SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Can a woman teach???

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 Next Page )
PosterThread









 Re:

Hi Lysa, I was reading your post and I cut that portion out. But when I went back to read your post again, you had said that you had edited a portion out of that original post, citing that it was not encouraging.

However, if you didn't say it, I must have gotten it from another post, and therefore, it's my bad and I apologize. It was from this thread though. I will scan it to see where this might have come from.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. It's not my intention to be contentious.

 2010/4/27 21:23
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2265


 Re: Can a woman teach???


Question: Can a woman teach???

Answer: She not only can but she MUST!

Hear the WORD of the LORD:

Tit. 2:3-5 The aged women likewise, that they be in behavior as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

As all can read above,women not only can but MUST teach.

Older women teach the younger women so that the next generation of younger women may be taught these same things by those who were once the younger women of the text. And so on...and so on...and so on.

The question to be asked is who are they to teach,what are they to teach,why,when,how,etc.

Who? Younger women(and children)
What? 'Teachers of good things',i.e. sobriety, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands.
Why? That the word of God be not blasphemed.
When? At all times
How? By example

Furthermore,

1 Cor. 14:33-37 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. Let your women be keeping silent in the assemblies, for it has not been permitted to them to be speaking, but to be subjecting themselves, just as also the Law says. But if they desire to learn anything, let them be questioning their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for women to be speaking in an assembly. Or did the word of God go out from you? Or did it come to you alone?
If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge what I write to you, that they are commandments of the Lord. But if any man is ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak in languages. Let all things be done decently, and in order.

Let us carefully examine the meaning of these words.

RE: “keep silence” (verse 34 - KJV) -

The Greek word here for 'keep silence' is SIGATOOSAN, the present, imperative form of SIGAOO.

Three Greek lexicons say?
1) Analytical: 'To be silent, keep silence';
2) Thayer: 'To keep silence, hold one's peace';
3) Arndt & Gingrich: 'Be silent, keep still ... in the senses:

a. say nothing, keep silent ... b. stop speaking, become silent ... c. hold one's tongue, keep something (a) secret.'

A.&G. classify 1 Corinthians 14:34 under meaning:
a. 'say nothing, keep silent'.

Here are all passages in the NT where SIGAOO is found:
Luke 9:36 - "And they kept silence and told no one in those days anything of what they had seen."

Luke 18:39 - "And those who were in front rebuked him, telling him to be silent."

Luke 20:26 - "But marveling at his answer they were silent."

Acts 12:17 - "But motioning to them with his hand to be silent..."

Acts 15:12 - "And all the assembly kept silence."

Acts 15:13 - "And after they finished speaking..."

Romans 16:25 - "Kept secret for long ages".

1 Corinthians 14:28 - "But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church" [referring to speaking in foreign languages].

1 Corinthians 14:30 - "If a revelation is made to another sitting by, let the first be silent."

1 Corinthians 14:33,34 - "As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silence in the churches."

The Greek word for 'speak' ("For they are not permitted to speak," "For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church") is LALEIN, infinitive of LALEOO.

This is the common word for 'speaking'. It does not have the special meaning of 'speaking noisily'.

In the text we have laleo directly defined for us: "Let your women keep silent", "for it is not permitted to them to speak".

"Keep silent" – "speak": these are the two opposites; and the one defines the other.

"Not Permitted" - Greek=Epitrepo - (emphatically, in the highest form) not allowed, not turned over or transferred, not given liberty, license, or leave, not suffered.

"Shame" - Greek=alscitron - an indecorum, from a Greek word meaning deformed.

If a woman speaks in the ecclesia, it is a deformity to the beautiful order set out by God.

Paul emphasizes "the commandments of the Lord" concerning the ecclesia that "all things be done decently and in order."

The Greek word for "decently" (euschemon) means "well-formed, noble in rank, decorous, comely, honorable" and the Greek word for "order" (taxis) means "regular arrangement, fixed succession of rank or character, official dignity."

For God is not the author of confusion (disorder).

