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Joined: 2008/10/21
Posts: 56
Maryland, USA

 Re: Against Denominations (i beg you all, please reason with me)

Wow! I learned a new word!!! I have had exactly the same thought about "isogesis" (i had to look it up). I describe it this way. It's like we are taking what we are DOING on Sunday and retrofitting the Word to get it to say what we want it to say.

I truly blv we need to stop looking at what we see with our eyes and get DROWNED in God's word and start doing what we see. I find that when I DO what is there, God's power becomes obvious. "I understand more than the aged because i OBSERVE Your precepts." Ps 119:100. You start to understand WHY God told us to do these things in the NT when you start doing them.

Let's God's word be the guide, NOT our eyes! Why is there no church that has as its mission statement, "Helping you obey all that Jesus commanded." ?

Tracy Hofmann

 2010/6/7 13:07Profile


Thanks Nate for that, enjoyed reading it.

The boy's name Boaz \
boaz\ is of Hebrew origin. Possibly "swiftness" or "strength". Biblical: names of several characters, including the second husband of Ruth, who treats her generously. Revived by the Puritans and occasionally used in England in the 17th and 18th centuries. Now very rare. Sometimes used in Jewish families.

God Bless you with an answer on that building Brother.

 2010/6/7 13:17

Joined: 2008/10/21
Posts: 56
Maryland, USA

 Re: brothers and sisters Matthew, Tracy, "mamaluk", "sojourner" M

Hi Brother Neil!
I struggled with years with PERFECTIONISM. Sounds sweet and tidy, like "oh what a problem to have." IT really ate me alive and took my health because I worked so hard and now my flesh is in a very poor state.

Smoking isn't specifically in the Bible, at least I don't think. Perfectionism isn't specifically listed in the Bible either as being a sin. (Except i think in Galatians it speaks something of trying to perfect in the flesh something that was started in the Spirit.)

But one day God showed me the root of the whole thing. For me: IDOLATRY. I LOVED the work of my hands. Seek God for the ROOT of this. He will show you and you can pray according to God's will and it will happen. One thing is for sure, if you follow NT Christianity (as i've had to learn of OUTSIDE of church), you'll be in the process of fighting sin and you'll get to the point of saying as you already did, "i do the sin i do not want to do."

Being broken is GOOD..EXCELLENT! We become fit to be God's instruments. It's not our will, but God's that we want to happen as he empties us out. I know of this myself and am not speaking from a theory. Letting God BREAK you is a good thing. Like a horse that needs to be broken, so do we in areas of our stubborn heart.

Tracy Hofmann

 2010/6/7 13:25Profile

 Re: brothers and sisters Matthew, Tracy, "mamaluk", "sojourner" M

Hey Neil,

There are countless Christians from around the world who feel as you do. I have met so many personaly, at the revival conferences in Scotland (we had over 800 peopls from 20 different countries) and Wales and last year in Barnsdall Oklahoma, and also on my website, and they all feel the same way. The time is short and the Lord is calling His remnant people, whose only desire is to be in His presence and glorify the name which is above every name. That is why we are having another series of meetings in Barnsdall, at the same church where we had last years revival conference. We are calling it " A call to the Remnant." You may find many of these pieces interesting.......

Come to Barnsdall brother and you will find many like-minded brothers and sisters Frank

 2010/6/7 13:31

Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


Let's God's word be the guide, NOT our eyes! Why is there no church that has as its mission statement, "Helping you obey all that Jesus commanded." ?

This is our mission statement in a nutshell. I am part of a Pentecostal denomination so to speak but striving to follow the whole counsel of God’s word.

We are striving to teach people to follow Christ with all the heart and to obey his commandments. I wouldn’t be a part of any group of people who didn’t uphold the full gospel message and who also would not allow me to proclaim the full gospel.

Although I want people to know that I am against everything that are ungodly, I had rather be known for what I am for and the things that are truly of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I have learned that it is easier to be critical toward everything than it is to offer positive solutions to the many problems of this life. I have found that it is better to get on with His commandments in what he has told us to do than sit in the seat of judgment on everybody else that are not doing it according to our understanding.

Well I am on my way to doing what he has put in front of me to do and I will leave the criticism to those more experienced at it than me. I must be about my Father’s business and I can’t be worried about things I have no control over but only making sure that I’m subjected to the Holy Spirit.

Blessings to all!

 2010/6/7 13:55Profile

Joined: 2008/9/2
Posts: 60

 Re: brothers and sisters Matthew, Tracy, "mamaluk", "sojourner" M

while I don't believe it is God's original intent, denominations are helpful. It separates different men with different beliefs and actually prevents contention in one way. Can you imagine a pentecostal arminian preaching to a crowd of 30% southern baptist calvinist? There would be little edification because of the disagreement.

Jerry Austin

 2010/6/7 14:00Profile

Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


"...denominations are helpful. It separates different men with different beliefs and actually prevents contention in one way."

There is the saying, "Fences make good neighbors".

What I've noticed is that many of the people who object to denominations also object to compromise in their midst in even the slightest degree. In my experience, these two objections lead to an irreconcilable tension.

While modern non-denominational Christians are perhaps a doctrinally ambivalent swath of Christians who tend to be both conservative and open-minded, the distantly related anti-denominational Christians can often be the most doctrinally contentious sect there is. In their school, very few professing Christians today, if any at all, are faithful adherents to the authentic apostolic standard of Christianity.

Can anyone see the paradox in the claims and exclusivity of this form of anti-denominationalism?

