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Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


I feel I should come back and clear up some things. I feel that how I shared in this thread may have started some of the blaming that is going on and that was not my intention.I do apologize for that.

First let me share that the young ladies that I was speaking about in my previous post is in full support of modest dress for women. All of them are very mindful of the effect that their behavior and choices have on others around them. Also I should make clear that these women were not saying that women should use as an excuse to "catch" the eye of a man to dress inappropriately. I think with the exception of the one young lady who was sharing about her youth pastor most of these girls are hoping or wanting to see even more of this kind of teaching for both men and women to happen. The importance of dressing modestly for women and the importance of looking for Godly character and traits in a life long partner are something we should be teaching young men and women both. I think personally there is a need to teach that we should be mindful of one another and care for one another in such a way as to not blame each other but seek in Christ to help one another as we journey along.

Women/girls for the most part are not victims in this. I do believe some women in the church do know exactly what they are doing in the way they dress. They crave the attention(not because they are abused or treated unequally) but because they want the focus on them. For some women this is a vanity issue, they want men "to look" at them, period. It feeds self and they do not care if they cause another to stumble.

For some men this is a double standard, as in the case of the youth pastor that spent all his time teaching about modesty then did not practice it. As I shared with that young lady just because he was sinning and being a hypocrite does not give her the license to sin and tempt her brothers in Christ with the way she dresses. I am glad to say I have seen a real change of heart in this young woman and she is seeing that it doesn't matter what someone else says she needs to follow the standard that God gives us in the Bible. I also think she is really beginning to see that she is attending a very lukewarm church and that maybe God has some place else for her to be(but that is a whole other thread) Sadly the only reason this youth pastor chose to speak on modesty was because they are dealing with three teenage pregnancy in the group at the moment.

Overall I think that the brothers on this site shared wonderfully that not all men are hypocrites in this matter, and that many do care about more then just what the eyes can see. I think that Matthew has shared very well that he feels both sides are accountable to God and I agree with that statement.

I do think this is an issue that most guys struggle with way more(I have four sons) and I do think that girls/women do hold more power in this situation. No one is forcing these girls to wear the clothes they do or to behave provocatively. I also think that men need to be really accountable to treat women, all women as sisters. IF they keep that mind set when dealing with or talking to a sister in Christ they will be less inclined to play with her heart and cause her to stumble also. I think for most this issue is a matter of sin for guys because they deal with lust, but for girls they want so much to be loved and accepted its a matter of the heart. We need these kinds of teachings so girls will learn to respect themselves first and walk in what God has for them and not be consumed with giving their heart/body away to just anyone and catching the eye of ever guy that is around them.

Anyway this is gotten long, sorry. If any of my posts caused anyone to stumble then I do apologize it was not my intent or heart to do so. As I said I have four sons and I know that there needs to be a lot more teaching to address this issue for both young men and women. I still think that the first post was great and I really have enjoyed sharing it with others that I know including my boys. I think the responsibility falls on all our shoulders to help and encourage one another daily to walk in Him!

God Bless

 2010/5/31 11:07Profile


I feel I should come back and clear up some things. I feel that how I shared in this thread may have started some of the blaming that is going on and that was not my intention.I do apologize for that.

I personally never saw it this way. Don't be too hard on yourself. :D

 2010/5/31 11:14

Joined: 2008/5/23
Posts: 632
Monroe, LA - USA


If you haven't heard of Keith and Melody Green, google them and be blessed! Melody had her own struggles with the issue, but you can read in this article how God led her in the issue.

Uncovering The Truth About Modesty

By Melody Green

"Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments; but rather by means of good works, as befits women making a claim to godliness." (I Tim 2:940)

This simple little Scripture certainly covers a lot of ground if we look at it closely. It especially becomes more clear when we consider the dictionary definitions of some of the key words (see box) that Paul uses. How many of us can say we are really living up to the light of this passage in I Timothy? The purpose of this article is to put a searchlight on our hearts and on our motives for the way that we choose to dress - and why. This is a subject that gets whispered or giggled about a lot, but rarely is someone directly confronted about their lack of modesty. It is a very delicate subject. . . but that's all the more reason to talk about it openly and honestly.

