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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Piper on Predetermined sin

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Joined: 2011/2/23
Posts: 58
Brest, France


I had a fascinating thought this morning meditating on this subject: God is the author and finisher of our faith, not our sin.

AMEN!! God is the author of our salvation, we are the "author" of our own fate


 2011/4/13 10:29Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710


Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

We must reconcile evil in itself and evil formed in a man by the liar and carried away by mans own lust.

James 1:13-14 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Nothing exists without God putting it into existence.

Evil could not exist with God creating it.

In Christ: Phillip


 2011/4/13 20:27Profile



In those verses cited, other versions don't all say evil. Many say calamity or trouble. The word רע can be translated as a few things, including trouble or calamity.

Calamity and evil are two VERY different things. I would study the Hebrew words pretty carefully before you definitively say God is the author of evil. To me that's pretty risky territory. Just a thought.

 2011/4/13 20:40

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710


Isaiah 45:7 I form <yatsar> the light <'owr>, and create <bara'> darkness <choshek>: I make <`asah> peace <shalowm>, and create <bara'> evil <ra`>: I the LORD <Y@hovah> do <`asah> all these things.

Create: Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
1254. bara'
Search for H1254 in KJVSL
arb bara' baw-raw'
a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes):-- choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

Darkness: Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
2822. choshek
Search for H2822 in KJVSL
Kvx choshek kho-shek'
from 2821; the dark; hence (literally) darkness; figuratively, misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness:--dark(-ness), night, obscurity.

peace: Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
7965. shalowm
Search for H7965 in KJVSL
Mwlv shalowm shaw-lome'
or shalom {shaw-lome'}; from 7999; safe, i.e. (figuratively) well, happy, friendly; also (abstractly) welfare, i.e. health, prosperity, peace:--X do, familiar, X fare, favour, + friend, X great, (good) health, (X perfect, such as be at) peace(-able, -ably), prosper(-ity, -ous), rest, safe(-ty), salute, welfare, (X all is, be) well, X wholly.

evil: Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
7451. ra`
Search for H7451 in KJVSL
er ra` rah
from 7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):-- adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease(-ure), distress, evil((- favouredness), man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief(-vous), harm, heavy, hurt(-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief(-vous), misery, naught(-ty), noisome, + not please, sad(-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked(-ly, -ness, one), worse(-st), wretchedness, wrong. (Incl. feminine raaah; as adjective or noun.).

See Hebrew 7489 Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
7489. ra`a`
Search for H7489 in KJVSL
eer ra`a` raw-ah'
a primitive root; properly, to spoil (literally, by breaking to pieces); figuratively, to make (or be) good for nothing, i.e. bad (physically, socially or morally):--afflict, associate selves (by mistake for 7462), break (down, in pieces), + displease, (be, bring, do) evil (doer, entreat, man), show self friendly (by mistake for 7462), do harm, (do) hurt, (behave self, deal) ill, X indeed, do mischief, punish, still, vex, (do) wicked (doer, -ly), be (deal, do) worse.

See Hebrew 7462
See Hebrew 7462: Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
7462. ra`ah
Search for H7462 in KJVSL
her ra`ah raw-aw'
a primitive root; to tend a flock; i.e. pasture it; intransitively, to graze (literally or figuratively); generally to rule; by extension, to associate with (as a friend):--X break, companion, keep company with, devour, eat up, evil entreat, feed, use as a friend, make friendship with, herdman, keep (sheep)(-er), pastor, + shearing house, shepherd, wander, waste.

Did God create the Angle Lucifer? Satan had evil already in him, all it did was raise its ugly head and want to take over in self above God.

This does not make God evil, or He tempt any man with evil, that is our free will.

If there were no darkness, evil, how could we know how good light, Christ is? Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

In Christ: Phillip


 2011/4/14 18:14Profile


EverestoSama is correct in his interpretation of Is 45:7.

Albert Barnes agrees with him and so do most of us.

GOD created all the angels but they were Not created to do evil. That was not GOD's Perfect will.
Yes, it was their freewill as GOD created all of his living creators to have... so that HE is Just when He judges, in that He has Never created autonomotons. His judgments are pure. He doesn't create evil so that He can turn around and judge it.
In that verse - if read by contrasts - ie, darkness vs light and Peace vs evil. Calamity is a very good way to define this evil.

From Albert Barnes -

"And create evil - The parallelism here shows that this is not to be understood in the sense of all evil, but of that which is the opposite of peace and prosperity. That is, God directs judgments, disappointments, trials, and calamities; he has power to suffer the mad passions of people to rage, and to afflict nations with war; he presides over adverse as well as prosperous events. The passage does not prove that God is the author of moral evil, or sin, and such a sentiment is abhorrent to the general strain of the Bible, and to all just views of the character of a holy God."

GOD does not NEED evil to show us what Good is. His perfect will would have been for Adam to eat freely from the Tree of Life and not the forbidden tree -- but in His Foreknowledge He knew the 'choice' the woman and man would make and made provision for them before creation - to Prove that He's created all living creatures with free-will.

GOD does meet out judgments on earth. That is something that we all know - either on a personal level or national, and so forth.

The words in that verse need to be kept in context of one another.

In order to "create evil" one must "have evil IN them" - Scripture tells us that there is No Evil In Him.

Chastisement and punishment are not the creation of evil but judgments or punishments or chastisements in hopes that those under this "evil" that He brings into their lives will repent and turn to Him and Live.

Only being stricken with death, ends the chances to repent.

GOD is not the Author nor the creator of Satan's & man's evil.

There is No "evil" IN Him.

Mal 2:17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?

