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 Re:

Quote:
There's no double-fulfillment of prophecy.



This statement alone shows that you have no idea of how Jews understand or view prophecy, or how the Jewish mind sees prophecy and uses midrash accordingly. The Bible is chalked FULL of multiple fulfillments of prophecy, and this idea is something Jews are quite familiar with. It would take an uninformed opinion to even begin to claim this.

Nero was AN anti-christ yes, but he was not THE man of lawlessness, who could even deceive the elect. In order for THE Anti-Christ to have come already there are many things that would have to had happen on a worldwide scale that have not happened. There is zero historical proof that this has happened. We can't just imagine that all the plagues promised and worldwide events foretold somehow completely went under the radar of worldwide history. There is no mass account of the anti-christ, and two thirds of the population being destroyed or any of that. One would think if these things happened in 70 AD that there would have been more of an account worldwide. If I explained things this way to people here in Japan, they would just scratch their head and say, "that's just historically wrong, you want me to believe THAT?". The Bible isn't outside of world history. It's the beginning of it and the basis of it. World history testifies to the validity and accuracy of the Bible, that is of course unless we choose to believe that Christ has already returned and the prophecies have been fulfilled, then we're flat on our face, and can never tell anyone that the Bible has any accurate historical basis. It will either all line up with history, or it all falls apart.

Now I've many times seen the Pretter switch gears into "what does the word 'world' really mean here" mode, but lets not even go that far. If you want to interpret world as being the known world at the time, and the super power of the world at the time, that's fine, but then you'd actually better start getting pretty afraid, because if we wish to be consistent we then have to assume that when Christ takes away the sins of the world that He only takes away the sins of that world, the known world at the time. Then it would appear that in John 3:16 That God only loved that definition of the world. Just do a word search of world or earth in the Bible, and the inconsistencies will instantly pop up.

There is too much in biblical prophecy speaking on a world wide scale that would point to any of this being accomplished and completed yet. Also if we're to think Revelation is complete and the prophecy's are fulfilled we're stuck with buggers like this Revelation 21:1
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
Just to make sure that I hadn't missed Christ's second coming and the fulfillment of prophecy, I looked out my window before I typed this, and yup, there was the sea, still there.

We must be consistent when viewing the Word of God. The trademarks of the cults and the heretical views are inconsistency, subjective doctrinal revelation, and the almighty double standard.

It would take pages to even start pointing out the inconsistencies and double standards written in the post by savannah, and I honestly don't have the drive to do that at the moment, when I'm sure there are many other men and women on this site who won't be scared to step up to the plate for sound doctrine, and the integrity of God's Word.

 2010/5/29 4:37









 Re:



YES! By the time I had finished posting I noticed that these two had sprung up below my own. If you want some rock solid doctrinal study you NEED to check out this ministry. I've met this man personally and have had the fantastic opportunity to sit under his teaching on several occasions. A true completed Jew to reckon with. Please do yourself a favor and check him and his ministry out.

Edit: I hadn't even read this article before I initially posted, I'm just familiar with Prasch's ministry and teaching. However now, after reading it, I cannot recommend it enough!
What was written in this article is HIGHLY pertinent to what has been discussed on this thread so far. If anyone with an open mind for Biblical truth is looking for some solid teaching on the prophetic and touching on the end times, I highly implore you to check this article out for yourselves.

 2010/5/29 4:42









 Re:

Quote:
Great advice Snuf. Are you willing to do the same?



Yes Miccah!

 2010/5/29 14:14









 Re:

Quote:
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' [a] In the middle of the 'seven' [b] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. [c] " [d]



The KJV says it differently, a lot differently.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The "one week" is the final week of the 70 weeks of Daniel.

After threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off. After the 69 week is the 70th, it was in this week that the Messiah would be cut off, and Jesus was cut off in the middle of that week and caused the sacrifices to cease.

And for[and because of] the overspreading of abominations he[Jesus] would make it desolate.

The Roman Army was used by God to bring judgement to the city of Jerusalem. See reference of God using another Army, especially verse 20.

Ezek 29:17- 20 And it came to pass in the seven and twentieth year, in the first month, in the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
[18] Son of man, Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon caused his army to serve a great service against Tyrus: every head was made bald, and every shoulder was peeled: yet had he no wages, nor his army, for Tyrus, for the service that he had served against it:
[19] Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will give the land of Egypt unto Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon; and he shall take her multitude, and take her spoil, and take her prey; and it shall be the wages for his army.
[20] I have given him the land of Egypt for his labour wherewith he served against it, because they wrought for me, saith the Lord GOD.