"It is important to observe, now, that the pivot on which the injunction of these verses turns is not the prohibition of speaking so much as the command of silence. That is the main injunction. The prohibition of speech is introduced only to explain the meaning more fully. What Paul says is in brief: "Let the women keep silent in the churches." That surely is direct and specific enough for all needs. He then adds explanatorily: "For it is not permitted to them to speak." "It is not permitted" is an appeal to a general law, valid apart from Paul's personal command, and looks back to the opening phrase – “as in all the churches of the saints." He is only requiring the Corinthian women to conform to the general law of the churches. And that is the meaning of the almost bitter words that he adds in verse 36, in which – reproaching them for the innovation of permitting women to speak in the churches – he reminds them that they are not the authors of the Gospel, nor are they its sole possessors: let them keep to the law that binds the whole body of churches and not be seeking some newfangled way of their own.

The intermediate verses only make it plain that precisely what the apostle is doing is forbidding women to speak at all in the church. His injunction of silence he pushes so far that he forbids them even to ask questions; and adds with special reference to that, but through that to the general matter, the crisp declaration that "it is indecent" – for that is the meaning of the word – “for a woman to speak in church."

It would be impossible for the apostle to speak more directly or more emphatically than he has done here. He requires women to be silent at the church meetings; for that is what "in the churches" means, there were no church buildings then. And he has not left us in doubt as to the nature of these church meetings. He had just described them in verses 26. They were of the general character of our prayer meetings. Note the words "let him be silent in the church" in verse 30, and compare them with "let them be silent in the churches" in verse 34. The prohibition of women speaking covers thus all public church meetings – it is the publicity, not the formality of it, which is the point. And he tells us repeatedly that this is the universal law of the church. He does more than that. He tells us that it is the commandment of the Lord, and emphasizes the word "Lord" (verse 37)." (B.W.)

1 Tim. 2:11-14 Let a woman be learning in quietness with all submission. But I do not permit a woman to be teaching, nor to be exerting dominance over a man, but to be in quietness. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, having been deceived, has come to be in transgression.

"Suffer not- KJV" - Greek=Epitrepo (emphatically, in the highest form) not allowed, not turned over or transferred, not given liberty, license, or leave, not suffered. This is the same word translated "not permitted" in 1 Corinthians 14:34.

"To Teach" - Greek=Didaske - to teach - this is the common word for teach.

A woman may be wiser, more capable, and better versed in the Scriptures than some men. But this is not the point.

These verses direct the women's sphere of influence to its rightful place - the home and family - where great good may be accomplished in bringing up children, showing hospitality, and working quietly to comfort and relieve the sick and sorrowful, and many other good works. Women have just as much responsibility and obligation as men to "always abound in the work of the Lord," and to give their whole lives in total, loving service.

"Usurp Authority" - Greek=Authenteo - to grasp, to seize wrongfully, to act of oneself.

This is exactly what happened to Eve in the Garden. She acted of herself which resulted in sin and grief. Eve should have looked to Adam (for whom she was made) for spiritual judgment, rather than acting on her own.

"The passage in 1 Timothy 2:11. is just as strong, although it is more particularly directed to the specific case of public teaching in the church. The apostle had already in this context (verse 8, "the men," in contrast with “women” of verse 9) pointedly confined public praying to men, and now continues: "Let a woman learn in silence in all subjection; but I do not permit the woman to teach, neither to rule over the man, but to be in silence." Neither the teaching nor the ruling function is permitted to woman. The apostle says here, "I do not permit," instead of as in 1 Corinthians 14:33., "it is not permitted," because he is here giving his personal instructions to Timothy, his subordinate, while there he was announcing to the Corinthians the general law of the church. What he instructs Timothy, however, is the general law of the church. And so he goes on and grounds his prohibition in a universal reason which affects the entire race equally.

What must be noted in conclusion is, that the prohibition of speaking in the church to women is precise, absolute, and all-inclusive. They are to keep silent in the churches –and that means in all the public meetings for worship; they are not even to ask questions. The grounds on which the prohibition is put are universal and turn on the difference in sex, and particularly on the relative places given to the sexes in creation and in the fundamental history of the race (the fall).

Perhaps it ought to be added in elucidation of the last point just made that the difference in conclusions between Paul and the feminist movement of today is rooted in a fundamental difference in their points of view relative to the constitution of the human race. To Paul, the human race is made up of families, and every several organism – the church included – is composed of families, united together by this or that bond. The relation of the sexes in the family follow it therefore into the church. To the feminist movement the human race is made up of individuals; a woman is just another individual by the side of the man, and it can see no reason for any differences in dealing with the two. And, indeed, if we can ignore the great fundamental natural difference of sex and destroy the great fundamental social unit of the family in the interest of individualism, there does not seem any reason why we should not wipe out the differences established by Paul between the sexes in the church – except, of course, the authority of Paul. It all, in the end, comes back to the authority of the apostles, as founders of the church. We may like what Paul says, or we may not like it. We may be willing to do what he commands, or we may not be willing to do it. But there is no room for doubt of what he says. And he certainly would say to us what he said to the Corinthians: "What? Was it from you that the word of God went forth? Or came it to you alone?" Is this Christianity ours – to do with as we like? Or is it God's alone, receiving its laws from him through the apostles?" (B.W.)

