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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Does anyone know of a solid biblical response to MacArthur's sermons on tongues and spiritual gifts?

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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707


Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Who sends the Comforter and why?

Jesus Christ sends the Comforter by and through the Father.

Only one reason, to bring to the Body of Christ all that Jesus is, was and will be to His Church upon this Rock; That Jesus Christ is the Son of God and by Jesus are all that the Father has given Him saved.

This is the One Spirit we are all baptized into at our new birth. We don't get parts and peaces of the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit and even the Father who through and with His Son make their abode with us, ONE SPIRIT, plane and simple. We don't have to ask for this, it is God who goes into the world and hires laborers for His Vineyard, Who all get the same benifit from His hireing, One Salvation, One Baptism through One God The Three in One who is all and in all.

Now Spiritual gifts; 1 Corinthians 12:1-3 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

This is the first and most important gift; "Jesus is Lord".

Sign gifts, distributed by the will of God. Not by man in any way, except, desire the greater gifts.

Only God gives gifts and only the Holy Spirit distrubutes them as He see's fit.

1 Corinthians 12:11-13 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as ((((he will.)))) For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

Matthew 20:1-16 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way. Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise. And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive. So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

There is a better way than gifts; 1 Corinthians 12:28-31 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

"Covet earnstly"; Strong's Greek Dictionary
2206. zeloo
Search for G2206 in KJVSL
zhlow zeloo dzay-lo'-o
from 2205; to have warmth of feeling for or against:--affect, covet (earnestly), (have) desire, (move with) envy, be jealous over, (be) zealous(-ly affect).

Not Ask.

The better way than gifts; What is the first thing to do without? 1 Corinthians 13:1-2 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

The Love of God that surpasses all understanding, which is Brendas', mine and all who are here.

In Christ: Phillip


 2010/5/20 22:13Profile


The better way than gifts

He is not saying that Charity far outweighs all gifts. He is saying that if you desire spiritual gifts, seek them through love, because "Faith worketh by love".

1 Corinthians 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

1 Corinthians 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

Look at that. We see men today who have the gifts and have little charity. Paul is saying, the gifts work better through charity, because Charity suffereth long, it's kind, it doesn't envy, it vaunteth not itself and doesn't puff up.

Knowledge without Charity, puffeth up.
Wisdom without Charity, puffeth up.
Faith without Charity, puffeth up.

The five fold ministry without charity, puffeth up.

Love is the fulfillment of the law.

 2010/5/20 22:25

Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2077

 Re: Tongues and That Which Is Perfect

The Gift of Tongues and That Which Is Perfect

If there are prophecies, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; or knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when that which is perfect comes, that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror, in an enigma, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall fully know just as I am fully known.
(I Cor. 13:8-12)

That Which Is Perfect

In the passage quoted above, the Apostle Paul taught that at the coming of "that which is perfect," three things were to happen: "Prophecies" would be abolished, "knowledge" (supernaturally revealed knowledge) would be abolished, and "tongues" (supernaturally acquired speaking of languages) would cease. "Prophecies,: "knowledge," and "tongues" were things that were "in part," incomplete or imperfect. Paul compared having them to still being a child and to looking through a mirror dimly instead of "face to face, and the doing away of those things as the coming of maturity (perfection).

Based on Paul's words in this passage, the only question as to whether or not the gift of "tongues" exists today as it did in Bible times is a question of timing: Has "that which is perfect" come?" If it has, then tongues have ceased. But if "that which is perfect" has not yet come, then tongues have not ceased and God has meant for tongues to continue on throughout the centuries as a normal practice in the Church up to our present day.

First, to determine whether or not "that which is perfect" has come we must determine exactly what "that which is perfect" is. The Greek word for "perfect" here is telios, and it means "complete," "full grown" or "mature." It refers to something that has been brought to its end or goal. Paul was looking forward to a coming maturity or completeness.