Matt 23:37,38 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

"Even unto the consummation"

The end of the 70 weeks which the New Testament writers understood as the last days, latter times.

"and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Your NIV says it so much differently that I question the translators motive.

We read in verse 24 that this prophecy is speaking about "The People and their "Holy City".

"And that determined" means that which has been decreed.

All the prophets speak as one, there is no private interpretation, it all fits together.

In Ezekiel 5

[1] And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's rasor, and cause it to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weight, and divide the hair.

The Judgement is set

[2] Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them.

Rome had a 3 1/2 year siege in 66AD.

1/3 died, 1/3 were taken slaves and sent into all Rome, and the sword would follow them.

[3] Thou shalt also take thereof a few in number, and bind them in thy skirts.

A remnant was to be saved before the desolation which many were saved, "Such as should be saved".

[4] Then take of them again, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire; for thereof shall a fire come forth into all the house of Israel.

Take those that have been saved and put them through the fire to purify them. (Daniel 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried)


[5] Thus saith the Lord GOD; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her.

[6] And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them.

[7] Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye multiplied more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my judgments, neither have done according to the judgments of the nations that are round about you;
[8] Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, am against thee, and will execute judgments in the midst of thee in the sight of the nations.

[9] And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all thine abominations.
[10] Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments in thee, and the whole remnant of thee will I scatter into all the winds.

Josephus confirms this in his Annals of Jewish history in the first century when they were in Great Straights under the siege of the Romans.


[11] Wherefore, as I live, saith the Lord GOD; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity.

[12] A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.

[13] Thus shall mine anger be accomplished, and I will cause my fury to rest upon them, and I will be comforted: and they shall know that I the LORD have spoken it in my zeal, when I have accomplished my fury in them.
[14] Moreover I will make thee waste, and a reproach among the nations that are round about thee, in the sight of all that pass by.

[15] So it shall be a reproach and a taunt, an instruction and an astonishment unto the nations that are round about thee, when I shall execute judgments in thee in anger and in fury and in furious rebukes. I the LORD have spoken it.
[16] When I shall send upon them the evil arrows of famine, which shall be for their destruction, and which I will send to destroy you: and I will increase the famine upon you, and will break your staff of bread:

[17] So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee; and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it.

1Thess 2:14-16 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
[15] Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
[16] Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.





 2010/5/29 15:02









 Re: This is why there is a deference.

http://www.illuminati-news.com/bacon-shakespeare-james1.htm

 2010/5/30 23:17









 Re: PLEASE?




Nowhere in the text does it say this. The poster should beware of the NIV he quotes and study to show himself approved of God.



Reply: did you know that King James was the grand mater of the masons and that the King James version of the bible was edited by Shakespeare a Rosicrucians both of these secret societies have cultic roots.

King James - The Founder of Freemason Lodges
The KJV - A Freemason Bible

The history of King James' role in the formation of Freemasonry is mandatory reading in the Hiram Key book of Masonic scrolls attempting to link Christ with the Pharaohs.
Freemasonry, in its present form, came into being through the Lodge system, established under the auspices of King James VI of Scotland, (later King James I of England), the only son of Roman Catholic Mary Queen of Scots. At the age of 37, two years after becoming a Mason, James became the first Stuart king of England and immediately began to persecute the Puritans, rejecting their petition to reform the Church of England along biblical lines.
James was initiated into Freemasonry, into the Lodge of Scoon and Perth in 1601, at the age of 35. Fifteen years after taking active control of Scotland and five years before becoming English monarch, he ordered that the Masonic structure be given leadership and organization. He made a senior Mason, named William Schaw, his General Warden of the Craft, and instructed Schaw to revamp the entire structure of Freemasonry into what it became today. Schaw commenced this project on 28th December 1598, on the orders of James.
To this day, the 1611 edition of the King James Bible remains the Freemason Bible and is the edition conventionally used in secret Masonic temple rituals.
Moriel does not, however believe that the Masonic association with the KJV or the Freemasonry of King James, founder of the Masonic Lodge system, detracts from the validity of this outdated but valid translation of the Bible. Nonetheless, it is the Freemason Bible and has been from its inception, commissioned and authorized by the same Freemason King who commissioned and authorized the Masonic Lodge structure. We can only speculate how many members of the KJV Only cult are in fact Freemasons. (Moriel thanks Mrs Sara Robinson for providing excerpts of The Hiram Key)

