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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Does anyone know of a solid biblical response to MacArthur's sermons on tongues and spiritual gifts?

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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2012
Joplin, Missouri


ChrisJD: That is the power of the Holy Spirit brother. Praise God.


 2010/5/19 19:49Profile

Joined: 2008/4/7
Posts: 797

 Re: Gifts

I wonder and pray that this post is of some good use. I am one of the hundreds that have only read along this thread with interest. Until last night. I was impressed with the maturity of Spirit, even sweetness, that I experienced as genuine, in which this thread progressed. I have copied a link to this thread for the biblical references.

Should it matter, late last night, I am the one who pm-ed Krautfrau with a reference about the Delphi oracle. I had never taken note that the disruptive/confusion of speaking in tongues without interpretation only got addressed in a letter to the Corinthians to the extent of being addressed in a letter.

Several weeks ago my brother (in both senses) came up stairs to tell me what he happened to find in a secular dictionary about the close proximity of Delphi to Corinth. He said,“Maybe that's one reason there was such a problem in Corinth.” Reading someones question on the thread last night, “Why only in Corinth,” I recalled his discovery. He was not yet asleep and located one of the references. The print was so tiny I greatly truncated the notes I scribbled out and still got an eye-ache that stopped my reading. Sorry.

So, if there was a fault in that showing up in the discussion, a rule not to cut-paste references, or anything, it is mine. Please forgive me.

I still don't know the distance between the cities (how close? Close enough to draw gentile/idol worshipers in? How big a stir DID the early church there make in the local area? People travel these days when there is a religious stir.) In very brief reflection, I thought maybe so. This is a MAYBE SO, in part, explanation. It would be true to form (likely) that Satan planted tares in early congregations. We all know the MANY things that were going on there. We are all in the habit of being sensitive to making application to our lives out of the Word of God. Think of the sermons we've all heard on “The Corinthian Church.” Isn't that where the phrase CARNAL CHRISTIAN comes from? I recall hearing that phrase for years as referring to babies that should be grown more. More recently though, I think Paul Washer among many others refers to CARNAL CHRISTIAN as not even Christians, false converts or deluded in thinking they are born again.

All of these words here are “the argument of 'men'”: interesting to consider, possibly irrelevant, and not the direct Word of God. I am sure we all noticed the moments in various arguments when one poster used a similar but different term when making an opposing argument/point.“ The perils of “the argument of men.”

Is there anyone posting here who has not grown since their new birth? (NO) Anyone with no more need to grow? (NO) Is Washer risking the unpardonable sin, blaspheming the Holy Spirit when he says one claiming to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit is not, possibly call the work of the Holy Spirit, the work (of what), of the flesh? Praise God it becomes increasingly impossible to offend the growing child of God. (Ravinhill rephrase.)

Anyway, I thank God we all take the things of God, His Word, so seriously. Really! And we all know how He adjusts our perspective of Him and ourselves so lovingly. I cannot seem to get away from being filled with the love of His body here. ….. Turning in early tonight.

Made for His pleasure
Joan M

P.S. God is so sweet to me. It being Pentecost Sunday this Sunday, and other things, a pair of quotes/sayings I offered for a reader-board was posted: "It looks like its revival, or ruin, ....or the rapture." AND "The reason we don't miss revival is that we have never been in one." My brother just came home and shared a wonderful revival conversation he had with strangers in a house church who said they loved the recent reader-boards. Fells like a goodnight kiss of encouragement.

 2010/5/20 0:13Profile

 Re: The real issue


In this post I will lay out what I perceive to be the issue here, and later I will address the latest points which have been made.

I feel very encouraged by the level of engagement here on this subject of baptism of the Spirit and tongues and very much touched by the concern that has been shown to me as a sister in Christ. For that I thank you most sincerely. It has been a salve for my soul and it gives me confidence that this discussion will bear some fruit, as I see that I am engaging with sincere honest believers. I have discussed these matters with men of your persuation in the past but I did not find them to be such as you. They just closed down immediately. Here, however, the conversation has progressed to a place where wider issues can be addressed I believe and one I hope where we can both learn and bring glory to God.

Just to put it straight I have not come here with any other motive but to have good discussions and think that this is one of the better forums. I actually decided in the past not to engage on tongues again but seemed to just get drawn into it on here.

So let us step back for a moment and see the wider picture. Although it is true that we carry with us whatever we absorbed from our background, and need time to work through it, my beliefs have nothing to do with my past Calvinism - that has been fully purged from me, it lasting only 7 years after an atheistic upbringing and my exit occuring over 25 years ago and my beliefs are entirely in line with my settled tradition which is of the traditional holiness school rather than those of someone who has just lost their way. I am going through a time of trial but that is entirely in line with my tradition.