There is congruity in all the ways of God when the relations established by His law are observed. Man is the head, but only for nurture and protection and honour of the woman. Woman is man's equal fellow-heir of the salvation that is offered in Christ, but not to usurp the position that belongs to a man both by natural constitution and divine appointment. When both are conformed to the image of Christ, the two form a beautiful unit - "heirs together of the grace of life."

 2010/4/28 0:28Profile









 Re:

ginnyrose

Thank you for your concern but I am not speaking out of anger and bitterness. The Lord has already healed me, but yes, obviously I speak out of the experience of the many who have suffered more than the usual amount due to the misogynism which is rife not only in society but also in the church.

I am not a man hater and do not paint all men with the same brush, but even the best and most honourable will have been affected by this insiduous influence and the honest good ones will repent when they see just how much their attitudes have been tainted. This is something so evil and concerns the church so much, now more than ever as divorce rates in Christian couples has risen in the last 20 years or so to be almost as high as amongst unbelievers.

Not everything must be built up, there are evils which must be torn down. Some things that need to be pullled down are the fallacies that I have seen mentioned on this thread. I see also that some of my sisters have objected to the attitudes of some of the posts my men and rightly so.

Number one fallacy is that a woman is more vulnerable to deception than man. This is not a failing in women, it is the opposite, the failing is in men having the desire to deceive women due to his competitive and aquisitive nature. I am sure the men here will have to agree with me on this. Who has not heard of the desires of young men to know the ways in which to seduce women, in fact there are websites devoted to this pastime and shocking indeed they are for a woman to look at. How many young boys learn early on that you are much more likely to get sex if you say you love her. I am not saying that women have not sunk low in their rebellion against God, but they have not sunk in the same ways.

Having the rule over the woman should have no part in the kingdom where Christ has deemed women equal to men.

Number two fallacy is that a woman is overruled by her emotions as though this again is a failing in the nature of womankind. What rubbish. A woman is as much able to make logical deductions and be in control as a man and successful business women prove the point. Besides, a Christian man or woman is to be led by the Spirit and not by the emotions or the head and in fact it is a woman who is more likely to be submissive in order to grow spiritually than a man.Of course there are and have been very spiritual men, but in the course of things, the woman is often the most spiritual of a couple.

What does happen is that a section of the community which is being repressed is more than likely to be defensive and have problems controlling their emotions. This happens amongst other marginalised groups which have been stripped of their power, and men become `over emotional` in these circumstances too.

It is my belief that most men in the church have absorbed these influences since early boyhood and do not see it because they were so much a part of the society they grew up in and they are not entirely to blame when they are unaware of it. If they will spend some time thinking it through, and altering their attitudes, the result will be a building up of their marriages and much more happiness and God honouring for themselves too. The very reluctance to listen to a woman on this matter is an indication of how deeply entrenched the influence is.

There is however, another very real reason why a woman is the most stressed of a pair and therefore seems to be governed by her emotions and that is the extent of the ruination of the planet by toxins, which are more deletrious to her body than that of men. She carries more body fat and less muscle which means that she has more ability to store the toxins and her hormonal system is more finely balanced than a mans and likely to be disrupted. She is also more affected by the deficiencies of the `great` western diet. A good high raw diet and detoxification program will show just how wrong this fallacy is but most of all, if the men in her life will treat her with the respect that Jesus showed women in His time on earth she will learn to take care of herself and put the high value of herself that God has for her.

Brenda

 2010/4/28 2:10









 Re: Christ and His Word sets us free indeed.

misogynism, misogyny
"an extreme dislike of females, frequently based upon unhappy experience or upbringing."


Brenda; {Krautfrau]

It is plain to see that you have resentment toward what you perceive as injustices committed against your sex, females. It is also pretty easy to see that you generalize and categorize men into sweeping categories that reveal this, and that your ideas are a potpourri of radical feminism and secular humanism, and they are not based on the Bible, what we honor as the One and only true Word of God.