Even liberal emergent churches, who claim to believe in nothing and everything at the same time, are routinizing and formalizing around a very narrow set of beliefs and practices, and have no tolerance for disagreement in their ranks.

The only way to cease and desist from forming new denominations is to desist from critique of old denominations. Good luck with that.


Mike Compton

 2010/6/7 14:52Profile

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4529


Hi jerryaustin1...

You wrote: "while I don't believe it is God's original intent, denominations are helpful. It separates different men with different beliefs and actually prevents contention in one way. Can you imagine a pentecostal arminian preaching to a crowd of 30% southern baptist calvinist? There would be little edification because of the disagreement."

I used to believe this too. However, I began to wonder just what it is that causes people to WANT to primarily align themselves with like-minded people in regard to nonessential doctrines.

This sort of "separation determined by dot-and-tittle" can be extremely divisive -- because it teaches people to avoid the Acts chapter 2 type of unity of fellowship with other believes that we assume haven't "seen the light" as we have. There are great congregations here in the United States who you might agree with 99% of "official" church teaching. However, if you have a difference of opinion about one single issue -- you can be "rejected" from full fellowship.

I have heard stories about people who were "kicked out" of churches simply because they disagreed with the "official" church position on a single issue. Denominations often behave similarly. Sure, most of them will not ask you to stop attending -- although they often hope that you will leave whereas your opinion might not become contagious. Most of the time, they will simply make it so that you cannot become an "official" member of the local church or denomination. This will limit the amount of participation or influence that you can have.

I have to wonder just how such "unity by separation" can by helpful to the greater Body of Christ.

Personally, I feel no problem attending a wide range of congregations. I was saved while my family attended an Assembly of God congregation. Yet I have also attended Calvary Chapel congregations, non-denominational fellowships, Church of God (Cleveland), Baptist, and even some congregations that belonged to the more historic denominations. To be perfectly clear, I have NEVER agreed with every last issue held by a denomination, pastor or the "official" beliefs of a local congregation.

The congregation that I probably felt the most comfortable with was the one that I attended during grad school in Texas. It was a non-denominational congregation -- although it was part of a loose fellowship of small congregations. The church's official "we believe" consisted only of the essentials of the faith that believers from all backgrounds agree upon. Most doctrinal peculiarities are left up to the individual.

That congregation didn't care what you personally believed about eschatology, tongues or the calvinism/arminianism debate. The pastor didn't test you about what Bible version you prefer or regarding your specific views regarding clothes if you wanted to be involved in ministry with the congregation. The Church did suggest that your words about controversial doctrinal issues be mingled with the salt of awareness -- that we all are confined to seeing through a glass darkly (I Corinthians 13:12) on this side of Eternity. As a result of this grace extended to fellowship, I always felt very comfortable there.

I have long pondered just how much more unity would be reached in the overall Body of Christ if all congregations were run as such. Instead of pledging adherence to a list of prescribed doctrinal peculiarities in order to fellowship fully with a local church, why not just focus on the essentials that unite us in our relationship with Christ Jesus?


 2010/6/7 15:26Profile

Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860


I don't believe Neil is being Anti-denomination but is being Anti-division. What I read wasn't a heart to oust denominations but read a post pleading for unity amoung brethen. Why can't we come together in prayer for revival dispite our doctinal backgrounds? Do we all not want to see God move in a mighty way amoung us? Or is the something only one denomination wants? Don't or shouldn't we all have a fiery desire to speak with God face to face as a friend as He did with Moses? This website is proof that though there are disagreements there is still great unity amoung us and that it can happen on a real world realm, that there are brothers and sisters that disagree at times but everyone seems to havea common focus of Jesus Christ and having Him truly stepping down and encountering men and women's hearts. I don't really see a denomination or group of Christians that say We don't want that unless of course they aren't really Christian at all.

Matthew Guldner

 2010/6/7 15:27Profile


Mike writes..... "The only way to cease and desist from forming new denominations is to desist from critique of old denominations. Good luck with that."

I think the problem with that argument is that if it had been applied universally, there may have been no reformation at all. What a glorious thing that people came out of the Catholic church, an excellent and extremly brave fisrt step.

I just finished the book "The Pilgrim Church.' I would reccommend it, I think Greg threw up a link for it one time? Anyway, if you can get a hold of it, it is well worth the read. Often times down through the ages there was a beautiful unity between certain brothers and sisters of no particular denomination. And we also see that, often just prior to some of the great revivals of the past.

What I do agree with brother Compton is this, God's remnant people will be drawn together not by what they are mutually opposed to, but by what they desire more than anything. When God's presence departs, when the rain stops, the only important thing is to find that presence again. In the last few years I have witnessed many "strange bedfellows," come together to cry out to God because they know the time is short. I do believe that there is a new wineskin coming, have no idea what it looks like, but I do believe it will be made up of people's from different backgrounds, Penetecostals, Baptists (perhaps Bapticostals? :) Calvinists, Arminians all sorts of people. Impossible you say? Yes, certainly in the flesh such a thing is impossible.

Yet, as we know, there is nothing impossible for God. When the Love of God and the name of Jesus is elevated above the names of men, and He pours forth His Spirit, then, and only then, will we see a unity that perhaps we have not seen the likes of before, or perhaps have only had glimpses of. I have met wonderful people of many differing backgrounds, and what drew us to each other was a passion for Jesus and a desire to see Him glorifed in the earth. Idealistic? Perhaps. Should we strive towards perfection, or should we settle with conventional wisdom? When we see the woeful state of Christianity around the world, when you travel to Europe and see the death throes of Denominationalism, one may have a different Frank

 2010/6/7 15:28

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