Are You Making A Claim To Godliness?
Essentially, the Scripture in I Timothy says that it's all right to dress however you want to, unless you are making a claim to godliness. In that case, the way that you dress (along with the rest of your life) must be subject to the guidelines and control of the Holy Spirit.

Our bodies are precious because they are a gift from God. They are attractive because God made us in His image for His pleasure (and if we are married, to please our mates as well). But God never intended us to flaunt ourselves or exhibit our bodies in an immodest way. He wants our bodies consecrated to him. "I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship." (Rom. 12:1) It surely must grieve the Lord to see the thoughtless way so many "modern" Christians dress. It's true that their bodies may be a living sacrifice-but to which god?

Modest-Having a regard for decencies of behavior or dress; quiet and humble in appearance, style, etc.; not displaying one's body; not boastful or vain; unassuming; virtuous; shy or reserved; chaste.
Proper-Specially adapted or suitable; appropriate; conforming to an accepted standard; correct; fitting; right; decent.
Discreet-Lacking ostentation or pretension; "showing good judgment"; prudent; cautious; careful about what one says or does.

It might seem to many of us that modesty is a thing of the past. I know before I became a Christian I didn't have the slightest idea of what it meant to dress properly. Looking back, it's hard to believe I even left the house in some of the things I used to wear (and not wear!), let alone that I wore them without even a blush! (Jer. 6:15)

The Bible in very clear terms tells us not to be conformed to the world, but instead, to be transformed. (Rom. 12:2) Webster's Dictionary tells us that to be transformed means a change of outward appearance or inner nature. I guess that's why it amazes me to see young Christian girls (and even more mature women) in church or at outdoor gatherings, hands uplifted in praise to God, while dressed in clothes that definitely do not give Him the glory.

In the summertime especially, we have our biggest opportunity to test our consecration to Jesus. Sheer blouses, halter-tops, "short" shorts, and skimpy bathing-suits are the norm for many careless Christian women. They use the rationalization that "it's hot" or "I'm swimming" to excuse their lack of modesty. Clothes that fit too tightly, tops that are cut too low, and skirts that are cut too short are not only a distraction to those around us-but the wearers show an unloving lack of concern for their responsibility as a representative of Jesus.

Unfortunately, it seems that many Christians are lost in their own selfish little world-either oblivious or uncaring about the affect they have on others. They may even appear to have a real excitement and love for the Lord-however, their body is sending out a totally different message. I know, because as I said before, I have done it-partly in ignorance, but mostly in rebellion. I can remember thinking, "Well, it's not my fault if they can't keep their eyes off of me and on the Lord. They just aren't spiritual enough. Why should I have to change just because they are weak?"

But the Lord showed me that it was my fault. I was responsible for causing my brother to stumble and it had to change. Once I really saw the damage my selfishness was doing to others and to the Lord, I was really ashamed of myself and embarrassed that I had been representing Jesus in such an unbecoming way. "It is inevitable that stumbling blocks should come, but woe to him through whom they come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble." (Luke 17:1-2)

The Fashion Queen
Worldly dress is quite revealing. First and foremost it reveals a worldly heart It also reveals wrong priorities and areas that are not yielded to God. Being dressed in a worldly manner does not always mean that you are dressed immodestly. It may simply mean that your style is flashy or overdone-generally speaking, just "too much. " If your perfume arrives at church five minutes before you do, who are you trying to kid? Did you put it on for Jesus? If you are drawing attention to yourself, then you are drawing attention away from God and stealing His glory.

