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narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1108
Germany NRW

 Re: The Problem of the Modern Pastoral Role

This article is spot on! Many pastors hold the role of the CRO, the chief religious officer. Regardless how godly and christlike these people are, if we deviate from the bible in church government, we cannot experience the fullness of what God had in mind. Rolfe Barnard said rightly, that reformators like Calvin and Owens were dead wrong to say that the church is where the gospel is preached, but rather the assembly of the saints.

We need new wineskins to hold the new wine of apostolic Christianity. Actually this wine predates the reformation by far. The pulpit-pew, clergy-laity model shaped assemblies will not be able to serve any longer.

I am coming more and more to the conclusion that the Holy Spirit cannot properly operate in such an environment and will be at best restricted to anointed preaching.

We had the Charismatic renewal in 3 waves and the house church movement in the last century. They recovered long forgotten truths that we must embrace. Just because these movements had flaws (some serious) does not mean we have to write them off and retract into a safe, boring doctrine centred mode of Christianity.

Can God send revival if we stubbornly hold on to man-made structures?
We need the 5 fold ministry as extension of Christ's ministry well as elders and deacons in the to govern the Body of Christ in all aspects.

See Eph 4:11, Eph 4:12, Eph 4:13, Eph 4:14, Eph 4:15, Eph 4:16

 2010/4/10 12:07Profile
hoohoou
Member



Joined: 2009/12/11
Posts: 212
Texas

 Re: The Problem of the Modern Pastoral Role

I don't see how the problem is in the structure of the church. I'm of the opinion that the normal Christian life is a Spirit-filled and Spirit-led life. I'm also of the opinion that the normal Christian life is holiness and anything less is sickness. That being said, I don't think it matters what "format" we use. Purposefully changing the format so that it looks Biblical is no different than keeping the format because that's just how it's done. The only thing that matters is that the pastor is Spirit-filled without an ounce of pride. The problem isn't that a single man is in charge, the problem is that the man isn't Spirit-filled.

God called me to be a pastor. I don't know what that means and it doesn't sound like anyone else does either. We can talk till we're blue in the face about how a church service is supposed to look, but the Bible really isn't that specific on the topic. I get a little tired of people pointing out problems and offering no solution. If you're going to sit down and take the time to write an article the least you can do is offer some type of answer. I can sit back at any church service anywhere, I don't care who's preaching, and absolutely pick it apart. Finding fault is easy, finding solutions is the hard part. All I know is that I was called to be a pastor and I'm going to walk with what light I have knowing that the Holy Spirit will lead me into what it really is.

Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. Our problem isn't 3 songs and a message, our problem is spiritual dryness. God saved me in a closet hanging up a shirt, in a split second. He doesn't need us to do anything any certain way. He needs us to love Him with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. We do that and He'll handle the details.


_________________
Matt Smith

 2010/4/10 13:07Profile
myfirstLove
Member



Joined: 2005/11/26
Posts: 496


 Re:

EDIT

Hi Hoohoou,

I don't think anyone here is trying to pick a part, point out the problem with no solution.

The problem is really traditional leaders are the ones who do not want to break Roman style/Old Testament ways.

The Pastor isn't the only one CALLED to help mature the sheep. Maybe God did call you to be a pastor, to help with others called to feed the sheep. Doesn't mean Pastors are called to over lord and be the main guy using his gift. Others are called too. Others feel God is calling them to be a Prophet, Apostle, evangelist, Teacher for the body, to help mature the sheep. But, many Pastors will not allow these other giftings to share the "main stage" with them. These other giftings are not side giftings as many pastors treat them. All 5 gifts(eph.4:11) are MAIN giftings to help mature the body. If the Pastor is the only one leading its not helping the body mature. The body needs all 5 main gifts to mature. So, yes it is important to do it the biblical way and not man's opinion what he thinks is o.k.

I've seen many pastors try to be the evangelist too which causes a lot of problem and confusion because many do not have the evangelist gifts. So many have treated evangelism more relational causing many sheep to think that open air is wrong. Pastors are natural in relationship so when they try to be the evangelist also they teach its more relational. Many pastors try to be all giftings and it just messes evrything up and confuses the sheep.



Most pastor will not let other gifting be use because they fear it might be abused, false, ect....Paul who is an Apostle didn't seem to worry about that with the immature Corithians. Paul encourage all gifts to be used, but orderly and that the prophets is able to judge right prophecy. Its important to let others use their gifts also, not just the pastor/teacher. all gifts are needed to help edify the body. Elders are there to oversee/help bring order not over lord. Big difference.








_________________
Lisa

 2010/4/10 14:36Profile
hoohoou
Member



Joined: 2009/12/11
Posts: 212
Texas

 Re:

myfirstLove, I think you should have written the article. Your post actually deals with the problem, not just mention the problem. Still, the problem isn't the structure, but rather the execution of the office. I'd agree that a church doesn't have to look like every other church, but that isn't the issue. The issue, as you've stated, is prideful, worldly minded pastors. Worldly doesn't necessarily mean evil, it can also simply be getting caught up in tradition. It's still wrong and sinful.

