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Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 693


Thank you very much brother.

You are right, the analogy is only a general comparison. Leonard Ravenhill said that you never have to advertise a fire - it will draw people all of itself. There are brothers here in our fellowship that travel 14 hours to hear brother Zac Poonen share when he is in the US. If there was a home fellowship where the fire of God was falling and we could share in the grace being poured out upon it, we would also be traveling there. You can't hide a fire or a city set on a hill.
I would encourage those who have the form "right" to ask themselves why people aren't coming from all over the country to see and hear what is happening in these "properly formed", "NEW" testament gatherings. If Christ is really being lifted up - won't He be drawing all men unto Himself?
Cain's form was just fine - but the Lord did not have regard unto him. The Lord had regard unto Abel - because he was a righteous man and his offering was received.

We read many of the books and listen to many of the sermons of men who were pastors all their life. Andrew Murray being one example. Too bad he never had the full insight into the correct "form" like some of us have received. ;-)


Alan and Dina Martin

 2010/4/12 15:54Profile

Joined: 2004/11/21
Posts: 362
Tulsa OK


ADisciple wrote:
"Home gatherings at this time perhaps lack this Fire and Presence to a large extent. But the hunger to see this is growing, and I believe there's a conviction that it's not going to be found in the established system."

I agree with you brother, there is much truth in what you saying. But i believe also that God can revive dead denominations, at least the faithful remnant and use them to a blessing and witness to others who are living in darkness in the established systems..

I have not seen yet an evangelical movement at least 100 years old, that started in the Holy Spirit and did not end up in the flesh. The church is a living organism (the body of Christ) and not an organization or institution. Men build up religious institutions and God the living temple.


 2010/4/12 16:15Profile

Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1124
Germany NRW


I have not seen yet an evangelical movement at least 100 years old, that started in the Holy Spirit and did not end up in the flesh.

Sad, but so true. I wonder if anyone here on SI is actually fellowshipping in a fellowship of apostolic stature?

Yes, and even the most exemplary saints of the last couple of centuries have not been able to sustain the spiritual vigor of their movements. Still, I believe that since Christ's ascention their always have been apostolic fellowships. The crisis in evangelical Christianity that we are now witnessing should actually shake us up and seek to build churches with true foundations.

 2010/4/12 17:45Profile


Perhaps because they allowed sects/denominations themselves to form out of what God was doing? Rather than letting God move as He will, men often times fall into the trap of try to do it on their own, their own way.

 2010/4/12 20:42

Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada


Perhaps because they allowed sects/denominations themselves to form out of what God was doing? Rather than letting God move as He will, men often times fall into the trap of try to do it on their own, their own way.

And this applies also to the trap of trying to set up "home" church. Without the leading of the Lord of the church this, too, can lead to colossal failure.

...I haven't always been aware of it, but with the advantage of the internet you discover there are even "home church" denominations out there.

Sigh. How long, Lord? What kind of creatures are we? How we need, all of us, a "meeting" with that One Jacob met with at Peniel... that One who crippled him in the place of his great strength. For the rest of his days he couldn't do ANYTHING-- not even worship-- without limping and leaning on a staff.

We are too whole. Watchman Nee said when he met a man he always looked for his limp.

Allan Halton

 2010/4/12 21:55Profile


Exactly! I found the same thing amongst the house church movement. Though many of them had great revelation and really hunger for what the Lord and His apostles set forth, they are falling into some of the same traps which they set out to avoid. These things will inevitably lead them back to the very Babylon which they tried to escape from.

 2010/4/12 22:25

 Re: Having the one man show right in your own livingroom....

I quote the venerable insights of Jed Clampett...

"You can take the preacher out of Babylon, but it's a little tougher to take Babylon out of the preacher."

 2010/4/13 0:14

Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


You can complain all you want to brethren, but there is no getting back to the original pattern of the new testament church until the original message of Pentecost is restored. That can only happen by a work of the Holy ghost.

The church age began on the day of Pentecost and the first ascension gifts given to the church were the original apostles. They laid the foundation of Jesus Christ. Everyone else is to take heed how they build upon. The first anointed preachers were the apostles sent by the Holy Ghost, for how shall they preach except they are sent by God.

Every city that Paul founded a work of God, he ordained elders to oversee and feed the flock of God. Every meeting place needed a spiritual leader or leaders to oversee and care for the people of God. The apostles were always on the move to another place and had to ordain elders to pastor or shepherd each place and for them to live among the people.

God does not recognize nor can he bless a church building or house church that has not received or been affected by one of the ascension gifts given by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Christ is the head of the true church and he can not bless those who are not under His Lordship. It does not matter if you are in a house or a 100,000 square foot building unless the anointing of God abides there it will be in vain. Except the Lord build the house, they that labor in it are working in vain.

It would really be nice if Mr. Frank Viola and others were more interested in restoring the message of Pentecost than in promoting their own agenda of house churches at the expense of hurting pastors and saints that also love the Lord who happen to be in church buildings.

Thanks for reading brethren and may those who read understand.

Blessings to all!

 2010/4/13 0:37Profile

Joined: 2010/2/19
Posts: 89


ADisciple wrote:

Question: What would happen if multitudes of God’s people began to seek out the kind of “church,” the kind of gathering, we read of in the New Testament… where they gathered in homes, and each one was given liberty under the lordship of the Spirit to participate?[/quote
Answer: The church system as we know it would collapse.

Question: Is it a likelihood that such a scenario could actually happen?

Answer: It is already beginning to happen. And it’s going to increase. It’s of God. There have been mighty moves of the Spirit of God in times past as God restored truth to His people. We are in the beginnings of another such move.

Oh that it would come quickly by the masses!!! I encourage all of us to pray for such a move.

I agree that we also need the fire of God to fall on us so that the Lord can set the captives(lost souls) free through us. But I believe the system has been a huge hindrance which has kept multitudes of God's sheep from fulfilling their calling. We need a restoration of both, the true form and power of God in our lives and gatherings. Brethren, let us not continue to defend this unbiblical system any longer. For some of us it can be an idol, if we continue to defend it after we've been exposed to the truth from the Scriptures.

 2010/4/13 0:38Profile

Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2010
Joplin, Missouri


To address some of the most recent posts on this topic:

It is interesting to me that initially the church was very organic. They held Christ as the head. There was no such thing as "headquarters" or "general offices". There was also no such thing as "The general headquarters of apostolic oversight". Denominationalism did not exist, but rather a very keen awareness of being part of the universal body and a submission one to another in the love of Christ.

I guess I say that to say this. Our paradigm is so locked into the current church system because that is all we know. It is tempting to think in terms of a "new" church starting in a city that is after the apostolic pattern and to see people as leaving the "old system" in favor of the "new revelation". And while there may very well be new fellowships that spring up in a location, I think this paradigm is faulty in that it fails to recognize the body and the kingdom purposes of God in a city.

I am seeing some very interesting things happening among church leadership where I live. Men who serve in leadership among various denominations are beginning to catch hold of the Biblical structure for the church, are beginning to catch hold of a real revelation and awareness of the body of Christ, and are beginning to have their hearts turned from denominationalism to kingdom purposes. As a result an organic network is beginning to develop in the city of eldership submitted the head and to one another in love.

I am not talking about the failed "unity" attempts of the past where leaders ignore differences and form ministerial alliances. I am talking about men whose eyes are being opened and who are beginning to come together in whatever level of revelation of this that they have. I am seeing apostolic leadership in the city whose identity has been somewhat buried coming forth and beginning to function in a very Biblical way. It is in its infancy, but I see it growing.

A shift in the leadership paradigm of the body is going to be, no doubt, tumultuous. But I think as the body begins to wake up to her function under the headship of Jesus Christ and as leaders begin to come alive to the Biblical pattern for church structure in a city, the body will once again begin to function with every joint supplying and the result will be great fruit.



 2010/4/14 13:23Profile

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