Here are some simple questions. Are you considered a trendsetter-usually the first to buy the latest style? Do you spend a lot of time and money shopping for new clothes? Are you always thinking about what you're going to wear? Do heads turn to see your newest outfit-and do you enjoy turning heads? If you can answer yes to even one of those questions, it's quite possible that you are seeking man's attention instead of God's. As a famous evangelist once said, "Be honest about it, would you take all this pain about your looks if every person were blind?"

Pretty...Not Painted
I believe that too many Christian women overdo it when it comes to putting on their make-up. They arrive to fellowship with the world's "come and get me" look painted on their face. They look like showgirls on their way to a nightclub, instead of someone coming in meekness and humility to meet their Lord. Their faces are prepared, but their hearts aren't! And if the Lord should really move in the meeting so as to bring some to tears of joy or repentance, they would have to fight back the tears for fear they would "ruin their face." How can you be open to a touch from God when you're so concerned about your outward appearance? It's very simple . . . you can't be!

"Charm is deceitful and beauty is vain, but the woman who fears the Lord, she shall be praised." (Proverbs 31:30)

Sheep In Wolves Clothing
I would also like to include a brief word to the fellows in this article, for you are not always exempt from the sin of vanity and the desire to be noticed. Sadly enough, I have seen many of my Christian brothers drawing attention to themselves by wearing immodestly tight clothing and looking "just like the world." Many thoughtless Christian men unbutton their shirts halfway down their chest, surround themselves in a potent cloud of after shave-and don't really care that they may be causing others to take their eyes off of Jesus. You too must be sensitive to others and give the Holy Spirit control of your life. You are responsible to surrender this whole area to Jesus and make sure that you are not causing those around you to stumble and fall.

Acting the Harlot?
God does not think beauty is evil-how could He, He invented it in the first place! But beauty corrupted becomes harlotry. In Ezekiel 16:14-15, God says, "Then your fame went forth among the nations on account of your beauty, for it was perfect because of My splendor which I bestowed on you. But you trusted in your beauty and played the harlot because of your fame, and you poured out your harlotries on every passerby who might be willing." Here God is speaking to Jerusalem about her abominations. He compares her to a harlot to make His point, since everyone is familiar with how a harlot acts. How many of you are acting like harlots-parading yourselves, seducing with your eyes and trusting in your looks to bring you love and acceptance instead of trusting in God and putting your confidence in Him? You have heard it said that "beauty is only skin deep"-and it's true. But God can see through to the inside, and the things that are beautiful to Him are not always apparent to the common eye.

Perfume, Powder, And Prayer (A Challenge)
The world teaches us that in order to be loved we must be beautiful, sensual, and alluring. We are assaulted daily by billboards, books, television programs, movies, and magazines that teach us "a different gospel." Sure, everyone wants to be loved . . . but why and by whom? All that is supposed to change when we meet Jesus.

I think we will all agree that God is most concerned with the Inner man . . . the heart. But I don't think we can say, "Well, I may look worldly, but Jesus knows that in my heart I'm not." It is true that Jesus knows our heart, but I believe in most instances our outward appearance reflects our inward condition. Remember, He called the Pharisees "white-washed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead mens bones and all uncleanness." (Matt. 23:27)

God tells us to redeem the time because the days are evil (Eph. 5:16), but many will spend more time in the morning preparing their "outward selves" than they do preparing themselves inwardly for the warfare of the day by seeking God in prayer and His Word. Sometimes we can spend so much time fixing up the outer man that the Spirit inside shrivels up and dies.

I want to present my brothers and sisters in the Lord with a challenge. Measure the time you spend "fixing yourself up" on a daily basis. Then give at least equal time to God in prayer and Bible reading every day. We all know He deserves so much more, but if you just start there, you can let it grow as you do.

