the whole of scripture without seemingly contradicting the over emphasised less than 8% of the Bible.

Did Paul contradict Jesus?

No he did not; yet, if our rendition of what Paul is saying does not align with the other over 92% of the scriptures, we are wrong and our idea of what (we think is) scriptural doctrine is dead in the water.

Giving scripture after scripture, pointing out the objects and subjects, meanings, verb tenses and so on seems to be going nowhere.

There will be no going back to chase rabbit trails running in so many circles.

See, virtually every arguement that is brought foreward against the differeng POV from here first of all, tends to leave Jesus out of the picture as the Who for the why the old covenant is merely ratified and not over, even as the Law is still intact.

Because there has been so much pre-occupation towards removing obstacles --(thing is, many times this has just been answers in different ways to repeated questions asked differently)-- this is just moving foreward too slowly for the time available here at present.

i really do not like debate; however, when whoever writes whatever that stands in contradiction to the whole of God's counsel, there will be little further movement foreward for that person or those who adhere to what is claimed. Faith in something that is not in alignment with what God actually says is no faith(fulness) towards God at all.

It's suggested, if there are doubts or questions regarding this POV---> (that this is 'new'
-as in formerly ignored until AD commented and i asked God-
to me, too.)<---that more than likely, the answers should be able to be found in the former pages.

Another problem with the running in circles is i get myself too dizzy to give information as a congruent it ends up looking so disjointed when really it is not that way at all.

For these reasons, unless there is more time available, various pieces will be written as though they were short discourses, and for the time being, questions will have to be parked in the parking lot.

So, for now, i'll try to give you a bit of what led up to the current perspective...kinda' like a testimony:

He delivers me...

HE sets me free...

HE gives me wholeness...

HE heals me...

HE instructs me in the way to go and do...

HE makes me prosper...

HE gives me life more abundant...

In fact, before any need comes up, HE provides what is needed toward that upcoming situation, then leads and advises through it.

HE teaches me how and what to pray...

and then

HE told me to observe and keep HIS commandments.

Ever learning and growing into this, JESUS residence in me has become so real, there is no longer that still small voice.

Communication with HIM now is better and more clearly real than talking with anybody else. HIS presence is making HIMSELF more and more obvious all the time, within, and outside of this carcass: Sometimes miraculously; sometimes others recognizing the fire within; Sometimes seeing it in these eyes; sometimes sensing something quite different when in the presence of HIM when i show up.

JESUS instructs me what to learn or mediate on and when. HE provides the sources towards what HE desires through me, often in uncanny ways.

Much of the time he tells me just to shut-up and pray, and then sometimes tells me what to say.

For the life of me, i cannot think of one thing i am afraid of anymore, and HE is the one willingly working to achieve HIS desires in me.

There is one thing i remain wary about, but never fearful of: it's this flesh that requires vigil, being attentive if when it attempts to rise...
and this is where more than ever, HIS law has made me not only recognize where i am tempted to falter, but to see through the intentions of others no matter how they may try to disguise.

God's law is so perfect to me that now it satisfies me more than food or sleep.

Have you ever noticed that people who try the most not to become legalists end up doing this very thing?

Have you ever noticed that those who try not to break God's law end up doing this very thing?

It's because the relationship in God becomes lacking. It's all a matter of Who (or what) our focus is directed towards satisfying

Take up your cross and die, and everything gets so much easier... and thinking about it now, dead men are not afraid of harm or death or sickness or disease or not having what is needed or...
...the life i now live, i live by the faith(fulness) of the Son of God.

Years ago, the Sermon on the Mount was memorized, and it became quite a bit of the total time spent in meditation: when i got up, when i was eating, when i would sit and relax, any spare moment, and even drifting off to sleep.

Through this, i still am seeing IRL what Mt. 6:12-15 and 30-33 working in unison are all about through astounding changes and transitions in this life.

In the here and now, though those 2 things remain fixed in a way that is second-nature, focus for quite some time, has been moreso on Mt5:3-20 in affiliation with 7:12-27.

Then beginning a little over a year ago, alot of time was spent repeatedly pouring through the books that were written through John specifically, and secondarily the general epistles.

These are the things that are focal at present, and it is all in affiliation with Torah (Because of the current impetus in the Sermon on the Hill... ever since Jesus told me to study and learn HIS LAW.

All this is told so that others may benefit from knowing the things behind the perspective here at present.

i'm still learning just like everybody else.

From the very early years God sought me out, and i am more fascinated with learning who He is, getting to know Him better now than when i first heard Jesus' voice calling my name.

He knows this is what is always on my mind, so he tells me to do this or that or whatever, and (both) makes it possible, then leads in the accomplishment of it.

i may seem adamant at times because i am. i am also a blunt and to the point kind of guy, hardly ever mincing words. Even questions asked from here are towards this.

(Please do not think that there is any agitation or frustration, for if there were the time available, there would be a walk through every post with those who were seeking answers to these things that are stated as so from the scriptures. i'm also trying to figure it all out.)

Often, i'm one of those who steps foreward when everybody else steps back and steps back when everybody else steps foreward. Being this way, i have done some things that seem just so really dumb... looking back now.

People most clearly identified with from the Bible, according to my human-way of relating with God and others, are Peter and Jeremiah with just a tinge of Jonah sometimes.

Ya's greatestest blessing
towards you all
and in you all,
namely, Jesus Christ.

In Love, Hope, and Faith,

 2010/7/26 22:01

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710


Mercy, Old Testament, forgives. Grace New Testament, Transforms. Animal sacrifice covers sin with mercy. Christ's sacrifice, transforms with new life.

In Christ: Phillip


 2010/7/26 23:15Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710


This is what Jesus told Paul to teach His brethren, that the Father had, is and will give Him unto perfect salvation, unto a perfect man in Christ Jesus. No other person in the bible had this message. Paul makes it clear and this is what he preaches in all his epistles, The Mystery, Christ in you the Hope of Glory, who could not be born again in the believer until His resurrection, assention, and return, rebirthed in every believer, making this new life, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ Jesus, and also son's of God.

Colossians 1:23-29 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is why the circumcission hated Paul, and hating him also hating the Christ that was in him.

In Christ: Phillip


 2010/7/26 23:40Profile

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