Your response though doesn't address the article or the office of pastor. It addresses something lacking in the Church, and that is Spirit-filled leaders.


_________________
Matt Smith

 2010/4/10 15:36Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2769
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
I don't see how the problem is in the structure of the church. I'm of the opinion that the normal Christian life is a Spirit-filled and Spirit-led life. I'm also of the opinion that the normal Christian life is holiness and anything less is sickness. That being said, I don't think it matters what "format" we use. Purposefully changing the format so that it looks Biblical is no different than keeping the format because that's just how it's done. The only thing that matters is that the pastor is Spirit-filled without an ounce of pride. The problem isn't that a single man is in charge, the problem is that the man isn't Spirit-filled.



Amen! As you point out the article's focus is on the form the church takes when the real issue is a spiritual one.

We all know of plenty of examples of churches past and present with the senior pastor form which the Lord has used greatly because they are broken men who are spirit-filled and led.

This is where we need to direct our prayer for the churches.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2010/4/10 15:59Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I don't see how the problem is in the structure of the church. I'm of the opinion that the normal Christian life is a Spirit-filled and Spirit-led life. I'm also of the opinion that the normal Christian life is holiness and anything less is sickness. That being said, I don't think it matters what "format" we use. Purposefully changing the format so that it looks Biblical is no different than keeping the format because that's just how it's done. The only thing that matters is that the pastor is Spirit-filled without an ounce of pride. The problem isn't that a single man is in charge, the problem is that the man isn't Spirit-filled.



Actually the problem would be structure as well as if someone is not Spirit filled. I can't find any example in the scripture where one man (even if he's Spirit filled)comes into a meeting of believers and delivers an hour message week after week while the rest of the "body" just sits there and listens. I would hardly call that a functioning body. Which is you don't see that example in scripture. What you see is each memeber able to contribute and be used of the Lord and able to excercise the gifts God has given them.

The command Christ gave was to make disciple. Not to gather a group of people who will listen to you preach week after week. In the typical church set up believer are hindered in their walk with the Lord by not being able to exercise the gifts God has given them in the believers meetings and to grow into maturity in this area.

It's really sad to see people who say they want to make disciples spend all their time preaching and teaching "supposedly" sound doctrines yet they won't put into practice a fellowship that incorporates all believers as we see practiced in the scriptures. What we see today is what is said in the aricle... "sola Pastora". It seems to be the unstated but offically accepted practice of the Reformation and should probably be listed with all the other "sola's".

 2010/4/10 16:42









 Re:

Quote:
We all know of plenty of examples of churches past and present with the senior pastor form which the Lord has used greatly because they are broken men who are spirit-filled and led.



Simply becaues God blessed a certain fellowship with an unbiblical structure is in no way an endorsement by God. God is simply merciful and loving and tends to bless men with the light they have and walk in. I've know some men who have been born again at some pretty apostate fellowship but that doesn't endorse the fellowship.

What we have today is people who will settle for what has seemed to work in the past instead of looking to the scriptures as our guide.

 2010/4/10 17:00









 hoohoou

i feel bad terming you as "hoohoou" especially when you write:

Quote:
God called me to be a pastor.



what i write i write without rancor or ill will, but i was struck by your testimony, again:

Quote:
God called me to be a pastor. I don't know what that means and it doesn't sound like anyone else does either.



which begs this question; if you dont know what "that" means, did God call you to be a "pastor", or perhaps did He call you to be "servant"?

i spoke briefly about a house meeting, the likes i have never been as privledged to be at, since or after, but what i left out were the details:

my dear brother, who is now in a muslim nation, was my dear prayer partner in very very dark new agey part of southern california...oh, the times we had! just Glorious! prayer walks at midnight thru a canyon community with active satanic covens, etc. a regular house prayer meeting on Thursday's at a dear widows house, that lasted for 4 years, where we were allowed by God the Holy Ghost to scale the heights, and storm the gates of hell, all around us. God allowed us such annointing that the enemy actually sent demonically possessed people to disrupt these meetings, this was when we were holding the prayer meetings in the only "church" in this canyon, before the "board" got the devil up in them and chased us out.

Did we do anything WRONG, that the board should do as such? No. this meeting was just usually 5 saints interceding for a most hellish community, with love and tears, and it drove the enemy wild, the manifestations, the unholy spirits sent to attack this Work of God. You should have seen it! I would say "unbelievable", but in the world of hell, these attacks are very believable, they are to be expected. one night, after the meeting closed, one of these poor souls, so bound by satan, started to manifest, and spewed out deadly threats of physical violence at me...out of nowhere. Now i might be 5'8", but friends that know me, know that is unwise to breath such threats, as i have had family members murdered....and the "old man" would react swiftly and without hesitation.