The Other Extreme
I think it is important to make it clear that I don't think pretty clothes or a little bit of make-up is wrong. In fact, I don't necessarily think that the most godly way to dress is in a bland and unattractive manner. To be quite honest with you, I have seen many people go to the other extreme and try to draw attention to themselves by being untidy, unclean, and uncaring about themselves. They try to prove to others that they are spiritual because of their lack of concern about the way that they look This too can be another form of pride and self-righteousness-and I believe it is all equally grievous to the Lord. He wants us to find a balance and seek to glorify Him in everything we do. Humility and moderation are principles that the Bible clearly teaches.

Marriage Is No Excuse!
There are many husbands and wives who encourage (and sometimes even demand) their mates to "look sexy." They feel that since they're already married, it won't really hurt to "turn each other on" in the way that they look and dress. I don't think there is anything wrong with dressing to please your husband or wife, in fact I think it's important that you do, but not at the expense of others. We must stay within the boundaries of the Holy Spirit, putting Jesus and His pleasure first in all we do.

One newlywed in our ministry held up a bare little summer dress to her husband, and shaking her head said, "This has got to go." He said, "But . . that's one of my favorite dresses!" She said, "Yes, but why do you like it so much?" He slowly smiled and agreed-and out it went!

Closet Cleaning
Many of you may really feel convicted to change and wonder what you should do now, so I would like to give you a few words of simple advice before I close. First of all, go through your closets and drawers and pull out all of the clothing that obviously has to go-and get rid of it! Next, get in front of a full-length mirror, and try on the things that are questionable. Look at yourself from all angles using a hand-held mirror. Look at yourself close up and from far away and see what you "really look like" in the clothes you have been wearing. View yourself objectively, as if you were looking at someone else-and note what your first impressions are of "this person." Check for fit and transparency and get rid of anything that doesn't pass the test-this is no time to be sentimental! Finally, each day before you leave the house, do the "mirror check" on anything that hasn't previously been checked or if you have gained weight since last taking a look. You will be surprised to find that some of the things you were sure about won't pass the test. This will help you weed out your wardrobe as you go. Some of you may be afraid that if you do this, you'll end up with nothing left to wear! But just remember that the most important thing is to be obedient to God, even if it means having a very limited wardrobe. Besides, when you are all done with this project, you will become a much more careful shopper and end up being a better steward over God's money than you ever were before!

True Beauty
True beauty is Jesus and Him alone. Letting that love flow through us to others is the beauty that is pleasing to God. Paul says we are to adorn ourselves with good works. . . as servants of the Lord, vessels through which others can feel His touch on their lives. Why would we want to substitute the world's counterfeit for the real thing?

True beauty radiates from the face of a godly man or woman. You won't notice much what they really look like because you are too busy noticing Jesus in them. Shouldn't that be our goal? Let's allow Jesus to so fully indwell us that we would never do or say anything that would bring shame to His name . . . yielding our whole lives to Him and serving Him in the inner courts of His holiness. Let's not forget that we are His Bride-and so dress accordingly as we fully divorce ourselves from the world and clothe ourselves with the righteousness of God! (Isaiah 61:10)

May God bless you as you seek Him about what all this might mean to you personally. Please take the whole matter to heart (and prayer) and then be obedient to change the things in your life that you find are displeasing to God.

"Give unto the Lord the glory due His name; bring an offering, and come before Him; worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness." (I Chron. 16:29)


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Michael Strickland

 2010/5/31 17:46Profile


interesting thread, personally i think the most beautiful feature on any woman, (or man) is their face. a smile originates there, if one has the gift of discernment, all you have to do is look someone in the eyes, and see right where they're at...happy sad blessed, crushed, what have you, and isnt it ironic, thats the very body part the muslims cover up on a woman, her face?

careful about being overwrought about such things i say, men do like to "lord" it over women, thats a truth, and a fact. It's men that rape women, you rarely hear of a woman rapist, and the thing that gets me feeling trigger happy, is when one of these rapists have their defense attorneys forward the "she was dressing provocativly and asking for it" defense.

rapists and men who hit and abuse women, i got no mercy time or patience for, period, end of sentence.