There are two other places in the New Testament that speak of that perfection to which Paul and the 1st-century Church were hoping to attain. From those two passages and their contexts we will be able to determine exactly what "that which is perfect" was to be, and also when it was to come. The two references are Eph. 4:13 and Heb. 9:11. Let us first look at Eph. 4:13:

Ephesians 4:13
The Perfect Man, The Temple of God

...until we all may come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown [TELIOS] man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ...."

Here we see that "that which is perfect" was to be the full-grown Body of Christ, the mature Church." God was building up Christ's Body, the Church, through the gifts of the Holy Spirit to the end that the Church would grow up in Christ-likeness unto the mature or perfect (telios) Man (Eph. 4:11-13).

And Eph. 2:21 teaches us exactly what this final perfection of the Body of Christ was to mean:" When the Church finally reached maturity or perfection through the gifts of the Holy Spirit, it was to become God's Temple." Through the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the Church was "being built together into a Dwelling-place of God in the Spirit" (Eph. 2:22)." The Apostle Peter also referred to that future perfection when he wrote, " also as living stones are being built a spiritual house...." (I Peter 2:25)

That which is perfect" then was to come by means of the Holy Spirit and was to be the consummation of the work of the Holy Spirit." The gifts of the Holy Spirit were given to the end that the Body of Christ (the Church) would eventually become the perfect (telios) Dwelling/Temple/Tabernacle of God.

Now according to the Bible, when exactly in history was the work of the Holy Spirit in perfecting the Body of Christ to be consummated or finished so that the perfect Temple of God would be come in its fullness bringing about the cessation of tongues?" To answer this, let's look at the final New Testament reference to the coming of "that which is perfect."

Hebrews 9:11
The Perfect Tabernacle and the Imperfect Tabernacle

But Christ having appeared as a High Priest of the coming good things, through the greater and more perfect (TELIOS) Tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation....

The "more perfect Tabernacle" here is that heavenly "Temple" or "Dwelling" unto which the Church was growing through the power of the Holy Spirit in Eph. 2:21,22." It corresponds to the heavenly "building," "house" and "home" with which the Church was expecting to be clothed in II Cor. 5:1,2,6; it is the "Abode" which the Father and the Son were going to make within believers (Jn. 14:23); it is the promised "Tabernacle of God among men" which the Church was anxiously awaiting (Rev. 21:3; 22:7,10,12,20)." It was to be the formation of Christ in the Church which Paul was eagerly expecting in Gal. 4:19." It was to be the realization of the first-century Church's hope of glory: "Christ in you" (Col. 1:27)." In very truth, it is that Kingdom which Jesus said is "within you" (Lk. 17:21).

When the book of Hebrews was written (c. A.D. 66), the saints knew that the Way into the heavenly, telios Tabernacle or Sanctuary (the face-to-Face Presence of God) had not yet been manifest to all the saints (cf. Heb. 11:39,40) because the first, earthly tabernacle was still standing (Heb. 9:8,9)." In other words, as long as the worldly, fleshly, old-testament tabernacle/temple of God was still standing, then "that which is perfect" ("the more perfect Tabernacle", the Temple of God; the complete, blood- perfected Church) had not yet come in its fullness." As long as the imperfect earthly house of God remained standing and its sinful ministers were still in power, the "more perfect tabernacle" was not yet established with finality in Christ's true people.

The Throwing Down of the Hand-Made Tabernacle

In light of the above, we are now in a position to answer the question, When in history did the Tabernacle/Temple/Body "which is perfect" come? The answer is, When the tabernacle/temple/body which was imperfect went; that is to say, when the old-testament temple was thrown down and the old-testament world and way of worship passed away and vanished (Heb. 8:13)." At that time, tongues ceased.

Jesus said concerning the old, imperfect temple at earthly Jerusalem,

Do you not see all these things?" [the beautiful stones and gifts and buildings of the temple]" "Truly I say to you, there shall not be left here one stone on a stone which shall not be thrown down."

In A.D. 70, about 40 years after Jesus' prophecy, the old temple and the old covenant world were thrown down." God's heavenly Temple was then completely established among men." That which is telios had come!" God gathered His elect into His House (Kingdom) when the earthly, hand-made" house was thrown down (II Cor. 5:1)." The Church was complete in the New Covenant Presence of Christ.

To sum up, prophecy, knowledge and tongues came to an end when:

1. the Church became the TELIOS Tabernacle/Temple/Body of God through the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit,

2. when the Way into the heavenly, TELIOS Tabernacle of God was made manifest to all the saints,

3. when the non-telios, old testament tabernacle was thrown down by the judgment of God and the saints in the consummation of the old covenant age in A.D. 70.

I Cor. 14:21 and 22
Tongues, a Sign of Israel's Destruction in A.D. 70

The gift of tongues was given in the Last Days of the old covenant age as part of the process of covenantal transformation." It was a sign of the then-impending end of the old covenant (cf. Heb. 8:13):

It has been written in the Law, 'By other tongues and by other lips I will speak to this people, and even so they will not hear Me, says the Lord.'" So that tongues are not a sign to those believing, but to those not believing." (I Cor. 14:21,22a)

Paul quoted this passage from Isa. 28:11 and 12 where Isaiah in his day warned of the approaching invasion of apostate Israel by the Assyrians, a foreign nation which spoke in a foreign tongue." In the first century A.D., God gave the sign of "tongues" to apostate Israel ("those not believing") as a warning of impending doom for themselves, their temple and their city." But as Isaiah had predicted, "they would not listen."" (cf. Deut. 28:49 and Jer. 5:15)" Their house was left to them desolate, and they were destroyed in A.D. 70." The Kingdom was taken from them and was given to the blood-perfected Church --the true Nation, House, Body, Temple and City of God.

Tongues Have Ceased

Now if we no longer live in the era of covenantal transition wherein God was changing His dwelling from the symbolic, man-made temple to the true, heavenly Temple in the heart of His redeemed people; and if the destruction of unbelieving, old covenant Israel and its imperfect temple took place in A.D. 70, then it is manifest that tongues ceased by A.D. 70.

Does this mean that no one ever speaks in tongues today?" Surely, if God wants someone to miraculously speak in another language, then that's what God will cause to happen." God can do whatever He wants." But the question should not be so much whether or not anyone ever speaks in another language by the Spirit of God today; the question should be whether or not Christians speak in tongues en masse as they did in the first century.

It has been taught by some lately that God has re-poured His Spirit upon all flesh and has re-started the first-century tongues movement in our day because we are now, again, in "the last days."" But why would God return His people to those imperfect, partial things which were to exist only while the old testament form of worship was still being imposed upon fleshly Israel in its last waning years?" Are we to believe that God will return His people to the days of the child (the old testament age; cf. Gal. 4:1-7)?" Will we have to go back to the days of transition (from Biblical Judaism to Christianity, from old covenant to New Covenant) when God's people saw Christ as through a mirror in dimness and not face to face as we do now since Christ long ago removed the veil at the Consummation of the old-testament age in A.D. 70 (II Cor. 3:13-16)?

The condemning, old (covenant) things passed away long ago." All (covenant) things were made new." Since the old-testament temple fell, Christ in the heart is forever the true "Tabernacle of God among men." Now in Christ our Redeemer -our Forgiver- the Church is enabled to realize the chief End of mankind: to love God with all his heart, soul, mind, and body; and to love his neighbor as himself." Revelation (prophecy, knowledge and tongues) ceased, but the love of God in our hearts remains (II Cor. 3:11)." Amen.

by David Green

 2010/5/20 23:47Profile

Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257



I went back and read over this thread and because of Brenda’s experience with the charismatic’s and her reading of other errors in church history she has formed her belief that no one today can have a genuine baptism with the evidence of speaking in an unknown tongue to the one speaking. She is of the conclusion that Smith Wigglesworth and many of us on here that have received the baptism with the evidence of speaking in other tongues have received another spirit that is demonic.