What we have here basically, are two completely different types of baptism of the Spirit, they are not the same thing. It is the whole concept which opposes either side. Each of us is convinced that ours is the right one and the other is mistaken. Looking back to history, this is not a new debate - it went on in the 19th century and into the 20th when Pentecostalism arose. Tradional holiness schools denounced the new baptism and seperated themselves from it and it surprises me that Pentecostals today quote writers from that period in support of their doctrines when in fact they were very much opposed to Pentecostalism. One example is Jessie Penn-Lewis who in "War on the Saints," in her notes at the end of the book goes into great detail about what actually happens in what she saw as a counterfeit baptism of the Spirit and how there is demonic possession of the body yes even in believers.

Maybe you will lose interest at his point and write me off as a lost cause but I hope not. I wish to learn more about how you understand the scriptures which I interpret in an entirely different way and I am interested to hear about your experiences. I would like however to say that there was a lot of false teaching and absolute rubbish that was around in the holiness parts of the church, and as Americans maybe you were damaged by some of it but please don`t let that put you off and give me the chance to correct some of those errors brought in by such as Phoebe Palmer.

One of the greatest errors is one mentioned previously, is that one must reach a certain degree of holiness before one can be baptised and I wonder if this was the real reason for the great divide. Of course this makes it works when everything is a gift of God. There is nothing we can do to improve our stature before God, all have sinned and fallen short. All we need to do is to come to Him in our poverty and weakness and He will reach out and change us. Even in the seeing of ourselves as crucified with Christ, that itself is purely through revelation and not something that we can produce in ourselves. Paul say we are to reckon it but it must be directly received from God and then we can reckon or stand on what He has shown.

So maybe you will give me the chance here of laying out my own beliefs on the whole subject of Spirit Baptism, not just tongues and we can look together at the scriptures involved and discuss them to benefit us both. I would just like to add that I do not think that I am beyond deception myself and in my present state I am convinced that there is some deception which is keeping me in it. However, I know perfectly well the doctrines of my tradition, they not in question, I have not forgotten them and studied them extensively previously, reading widely on holiness teachers in the past, my special interest being in the diversion of Keswick teaching from the traditional via Triplex of Christian mysticism.

So brethren lets not let the enemy get in here and cause a retreat to our own seperate corners again and history repeat itself but instead let us have some useful dialogue in the name of our Lord whom we both love.

God bless

 2010/5/20 0:44



I am really pleased that you have decided to join in with this discussion and would like to thank you again for the reference you gve me by pm on the Delphi oracle. It is new to me and very interesting to say the least.


I am sorry you were offended by the way I spoke to Robert, and I agree with you about the value of his contributions elsewhere. However I felt that he was not attempting a serious engagment on this subject, by his own admission he had not kept up with it, and I did not like the way he was attempting to put me down. It was not, I felt in line with the previous respect that has been displayed here between each party.

I do not have an agenda apart from wanting to know the truth and I am not attacking others by stating my belief that tongues are demonic, in fact you are implying the same regarding me - that what I considered the baptism of the Spirit, was a deception and therefore demonic too. But as I have said in my previous post, I hope we can look past these differences and seek the truth together.

brother Frank

I hope that we can do more than agree to disagree. As I have not given my testimony on my baptism of the Spirit but others have done so maybe that should be my next post. Then perhaps you can tell me where it was not scriptural.


Even if brother Frank had not heard about tongues, if he experienced the other baptism that I do not think comes from God then the result would be tongues as this is part of it. Please let us start from the point of acknowledging that we are accusing each other of the same thing and step beyond that to a group of believers who are sincere and who care about each other and let us search the scriptures together.


"The only instances I see of demonic spirits entering people in the new testament were people who were not born again and rebelling against God."

As I said in my last post, revivlaist in the past have written at length about how demons can get into believers.


 2010/5/20 1:23

Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re: Brenda

Wow, thank you so much Brenda for that last post. I actually had contemplated asking why it was that you posted here, and was praying for you and lo and behold you answered the exact question I was wondering about. I feel bad now that I have not yet directly addressed you. My name is Jeremiah and I live on the west coast of America, I have been to Germany before and have a couple believing friends whom live in Stuutgart that I visited there once. I have a tendency to speak in generalities, because to be honest I have seen so much argumentation between believers on forums and I am always worried about its outcome because of Galatians five where it warns that there are those involved in strife, wrath, emulations, and a few other divisive behaviors who will not inherit the kingdom of God. So up till this thread, since I have started paying attention to this forum, I very purposely stay out of the debates, because I really want to be an encouragement.