From Ralegh's History of the World.
Many documents influenced by Baconian philosophy--or intended m conceal Baconian or Rosicrucian cryptograms--use certain conventional designs at the beginning and end of chapters, which reveal to the initiated the presence of concealed information. The above ornamental has long been accepted as of the presence of Baconian influence and is to be found only in a certain number of rare volumes, all of which contain Baconian cryptograms. These cipher messages were placed in the books either by Bacon himself or by contemporaneous and subsequent authors belonging to the same secret society which Bacon served with his remarkable knowledge of ciphers and enigmas. Variants of this headpiece adorn the Great Shakespearian Folio (1623); Bacon's Novum Organum (1620); the St. JAMES BIBLE (1611); Spencer's Faerie Queene (1611); and Sir Walter Ralegh's History of the World (1614) (SeeAmerican Baconiana.)

 2010/5/31 14:05









 Re:

Oh brother... ignorance doth abound!

80% of the KJV is the direct translation that resulted from William Tyndale's work in the 1530's. The only thing King James did was authorize the translation be made. In that time and place that was his obligation. That's it. He had nothing to do with the translating work, and if folks would do their homework they would know this.

During Queen Elizabeth's reign there had been close to 130 versions of the New Testament and the Bible circulating. Authorizing this translation was an attempt to bring some clarity and unity to the translation into English. That is why it was "authorized".

But anyway, they found that William Tyndale did a remarkable job in translating... and that's why if you stand the KJV up side by side with the Tyndale Bible there is very little difference.

Tyndale was certainly not a Mason. And neither were any of the translators in 1611 as far as I have been able to find. (If someone can prove otherwise, please tell us)

It's also wise to look into the methods that were used in the translating work, and also in the lives of the translators themselves.

I also find it inflammatory to say "KJV Only Cult". If these people are teaching the truth about salvation they are not a "Cult". This is the kind of junk ignorant people throw around in debates to make the other side look bad without actually presenting any facts.

This needs to stop.

Are there things wrong with the KJV Only crowd? Some of them yes. Does that make them a cult? No. Thats just stupid. If they are preaching salvation thru faith alone, thru Christ alone... they are not a cult. A cult is a religious system that is teaching "another gospel".

It would be nice if some folks on here would actually study a little bit before coming on here and making themselves look foolish.

Fact is most Christians today don't know what they are talking about on this subject, and that goes on both sides. But the ignorance on the side that have disgarded the KJV because it's "too hard to understand" have bought into lies, rumors and faulty reasoning. A lot of them propogated by ignorant pastors and publishing companies that make billions of $$$ printing and copyrighting new modern translations.

Krispy

 2010/5/31 14:22









 Re:


I personal feel more comfortable with the more modern translations. I DO however use multiple translations in my study. With out the Holy Spirit revealing the scripture none of us will understand.


www.cuttingedge.org/news/k1002.cfm


Daniel 12:8-13 (English Standard Version)

8I heard,(A) but I did not understand. Then I said, "O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?" 9He said,(B) "Go your way, Daniel,(C) for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. 10(D) Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but(E) the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand,(F) but those who are wise shall understand. 11And from the time that(G) the regular burnt offering is taken away and(H) the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days. 12(I) Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days. 13(J) But go your way till the end.(K) And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at(L) the end of the days."


we should all make sure we are in a position to hear correctly.

Revelation 1:3 (King James Version)

3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.


Revelation 13:9-10 (New International Version)

9He who has an ear, let him hear.
10If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity he will go.
If anyone is to be killed[a] with the sword,
with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

 2010/5/31 15:18









 Re:

Absolutely... without the Holy Spirit we can't understand scripture.

Krispy

 2010/5/31 16:13









 Re: making themselves look foolish


Rosicrucians and Freemasons led by Sir Francis Bacon had their hands all over the original 1611 King James Bible from 1610-1611. The first king James bible was introduced with satanic symbolism. You can check out to see who is www.cuttingedge.org/news/k1002.cfm really ignorant why don't you doth that.


CULT: Jehovah Witnesses have a bible? The church of latter day saints have a bible the catholics have a bible oh wait and so do the masons it is called the KJV. The devil preached the word of God to the Word of God, give me a break.I WOULD RATHER USE MULTIPLIABLE VERSIONS. Now excuse me while I crawl back on the alter.


will some body please answer the question?

 2010/5/31 16:40





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