I want everyone to know that I have no ill will toward Brenda but sadness in my heart for her because of her conclusions. I did fear for her at first because of her accusations and I did so much want to correct her having received and known the truth. But who am I to correct her or who am I to fear for her for I am nothing and would be lost without His grace.

Just remember though Brenda that the bible we hold to and the scriptures that we study are the one’s written down by men moved by the Holy Ghost. The covenant that we are in is the everlasting covenant of the blood of Jesus and every word we read and study in the New Testament were words written by Holy Ghost filled men who spoke in other tongues as the spirit gave them utterance.

As I do not want you to be deceived and receive another spirit that is false I really do hope that God will open your eyes to the truth about genuine tongues that can accompany the baptism in the Holy Ghost when God so chooses.

I do apologize where I may have tried to put the fear of God in you because of your accusations concerning tongues because I am human and by no means have reached the state of perfection.

I also like for you to know that although I believe you need God’s forgiveness for your accusations, that I have forgiven you already as soon as you implied that I and others have received a demon because we received the same similar like experience of those in the beginning of the church because we heard ourselves speak in other tongues. I will not reject it just as others will not because it is the experience of the new covenant.

Although at one time you and others would have discouraged me from seeking the baptism but because it has already happened to me you are way too late. I remember years ago I almost came to the same conclusions as you when I was around some charismatic people who were praying for me and trying to get me to speak in tongues and their was this horrible feeling in my heart and I immediately stop and left from there because I didn’t like what I was feeling and didn’t want to be deceived.

Here is a little of my testimony and it won’t offend me if you don’t believe it or think that I received another spirit not of God because I test everything by the word of God.

My own experience of the Holy Spirit at one time was not what I thought the scriptures declared. I wanted so much to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit just like they did in Acts. I kept going on but deep down there was a little doubt and I always believed that God was going to show me where I was lacking.

Then one day after the death of a friend something traumatic happen in my that I won’t go into details right now but I began to seek God in prayer all during the day and night like never before. I didn’t know until later that on that Friday night between 11 and 12 o’clock being 10 days of seeking God continually that God was going to fill me with the Holy Spirit like nothing I had ever experience in my life.

I will never forget the experience, I was kneeling beside the bed praying as humbly as I have ever pray saying these words “Father I come to thee in the only name I know how to come, in the name of Jesus thy son and I come not because I’ve been a good boy but on the ground of the blood of Jesus” that is all I remember saying when all of a sudden I found myself standing with my hands raised up shouting so loud that a thought came in my mind of “Lord I’m going wake everybody in (city I was in) hollering like this. The next thing I notice as I looked down it looked like my feet and legs were going a thousand miles an hour. The next thought I had was to listen at what I was saying and it wasn’t English but it was flowing out my month fluently like a river. The next thing I did was stop and started praising God in English. I could go and on but for the next two months there were phenomenal things happening in my life.

I didn’t learned to say a few words or repeat something someone said or even thoughts that arose in my mind like I have heard others say happened to them when they were baptized. I was filled to overflowing with the most wonderful feeling I have ever experience in my life and I found myself speaking and moving in the Holy Ghost and I was not expecting it at all because I was only seeking God.

I have no doubt whatsoever that I spoke in tongues as the Spirit of God gave the utterance. I have come to believe that there are a lot of people who have learned to say a few words thinking they have the baptism but no power in their lives. The true baptism with the Holy Ghost comes with power.

Later that very night I experience a spirit trying to deceive me and I rebuked it in the name of Jesus and it left me immediately. Praise be unto God. I will stop for now.

I am very much content with this being my last post or with the Lord giving me liberty to post again. I am not my own for I have been bought with a price.

Blessings to all!