Honesty with one another and being clear with our intentions is so important. We are told in the word to endeavor to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bonds of peace and your doing exactly that. Thank you so much sister.

One thing that has come to mind in this discussion for your consideration is the story of the blind man, whom the pharisee's questioned and even brought his parents in to verify if he had been truly once blind or not. When the blind man was questioned about the veracity of his claims, his response had absolutely not a single scintilla of "Doctrinal" weight behind it. His only response was, "All I know is I was once blind but now I see." So we can see that his interaction with the Messiah was purely experiential and not based on intellectual ascent.

I suspect to a certain degree it can be the same experience for one who speaks in tongues. "All I know is I was once mute, but now I speak." Although for me this topic, while circulating around tongues, I don't really see tongues as the issue as much as it is actually being discussed. Like you said there is a dichotomy of views about the Nature of the operation of the Spirit in the life of a believer. Tongues is only the surface at which that understanding is clashing.

You are absolutely right to note that the baptism of the Spirit has absolutely nothing to do with a level of holiness whatsoever because look how it all happened with Cornelius. Acts 10:44-48.

I want to use Calvinism as a metaphor...but alas, I refuse to touch that topic on a forum with a ten foot pole.

I too greatly appreciate how little mud has been slung here. It is a sign of maturity. It is no problem to discuss doctrine to the edification of one another. It becomes wrong when we take another persons view, and spatter them with anger and vitriol because they don't see things our way.

We have to remember that we will experience "winds of doctrine," until we completely grow up into him who is the head.

My greatest fear in life as a Christian is becoming a Theological Pharisee. We need salvation from this. And the compassion of Christ to deal with it all I think.

I also wanted to point out that there was a youtube video I watched where a small revival broke out in Alaska and the people began speaking in tongues and they claimed that there was the sound of a jet of fire rushing through the congregation and the entire town burned all of the things that were causing them as a people to live in sin. You can actually here on the recording the sound of the jet over the speaking in tongues. It was interesting I thought.

For the record my exposure to the "pentecostal" or "charismatic" movement is almost null and void even though my "non-denomination" is considered pentecostal to a degree in tradition.

I have never once spoken in tongues in public in front of anyone in my entire life with the exception of the one person who prayed for me to receive the baptism by the laying on of hands.

Yet I speak in tongues on a constant basis in my own personal prayer time when I become frustrated with not knowing what to pray. When I am at the end of my mental rope, and have exhausted myself in intercession for others or in praise, there remains a burning desire to pray to God, but I don't know what to say, and that is almost always where tongues comes into the picture for me. And me writing this is the first time I have ever talked about it to anyone. With maybe the exception of my wife.

Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/5/20 1:26Profile

 Re: My testimony

I have always found that my spiritual growth has been directly related to having the truth in my mind transfered to a deeper level in my being, travelling the distance betwen my head and my heart as it were, and by it, evoking a response deep inside that seems to break down the walls of independence and hardness in my heart to allow love towards God and towards my fellow man to flood in and melt me. So it has always been on the lines of spirit and truth verified by scripture rather than sensations and experiences which are of the soul rather than the spirit.

My first encounter with Christ after an unchurched childhood, showed me that He died for my sins to save ME not mankind in general and that knowledge broke my heart open and my understanding was enlightened regarding all of the questions I had asked myself previously as to whether there was a God or not and whether I was indeed alone in the universe at the mercy of all the winds of fate. Now it was settled and I had received forgiveness for living my life without acknowledging my Maker.

However, I soon saw that I had a problem inside that did not exist before when I was quite unaware of sins and found a struggle to come up to the mark of my calling. I felt quite unable to stand before the throne of God without shame in letting Christ down as the law towered above me adding burden to burden on my back and I sank with the weight.

One day I saw the truth, that nothing we can do can improve our stature before God, and His love for us, and any attempts to do so were works in the flesh. It is by faith we are justified and a small step I took in my powerlessness and poverty of spirit, trusting in His promises transported me into a new place of seeing myself as crucified with Christ, the love that He shed abroad in my heart delivering me from seeing Him as a hard task master.

This was my `breathing on of the Spirit` which I saw happening to the disciples when Jesus went to them after He arose from the dead. It is also what is known as illumination in some circles and is described by some in others as baptism of the Spirit and it certainly felt profound as the freedom it gives is monumental. I felt very much washed inside and at a oneness with the Wesley hymns. At this point and came out of Calvinism.