..and i was looking right into this person's eyes, impassive, and for a brief second, i thought, "son, i could kill you right now", but in another second, Jesus schooled me, and i took that awful thought captive to Christ, smiled at this poor demoniac, turned on my heels, walked out the door, and towards my truck, with this bound soul at my heels, spewing venom, but he kept his distance. The four other brothers, including the pastor were petrified with terror,rooted where they stood. I wasnt terrified, i was fighting the evil urge to split a skull, or worse when i got to my truck. (yes, i'm a yankee jew bubba)...but God told me in that moment, "thats what the evil one WANTS you to do, stay your hand, stay your anger, and I, LORD God will get the Glory". So i got in, drove away....forgive me for the aside, but that is the spiritual atmosphere we were dealing with, Pastor Jack Hayford himself told me that area we ministered, was "the darkest area he had ever been thru in his life".

the point to my testimony is that my dear brother/prayer partner had been raised by dear parents, who were higly placed within a well known missions sending parachurch, and he had known Messiah, since a very early age, he had seen the North American evangelical church for YEARS, and had been soured on the hypocrisy, and the pro forma going thru the motions aspects of the evangelical church, and since i was "new", at times we would discuss his views, which i thought bordered on rebellion, i took that one must be "in submission" to church leaders, pastors, but at the same time, i could see the "cracks" in the witness, in the ecclesiology. i remember, at the Leading of the Lord, begging my home church pastor, to reconfigure our sanctuary to where instead of the row after row of seats, into a square, just like brother Seymour did at the Azusa Street Mission. i thought that a wonderful idea, so that we could SEE each other, SEE our brothers and sisters faces......no, that was not to be. The very mission that the denomination, AoG was birthed at, Azusa, where they sat in a square on boards propped up by old nail kegs was not how my dear brother wanted HIS church configured, so i submitted and continued to stare at the back of someones neck..back to "rome". my home church has a beautiful institutional kitchen, you could feed 200 to 300 people out of it, (which we did when Teen Challenge came by with their "Lunch for the Lost"..to raise funds) and led by the Lord, i offered to spend Sunday mornings with one or two helpers to cook a simple meal, for the saints to enjoy together after Sunday meeting, an agape love feast, so the saints could enjoy one anothers fellowship, be blessed by this, cement communitas, instead of the weekly rituals of huddled "cliques", whispering at where they would take lunch at, Dennys, Applebees, or wherever, when the "sermon" ended. i implored my dear pastor, allow me to serve, BE A SERVANT, in this way, and we will blossom into community. I also made the firm committment that i would do it every single Sabbath, i'm a very good cook, as many hungry men were feed by a ministry, "the burrito ministry", the Lord blessed me with, can attestify. These were undocumented latino day laborers who gathered in my canyon, and hadnt found their work that day, and were hungry. (yeh thats right, "undocumented", or as many within "evangelical" circles call "illegal aliens", voices dripping with fleshly scorn. Heaven forbid, they should imagine that God in His Mercy brought the mission field up to US, in the U.S.)

but my pastor didnt gravitate towards that ministry, i didnt fuss, after all, its HIS church, right?

mind you, i love this dear man with all of my heart, but its his church, he's in charge, or maybe he felt that this "wasn't from God"..i dont know. i harbored no rancor. Was i disappointed? yes, because i felt, even in my lack of knowledge that i had stumbled onto something, a Divine Concept, that "church" is not a building, "church" is not some dry roman modeled clergy/laity counterfeit, where we walk in for a 45 minute lecture on Sundays and waltz out, or twice a week, for the Wednesday Bible "study", which is really just a mini version of Sunday Service, another shorter lecture. No, Church is Family. Indeed, the Church IS the Body of Christ, but if you are my brother, my sister IN Christ, we are FAMILY, and a family worships together, eats together, laughs together, crys together, trusts not only in God, but trusts one another so completely, it is safe to confess together, and testify together. Life Together. Its a Divine Concept, a Divine Model, Its Upper Room all the way. but the model of rome holds the protestant church in its ecclesiatical bondage to this very day. its all rather tragic....and that tragedy is underlined by some of the threads i read on this forum, no offense, just speaking my heart. But i rest easy in this Truth, God does know what He's doing.

i got off topic, but i wrote as i was led.....neil

 2010/4/10 19:48









 Re: hoohoou

instead of my plethora of words, i should have just posted up two Compilations that Jesus gave me, the first is [url=http://www.fireonthealtar.com/compilations/neil%20g/Shake%20the%20Nation.mp3]"Shake the Nation"[/url]and the second is

[url=http://www.fireonthealtar.com/compilations/neil%20g/01-A%20kingdom%20of%20Priests%20-%20Neil%20G%20+.mp3]"A Kingdom of Priests"[/url] to let my son know who he is IN the Lord.

 2010/4/10 21:45
osandoval
Member



Joined: 2010/2/19
Posts: 89


 Re:

For those interested in more information on this topic, here a great website that has lots of free resources(articles, audios, videos): www.ntrf.org
God bless.

 2010/4/11 10:44Profile





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