Edit: Brethren,

I would just simply like to clarify something here concerning my bold testimony.

Please, after reading what I wrote again, I don’t want anyone on here to think that I think that I have received more light than anyone else or that my experience is greater than yours.

I also don’t want any of you to think that I think your experience of the Holy Spirit in your life was not from God because you have not spoken in tongues or because your experience was different than mind. There are many different experiences in the bible and among the people of God but as long as we test it by the word of God then we can have confidence.

Any experience that leads us away from the word of God and does not lead us to a sanctified life filled with the fruit of the Holy Spirit and cause us to Love God and his word greater should be rejected. But let us not reject the experience that God does in our life.

The reason I gave my testimony is because I am confident of what God has done in my life and you should be also. We do not need to let Brenda or anyone else slander the experience that God has done in our life. She has her mind made up concerning her conclusions and that is all the light she wants and she will stay with the teachings of men that are in the same camp of her conclusions.

 2010/5/20 23:48Profile

Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re: Savannah

To be fair Savannah I think you should be honest and state that all of this proof-texting is the result of a Pre-disposed Amillenial viewpoint which is a systematic theology, based on a man-made hermeneutic and pre-determined assumptions that cannot be proven confidently, and not a simple contextual interpretation. One must accept that Revelation is fulfilled in order to be able to come to the conclusions you present.

This is all I will say about it, I have no intention of debating it. I only say this to ask you to be honest about the intention behind such a post, as everyone on this thread is endeavoring to do so. I ask this in humility brother.

***Edit*** I presume A-Mill, but I guess it could be preterist. I am not sure I always understand the distinctives between those two views. Please forgive me if I type-casted the wrong one.

Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/5/21 0:25Profile

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


The objective of the gifts of the Spirit is edification. That has to be the question; does 'it' edify? When we say edify we are meaning to 'build.' Knowledge puffs up but charity builds-up (edifies for example). Notice how this plays out in the subject of glossa (tongues).

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. (I Corinthians 14:4)

Notice here that Paul is saying that he is praying but his understanding is not fruitful. This means clearly that he does not understand what he is saying.

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. (I Corinthians 14:2)

Notice again that glossa (tongues) is God-wards. Paul said his spirit was praying and here we see that only God understands the prayers. Why? They are mysteries (μυστήριον). This word has a history. It is found just 8 times in the Old Testament (Septuagint LXX Greek Old Testament). All 8 occurrences are in the book of Daniel:

Dan. 2:18 That they would desire mercies of the God of heaven concerning this secret; that Daniel and his fellows should not perish with the rest of the wise men of Babylon. (SECRET)

Dan. 2:19 Then was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a night vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven. (SECRET)

Dan. 2:27 Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, shew unto the king; (SECRET)

Dan. 2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these; (SECRETS)

Dan. 2:29 As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass. (SECRETS)

Dan. 2:30 But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart. (SECRET)

Dan. 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret. (SECRET)

Dan. 4:9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof. (SECRET)

What did Daniel say? He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him. (Daniel 2:22) Daniel is known for warning Nebuchadnezzar of things that were coming by revelation. God gave Daniel the interpretation of these mysteries.

So we see then that if the mysteries are going to be useful to the Body at large they need to be interpreted. For Nebuchadnezzar an uninterpreted mystery was useless. The difference if that Paul describes not only speaking in mysteries in glossa, but praying mysteries in glossa. Why is this important?

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. (Romans 8:26-27)

The phrase, 'cannot be uttered' is actually just one Greek word ἀλαλήτοις and is a hapax legomenon (only used once in the Bible). It's true meaning is in question in my view. It could mean words that cannot be said because they are secretive (not meant to be widely known). I don't think we can trace a direct line to I Corinthians 14:2, but there is this sense that the Holy Spirit makes intercession for us according to the will of God in a way that we cannot rightly understand. For glossa (tongues) this is where interpretation comes in.

I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. (I Corinthians 14:5)

These are two spirituals here (glossa or tongues and prophesy). You will know that prophecy and prayer are linked (I Corinthians 11:5). Tongues is a God-wards phenomena in prayer containing revelation just like prophesy. The difference is that tongues can be interpreted so as to provide insight into what the Spirit is praying on our behalf. Example?

And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there: Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. (Acts 20:22-23) It is quite possible that in every place Paul went, as prayer was made and an interpretation given a mystery was revealed. That mystery, having been prayed about by the Holy Spirit through some individual (possibly) was consistently interpreted to reveal that trouble was coming for Paul. This served both the purpose of making a request known to God that Paul himself had no way of knowing about, while at the same time serving the function of prophetic revelation. In this was prophesy and prayer are linked and a twofold benefit revealed.

Robert Wurtz II

 2010/5/21 0:35Profile

Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re: JoanM

I really would like the bigger issue to be discussed.

I have been praying all afternoon about answering what I think that it is. I am hesitant to do so, because the time it would take to articulate why I said that is not in my grasp at the moment. Not to mention my prayers and thoughts, and all the scriptures are still a degree of a mystery to me, as I have been contemplating, off and on, for probably a year or two the reason why I said that.

Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/5/21 1:07Profile

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


by David Green

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (I Corinthians 13:12)

Since the canon has closed do believers know God even as God knows us? Have men seen God face to face? The phrase 'face-to-face' is πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον in Greek and it has a history.

And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved (Genesis 32:31).

This was when Jacob wrestled with the angel. In Hebrew the words are פָּנִים אֶל־פָּנִים and can be translated as, 'the presence of God'. In Hebrew idiom words are doubled up for emphasis. King of kings means the ultimate king. Lord of lords means the ultimate lord. Song of songs, etc. We have here in our English 'face to face' that means in the presence of God in the ultimate sense. It is the exact word usage as describes how Moses was 'face to face' with God in the mountain. Right now we cannot properly say that we are in the presence of God in that sense. The people of Israel may have held in their hands what would ultimately came to be the 39 of the 66 books of the canon, but they were not in a face to face with God.

Moreover, the entire New Testament is an expression of how God's people are to live by every word that is proceeding from the Mouth of God. The Covenant provides for the very dynamic that is trying to be explained away. Otherwise we had been better off under the Old Covenant because at least then God spoke to the people in real time. They had forgiveness and the voice of God. Shall we expect less?

Robert Wurtz II

 2010/5/21 1:09Profile

Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re: ChrisJD

It is fire that reveals the true nature of something. Job had the testimony of God, that he was one that shunned evil, but was Job perfect? Was he a full and adaquate expresion of the very image of God? Not so, and the fire of his trials would reveal it to be so, yet he said he knew that God knew the way he took, and that when he had come through, he would come through as gold. Yet even gold has levels of purity and imperfection. And when Job, who was not 'the image' of God, saw God Himself, he said, "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." Fire and trials will reveal what we are.

I think this way a lot of times too brother, so I have to admit, that this statement took a lot of wind out of my sails. I am not sure how to respond. My flesh has responses, my spirit does as well, and so does my mind have hundreds of biblical ways to reply. However the letter killeth and the Spirit maketh alive. This is a good reminder to remain humble and ever-bent before the throne of grace brother. Willing to receive good and bad at the hand of the Lord..."though He slay me."

Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/5/21 1:17Profile

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


When will the face-to-face take place? What is our experience now?

They that have been Baptized into Jesus Christ by the Spirit have the earnest of the inheritance.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14)

We have the 'earnest' of our inheritance now with the full inheritance to be provided later; that is the 'face-to-face.' In other words the 'face-to-face' with God is what Adam lost; we have an earnest of that now but will fully inherit that face-to-face fellowship when we are absent from the body and present with the Lord; when we depart to be with Christ which is far better, etc.

Robert Wurtz II

 2010/5/21 1:27Profile

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