 2010/5/31 18:09

Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1862


rapists and men who hit and abuse women, i got no mercy time or patience for, period, end of sentence.

I wonder if on judgment day God will say this to you according to your sin. I have no tolerance for women being abused and rape however I can't say I have no mercy, time, or patience for the men that do these things. Christ died for everyones sins including theirs making everyone Savable. We are also called to do unto others as WE would want to be treated.

Matthew Guldner

 2010/5/31 19:41Profile


there is good in this world, and there is evil in this world. We know this.

Messiah died for the penitent that lay their sins under His Blood, and speaking for myself, i rest in God knowing this Truth in my own life, being penitent, contrite and humbled of heart, knowing that God has mercy on me, a broken sinner, i have Assurance in that Truth.

i will amend my statement in this instance, those men who have done such, rapists, either of women or children, or men who have abused women or children, past tense, and are penitent, yes...of course, i would have the time and patience and the mercy of the Holy Spirit that indwells, but the cruel reality is that there are, in this world, sons of darkness, who remain impenitent, who stalk the landscape, predators, listening only to their father, the devil, and what if you, were the only one standing between predator and prey?

i know this has little to do with topic and i apologize. it was just reading thru this thread and reflecting on the historcity of the human condition, thats all.

 2010/5/31 22:01

Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1862


Jesus loved the whole world and died for the whole world not just the repentive, however we must repent turning to God to accept this gift of Grace. Such men that have raped and beaten women I look at and remind myself that I am just like them and infact worse. We ALL stand and look guilty before a Holy and Just God no matter how few sins we have committed All fall short All are guilty and deserve Hell. It is only by grace I have been saved, Christ Jesus came into this world to save Sinners of Whom I am the worst. We as Christian aren't called to judge the world because they stand condemned already, Our job is to interceed, be an example of God's Grace, and be a Witness of Jesus Christ. God will judge on the day appointed, do we have to tolerate abuse and rape? absolutely not but we have no right to cast judgment and decide who is worth our time, patience, and mercy. This sin is the same as the Pharisees when they questioned Jesus about being with the Tax Collectors, Publicans, and sinners. Jesus died for them all the same. I agree that this is a bit off topic, don't forget the Human Condition you decribed is the very condition we are in without Christ and the very same human condition that Christ came to redeem for Himself, does He not deserve the full reward of His Suffering?

Matthew Guldner

 2010/6/1 1:29Profile

Joined: 2008/4/3
Posts: 228


Brother Grant, very good plea and post as well.

Saints, we are to walk in the Spirit, and thus we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Isn't it so simple?

My head is spinning from the exchanges back and forth of women's rights and man's wrongs etc. I can't blame my spiritual condition on history or my neighbor. I will be judged by the Word of God.

This post was begun by a brother in Christ pleading for his sisters in Christ to please walk in the Spirit.

From there it got sidetracked, and please be careful that you are not here to make trouble. We are living in perilous times, and men, I have two sons and grieve for them because of the blatant flaunting of flesh they are troubled by.

We are not living in the dark ages folks, although the spiritual darkness is great. Women's lib was not a move of God, and still isn't. It is not a matter of equality per se.

In Christ Jesus, there is neither male nor female but God Himself said that the woman was and is the weaker vessel, and that Eve was the first that sinned. Ladies, we must be careful what spirit we are of.

There is an issue here, and we are living in the last days and sin is rampant. God has given us an instruction Book and this is our plumbline.

Let us walk in the Spirit.


 2010/6/1 5:13Profile


Bless you Matthew for your explanation of the Economy of Grace, of the Ministry of the Resurrected Messiah, and His Blood that cleanses all sin, and in the spirit of harmony, let me leave it at that.

 2010/6/1 8:06

Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1522
Germany NRW


Thanks, Kathleen

 2010/6/2 12:33Profile

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