Later though, I could not put my finger on it but I knew that something was missing and the Lord came to my rescue again with a book I read by Francis Ridley Havergal. In it I was confronted once again by the Holiness of God and found myself once again on my knees in the dust in repentance and sorrow, this time in not walking in the Light fully after the first flash of lightning across the moonless moor.

I made my decision to turn entirely from sin and in an instant He delivered me from my sin nature entirely. This time it was different and not only was my heart pure but it stayed pure without any working on my part. I was living as a new creature and my old nature was destroyed within me - but I knew that I could resurrect it again if I chose. But as it was, I was walking fully in the light, there were no `unintentional sins` it was all pure and light, every thought was for God`s glory everything I did was for His glory, there was nothing in between Him and me. This is divine union. All the day long all of my thought were on my Saviour, nothing could distract me and no circumstance at all interfere with my communion with Him. It did not matter where I was or who I was with, He spoke to me constantly. Also, people would be struck by their sinfulness even if I did not speak about sin, when they were in my presence. Another thing that stood out was that I felt `fixed`, I was in a state of complete psychological wholeness, all of my past being healed. There was no further work of God to be done on me apart from growth in knowledge of Him.

I witnessed to many miracles in this state, healing of others, words of wisdom, authority over nature - and this was what John Wesley looked for in those who claimed entire sanctification - read him and see. I found that I could stop the rain. But the biggest most significant thing was that I could easily obey Christ, it actually was impossible not to do so as my heart was set on that aim.

He also opened up the scriptures to me and gave me understanding of the way of holiness right though the old testament. I could read the stories of others in the past who claimed this baptism and knew that we had experienced the same thing. We spoke the same tongue.

How it is possible to fall from this I do not know, John Wesley and others thought that it is part of the process and it is necessary before full maturity is reached. So that is where I am, waiting and mourning of the loss of my Lord`s nearness but fully trusting Him that He will return with healing in His wings. Amen.

Many read about this sort of thing, but think that a revival has to come before it can happen to them. It is not true, as before there is nothing that is stopping us, no level of achievement in us or in the church - the way is open to all and the only qualification is for us to see our need and come to Christ in all our failures and He will open the door wide and pour out His blessing upon us..

"Come ye unto Me all who are weary and heavy burdened and I will give you Rest"

 2010/5/20 2:12

Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2012
Joplin, Missouri


Think of the sermons we've all heard on “The Corinthian Church.” Isn't that where the phrase CARNAL CHRISTIAN comes from? I recall hearing that phrase for years as referring to babies that should be grown more. More recently though, I think Paul Washer among many others refers to CARNAL CHRISTIAN as not even Christians, false converts or deluded in thinking they are born again.

Joan: It is interesting that just before Paul calls the believers at Corinth "carnal" he refers to them as "sanctified". Thus it is possible, at least in Paul's viewpoint, that a sanctified believer can be carnal. Carnal, by the way, does not mean unrighteous or sinful. It simply means operating out of the flesh rather than out of the spirit. It is the origin of the word carne in the Spanish language which simply means flesh or meat. If I, as a Spirit filled believer, get upset during this discussion and speak harshly out of emotion toward someone, I have not lost my salvation, but have operated carnally, out of my flesh. I need to correct the situation, which is what Paul sought to do. So I don't believe the issue Paul was dealing with was the work of some evil spirit in the Corinthian church. These were born again, sanctified people who were operating out of the flesh rather than the Spirit.


 2010/5/20 7:02Profile


Wecome back my friends
to the show that never ends
we're so glad you could attend
roll up,
move along,
step inside...
step inside...

i am sorry that i have gotten you so worked up emotionally, if that is indeed the case. This was not intended; however when backhanded slaps against others and myself and then implying "oh whatever do you mean" or something of that nature, though not getting emotional about it myself, i tend to get others quite upset: irl and anyway else.

This is my greatest fault outwardly expressed.

What has been seen throughout this thread is the plucking -from the whole post provided- and choosing what should be debated as though you may consider the rest of the information provided you as invalid. Then posing as though the words typed were sincere inquiry, you create a scandalon.

My understanding is that this thread will be seen by more than you or me, and as such, because questions asked seem to imply you directly, they are intended for all to consider.

It'sd seen that i must work quite a bit more on taking the person out of the picture when typing. If what was written regarding your responses was considered too up front and personal, i'm sorry again. (when posting in regards to you at least, after this one, i will not even use your name anymore. There is a reason for messaging on SI forum.

It was figured that since you seemed to be looking for answers rather than trying to prove a point -(which is quite piecemeal to say the least, and seems to regard human assimulation and according knowledge higher than God's revelation of what he openly desires us to understand: (principles and not facts en toto)- all of us would try to provide you answers the best we could. Yet, in your responses, you have gotten argumentative and this edifies nobody, especially when some of we ourselves begin doing the same.

Again, i sincerely regret even answering your posts, or you personally, if that is only what you consider it.

i apologise to you and repent before God.
(i asked myself that same question ending both of our last post towards your... (what was once thought to be sincere seeking).

i could only pray that God will open your eyes, which will not be done as you are hardened in your way, and you close your eyes to the total picture. You are not listening to everything.

God is merciful and you are in His hands, though that mercy might just manifest judgement to save you from yourself.

After this post, you must be left to your own devices. At this point, the best response towrds you is silence.

You just go on ahead and keep on trying to keep God in a box with that pick and choose believe-ism.

He shall show you His way in His time. Any prayers towards this by any of all who have done so, never fell to the ground: wait watch see...

Any thoughts we may consider about having made the grade, being entirely sanctified, are from our own perspective and very stupid to say the least. This is spoken from experience. It was a very very very hard lessons repeated, literally one leg being snapped like a twig so badly, not once, but twice, that even the best doctors in this nation could not repair it.

Jesus, both times, took me in His arms and carried me through until i was fully and completely healed, without any sign of damage, except for scars as a continual reminder to remember.

Jesus Christ is the Great Shepherd who is Mighty to save us to the uttermost!

THIS (human idea of sanctification) IS NOT what God sees and knows about all of us, even of the most sanctified. God uses us in spite of ourselves and not because of us.


I do not read Latin so, in reference to classical texts mentioned, it is of the Greek and Hebrew genres spoken. My Latin is very rusty, however your references to "messenger" (angelos) and sounding brass examples your point from texts read by the upper crust (Latin readers) of these civilizations. Through anthropological studies, it has been found that the common peaople have been found to evidence more 'superstition' than those who governed the activities within every culture studied.

The references from what Clark has written is quite arguable. Even he has framed his words so that they appear to question rather than answer. He is, more often than not, speculating. Some may tend to give a factual credence to such, but if the author is assuming, what am i doing if i advocate such without having truly studied it myself. The results could possibly be more disasterous than even mentioning it in the first place.


Words from dad come back to haunt me here and now:
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink."
" A person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still."

No more waste of what precious time God has given -(for this life,)- in such useless discourse!

Many here have attempted to help you, but it appears that this is not what you really want at all. You are looking for attention and have no intention of changing anything.

Why can't you just directly state your purpose instead of attempting to weild a flimsy sword fencing in cyberspace. Baiting others is deception at it's worst.

You have been offended by me, so i quit.
We all need each other and this is no way to do it.
You have not offended me in the least but instead have re-revealed a valuable lesson:

The passageways
in which
you entered
and the doorways
at the front
of the foreward
sections designated
by the illuminated
emergency exit signs
visible to you
at either the
... or
have been checked
and are clear exits
from the building
in the event
of an emergency:




(on with the show? Nope!)


God's Grace,
namely Jesus Christ
onto all,
gotta' go

Amos 3:3
Jer. 10:23
Prov. 20:23,24
Ps. 32:8,9,10,11
I Jn. 1:6,7,8,9

The doors hydraulic door stopper slowly allows the door to shut with ever so imperceptible jerks. Looking the direction which phanetheus ran across the parking lot, he is nowhere to be seen.

Well, just goes to show ya' folks, when a building is burning, that guy is not sticking around to toast marshmellows for smores.

Maybe he thinks that it's gonna' crash down and continue to burn or something???

Does he know something others are not clear about?

The world will never know.

 2010/5/20 7:59

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


I am sorry you were offended by the way I spoke to Robert, and I agree with you about the value of his contributions elsewhere. However I felt that he was not attempting a serious engagment on this subject, by his own admission he had not kept up with it, and I did not like the way he was attempting to put me down. It was not, I felt in line with the previous respect that has been displayed here between each party.

In other words if one don't agree with Brenda they are putting her down, but Brenda can demonize the church at Corinth, Pentecostals, and Charismatics; Christians that number in the hundreds of millions in this world and they are supposed to sit there and take it? Who do you think you are anyway?

Robert Wurtz II

 2010/5/20 8:28Profile

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


I do not have an agenda apart from wanting to know the truth and I am not attacking others by stating my belief that tongues are demonic, in fact you are implying the same regarding me - that what I considered the baptism of the Spirit, was a deception and therefore demonic too..

How can this be true when one of your arguments is based on the people at Corinth being deceived by the Delphi Oracle?

Robert Wurtz II

 2010/5/20 8:38Profile

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