 2011/4/14 22:38

Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


This thread initially was in reference to John Piper's views, and I have heard him address this idea:

"GOD does not NEED evil to show us what Good is. His perfect will would have been for Adam to eat freely from the Tree of Life and not the forbidden tree"

He would disagree citing Romans 5:

6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

There is a dimension of love man could not have known without the existence of sin. Jesus also says there is no greater love than to lay down one's life for his friends (Jn. 15:15); again this would have been unnecessary in the garden. Part of the absolute beauty of the gospel is that God loves us and gave Himself for us when we deserved everything but that.

Now, Piper would say that this was therefore God's intention from the start. He is the firstborn over all creation and was slain before the foundation of the world. For a man like Piper (pulling off of a man like John Flavel), Christ was first created in God's mind, then a people to save, and a planet to work it all out on. Jesus Christ is not a reaction to a creature's free will; He is the goal of life, the center of creation and history, and of Him, to Him, and through Him are all things. Where else but the cross could God have revealed so much of His love, justice, mercy, grace, kindness, wisdom, power, etc? Piper's series on "Spectacular Sins" treats his position pretty thoroughly. It is available for free mp3 or e-book download at

In regards to your thoughts JIG, Piper is persuaded that God can ordain evil, and not be evil. As mentioned earlier, he cites the story of Joseph and the Crucifixion as evidence of that.


 2011/4/15 16:47Profile


Brother Giggles, I mean no disrespect toward anyone, but what "Piper would say" is of little concern to me. I must sound terribly arrogant to speak like that but the revelation of Christ and through His Word Alone is all that guides my heart and thoughts and I feel he has the cart before the horse in this. I believe with all of my heart in free-will. That in the Mind of GOD that the thought of man came simutaniously with the thought of GOD being also our Savior, because He knew that man would choose what is wrong, just as satan had, because only He is GOD and Perfect.

No intention to debate any further Brother, but I had to express my heart in this. I'm not a 7 pointer and not even a 5 or 4 pointer and am just sad that we need to have any divisions in the Body at all concerning the heart of GOD.
I believe that GOD created mankind to love them and for them of their own choice to love Him in return, as both a Father and a Husband and more - as He called us Brothers & Friends as well, relationally. But I've expressed this thought enough on another thread and will leave this here.

I pray He is Glorified more and more in each of our lives, as time goes on, and I believe He'll answer that prayer, as probably the majority of us are praying that same thing and together. That our love for Him and for all mankind will increase so that we'll be filled with all the fulness of GOD.

GOD Bless and help us all in the days ahead of us.

 2011/4/15 22:41

Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2265

 Re: ISAIAH 45:7

ISAIAH 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

ISAIAH 45:7. Forming light. As if he had said, that they who formerly were wont to ascribe everything either to fortune or to idols shall acknowledge the true God, so as to ascribe power and the government and glory of all things, to him alone. He does not speak of perfect knowledge, though this intelligence is requisite for the attainment of it. But since the Prophet says that it shall be manifest even to heathens, that everything is directed and governed by the will of God, they who bear the Christian name ought to be ashamed, when they strip him of his power, and bestow it on various governors, whom they have formed according to their fancy, as we see done in Popery; for God is not acknowledged when a bare and empty name is given to him, but when we ascribe to him full authority.

Making peace, and creating evil. By the words “light” and “darkness” he describes metaphorically not only peace and war; but adverse and prosperous events of any kind; and he extends the word peace, according to the custom of Hebrew writers, to all success and prosperity. This is made abundantly clear by the contrast; for he contrasts “peace” not only with war, but with adverse events of every sort. Fanatics torture this word evil, as if God were the author of evil, that is, of sin; but it is very obvious how ridiculously they abuse this passage of the Prophet. This is sufficiently explained by the contrast, the parts of which must agree with each other; for he contrasts “peace” with “evil,” that is, with afflictions, wars, and other adverse occurrences. If he contrasted “righteousness” with “evil,” there would be some plausibility in their reasonings, but this is a manifest contrast of things that are opposite to each other. Consequently, we ought not to reject the ordinary distinction, that God is the author of the “evil” of punishment, but not of the “evil” of guilt.

But the Sophists are wrong in their exposition; for, while they acknowledge that famine, barrenness, war, pestilence, and other scourges, come from God, they deny that God is the author of calamities, when they befall us through the agency of men. This is false and altogether contrary to the present doctrine; for the Lord raises up wicked men to chastise us by their hand, as is evident from various passages of Scripture. (1 Kings 11:14, 23.) The Lord does not indeed inspire them with malice, but he uses it for the purpose of chastising us, and exercises the office of a judge, in the same manner as he made use of the malice of Pharaoh and others, in order to punish his people. (Exodus 1:11 and 2:23.) We ought therefore to hold this doctrine, that God alone is the author of all events; that is, that adverse and prosperous events are sent by him, even though he makes use of the agency of men, that none may attribute it to fortune, or to any other cause.
(John Calvin's Commentary on ISAIAH 45:7)

 2011/4/15 23:53Profile

Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2265

 Re: A Scripture Pointer

JiG said,

"...what "Piper would say" is of little concern to me."

JiG also said,

"I believe with all of my heart in free-will."

What JiG would say is of little concern to me!

Matthew 19:23-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

1 Cor. 2:14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them , because spiritually they are discerned;

Rom. 8:5-8 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

John 3:6 That having been generated out of the flesh is flesh, and that having been generated out of the Spirit is spirit.

John 12:37-40 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

John 8:43-45 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

John 6:43-45 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Mark 4:9-12 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.

Proverbs 20:12 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.

John 3:7 Do not wonder because I said to you, You must be generated from above.

Worship God

 2011/4/16 0:48Profile


1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 2011/4/16 2:24

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