2 Corinthians 10:4-6 (New King James Version)
4. "For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,

5. casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ."


Let me point out a few in your post, so you will see what I mean.

1.]"I am not a man hater and do not paint all men with the same brush, but even the best and most honourable will have been affected by this insidious influence and the honest good ones will repent when they see just how much their attitudes have been tainted."Brenda...

What information is this based on? First you say that you do not paint all men with the same brush...and then that "the best and most honorable have been tainted, and if they are honest, they will repent!" This is strait out of the feminazi playbook, and struts in the face of the Word of God. Are there loving and Godly men that have Jesus's Agape integrity flowing from them? In your eyes, they all have been affected by this "insidious" influence.



2.] "Number one fallacy is that a woman is more vulnerable to deception than man. This is not a failing in women, it is the opposite, the failing is in men having the desire to deceive women due to his competitive and acquisitive nature. I am sure the men here will have to agree with me on this."

Again, gross manipulative comparison..."Men having the desire to deceive women?" Wow! Agree? Again, where did you acquire this information? It is not derived anywhere in the Bible. Perhaps you are confusing the word of god with the gospel of Gloria Stiener?


3.] "....in fact it is a woman who is more likely to be submissive in order to grow spiritually than a man. Of course there are and have been very spiritual men, but in the course of things, the woman is often the most spiritual of a couple." Brenda..


Secular humanistic feminism, not the word of God.


4.] "If they will spend some time thinking it through, and altering their attitudes, the result will be a building up of their marriages and much more happiness and God honouring for themselves too. The very reluctance to listen to a woman on this matter is an indication of how deeply entrenched the influence is."Brenda


This is the issue, Brenda. "Thinking it through, rather than "casting down arguments and EVERYTHING that exalts itself against the knowledge of god, and "BRINGING EVERY THOUGHT INTO CAPTIVITY TO THE OBEDIENCE OF CHRIST!"

5.] "good high raw diet and detoxification program will show just how wrong this fallacy is but most of all, if the men in her life will treat her with the respect that Jesus showed women in His time on earth she will learn to take care of herself and put the high value of herself that God has for her."..Brenda


Brenda, a good diet is not going to help you or anyone change their heart, or will how the other sex treats you. Only walking in the spirit, and abiding in Christ Jesus will do that. You have received counsel from other sources, that are not Godly, and it is obvious that as Ginnyrose has said here, you do need healing. As a Godly woman, I'm sure she believes that it would be easier to receive this from a woman.


I hope you have been born again. Your posts however, do not reflect the fruit and the mind of Christ, but that of a radical feminist agenda. If you humble yourself, and pray, perhaps He will come, and visit you, and heal you. I wish you the best. It is an awful jungle out there, with Satan waiting to suck you in to his web, at every corner. That is why the Word of God, His message to the world, is exalted around here, for it is the heart and desire of Jesus Himself, and if the Son sets you free, you are free indeed. No one can hurt you, or manipulate you anymore.











 2010/4/28 5:10
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re: Snuf


Snuf,

I see what you are saying - I did remove parts, I believe, could have been taken as a smart alec remarks toward Miccah that were not my intention. I removed that in like minutes of posting! (That preview button would be good at times like this!!) I honestly can't remember typing that, but nevertheless, [b]obviously I typed it if you quoted it![/b]

Please let me add (for all to read) that I truly [b] do NOT believe in the blanket quote,[/b] "instead it should be the woman 'ruling' over man," in any context. I do not believe that women should be or need to be ruling over men!

I know you weren't being contentious and I apologize for not being able to remember!
God bless you snuf and thank you for your kind reply!


_________________
Lisa

 2010/4/28 5:59Profile









 Re:

ANY WOMEN WHO ARE READING THIS THREAD AND ARE BEING ABUSED, PLEASE LEAVE, even if your pastor says you should stay and be obedient. Your husband will not stop unless he gets treatment and is able to change his attitudes towards women. There are Christian agencies which are dealing with this problem and trying to educate the Christian men who will listen but even if you cannot find one locally just go into a refuge and then start the process of insisting that he gets therapy specifically for domestic violence even if it is mental abuse, if he wants you to return.

http://www.pinn.net/~sunshine/book-sum/xtian2.html

"The primary thing that the Christian community can do to change the misogynistic system is to break the silence about it."

Brothertom

I thought that it was banned here to question someone`s salvation just because you do not like what they say or to accuse them of having motives :

"What is not tolerated:

Slander. Ill-will. Unnecessary accusations, comments.

Just as well, it is especially frowned on to be jostling with each other by way of accusation towards each others intents and motives."




But anyway I think you have aptly demonstrated my points.Please refuse to be bullied ladies. This is a very powerful stronghold.

Brenda

 2010/4/28 6:37









 Re:

OH, page 8 is so good, i wish now that i would have just shut up and read along as this thread's string was unwinding.

Reading back on what was posted by me, i failed to clearly define how i was in stance regarding the issue and some may have taken what was written the wrong way, and seeing the lack of order to the thoughts posted, some things look just totally wrong.

i was very wrong in doing this
and i am sorry for it
and if i could without ruining the thread
i would pull all that was typed from here.
Also,
if this is seen from me in the future,
somebody please step in and write something
or at least a short sharp shock of a message
will show you are kind enough to care.




One thing that will not be recanted was the comment about cults and false religions.

Lysa, if you have not found the info you were intrigued with, try searching "cult histories' or from the examples given:

1. Theosophy
2. Christian Science
3. Mormonism
4. Jehovah's Witnesses
5. Islam


Thank you all,
&
Good biidings
towards a day blessed
in our Lord
and Saviour
Jesus Christ,

CIAO!
Gonna' go to work.
II Cor. 5:19,20,21,6:1
g

 2010/4/28 6:48









 here's what i wrote on page 7

It always turns out like this, this is just TERRIBLE.
-----------------------------------------------------------


Re: Can a woman teach???
just when i thought it was safe to go back into the water..........."money", this topic, among a half a dozen turgid others has plowed, and hashed, re-hashed, shredded, pulped and composted here, again, and again and again and again, to very little profit.

But you can get Brother Don Courville's "Desert Survival" teachings here for download, or listen to the wonderful preaching of Duncan Campbell, who was blessed enough to be counted faithful, to witness the Hebridean Revival, thats the real onus of this wonderful website.

I dont mean offense brother.

 2010/4/28 9:52









 My dear Brenda

you are absolutely correct when you write to Tom:

"Brothertom

I thought that it was banned here to question someone`s salvation just because you do not like what they say or to accuse them of having motives :

"What is not tolerated:

Slander. Ill-will. Unnecessary accusations, comments.

Just as well, it is especially frowned on to be jostling with each other by way of accusation towards each others intents and motives."

--------------------------------

Sister, i am not a moderator here, but Tom should be ashamed of what he wrote to and about you, period end of sentence. (i hope your reading this Tom)

using such invectives and slander as, Tom writes :

..."that your ideas are a potpourri of radical feminism and secular humanism, and they are not based on the Bible..."

....."This is strait out of the feminazi playbook, and struts in the face of the Word of God"....

"Again, gross manipulative comparison..."Men having the desire to deceive women?" Wow! Agree? Again, where did you acquire this information? It is not derived anywhere in the Bible. Perhaps you are confusing the word of god with the gospel of Gloria Stiener?"

(Its "Steinem" Tom, and you have the ill mannered attributes of a bully to ask Brenda "where did you acquire this information?" re; man's propensity to decieve women. Probably thru the pain of walking thru this world, and you spend much bandwidth excoriating her. How would you feel if i wrote at you, "Vietnam vets that say they suffer from PTSD are just nancy boy wimps, who just ought to man-up"?
would that be Christ-like of me?)

and here's the kicker Tom, a statement SO LACKING in grace, you should be ashamed of yourself:

"I hope you have been born again. Your posts however, do not reflect the fruit and the mind of Christ, but that of a radical feminist agenda"

SHAME.

Moderators, brothers, dont you think this has gone on long enough? I just pray that Brenda has not been stumbled too deeply by the bites and slashes of those who enjoy as such.



 2010/4/28 10:18
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re: My dear Brenda

Natan. I love you brother, but you are just as guilty as Bro Tom, as I am by calling you out.

You may disagree with Tom, but what Tom said bears merit. There is an agenda behind Krauts posts. It is apparent to any who read it. I have read similar posts like this from others who post here, and from others who have been banned here. Krauts post is based on emotion instead of biblical authority.

I love you my brother, from the driftless region in Wisconsin.


_________________
Christiaan

 2010/4/28 10:48Profile





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy