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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : IHOP is to be questioned.

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mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1862
Kansas

 Re:

Quote:
Excuse me, Brother Tom, but this sounds absurd. Does this mean exactly like it sounds? One cannot pray [in their assembly] unless he pays? What kind of prayer are you talking about?



I sensed none of this while I was there nor saw it.


_________________
Matthew Guldner

 2010/4/22 23:32Profile









 Re: How much did Lazarus pay to live? I am the resurrection and LIFE.

"Excuse me, Brother Tom, but this sounds absurd. Does this mean exactly like it sounds? One cannot pray [in their assembly] unless he pays? What kind of prayer are you talking about?" .ginnyrose

No, not at all Ginnyrose. There are several programs at Ihop that require fees , pay, for those participating. It is not unlike different Universities that charge fees. The "STUDENT" pays for his "education", in some cases $800 to $900 per month PLUS extra for certain classes. Some programs include board, others may not.


There is a full time paid clergy class there that do not pay, but are supported by the organization. There are sets performed by musical bands accompanied with 3-4 singers, and a prayer leader that are on staff. Anyone can pray from the audience [ in some venues] without being a paying student or staff member, as long as it is in the parameters of the apostolic model prayers.


I assume you are referring to my statement;
"They in effect "SELL" the ministry, and charge for the brethren to participate. This is beyond scriptural; it is wrong." I stand by that statement.

The overwhelming majority of those in IHOP must pay to continue to participate; to be full time prayer missionaries. They are taught to sponge off of the family, original churches and the public , and are taught to develop "ministry" letters to solicit steady monthly funds, as they are now on the mission field. They are now Prayer missionaries; the highest calling on Earth. They are taught that this is God providing for them, and of course, full time. You don't work. You are supported.


Because IHOP is essentially a "PRAYER and PRAISE" ministry, in effect, a devotee must "pay to pray". Many, many have left IHOP disillusioned because they couldn't raise the cash.


The holy church of the Lord Jesus never has, nor ever will charge money to receive you . The only pay required has been met by the blood of Jesus. IHOP is a machine now, requiring millions of dollars each year to operate. Mike bickle has publicly lamented about HOW "expensive" it is.


Everyone , on top of that, is "encouraged" to tithe, and give to the IHOP cause.

The undisciplined, the ghetto poor, the weak minded, the aged infirmed, the working single moms etc. are missing at IHOP meetings. They are not "trained", have the vast sections of time required, are not disciplined to do so, and are virtually non-existent. The young and the strong, the elite and willing...and this means youth...malleable; able to be molded, and idealistic are targeted.


The church is not the church if it is not the church of the weakling. The billions and billions of souls on the EARTH must be supported by a grueling 6 or 7 day work week, to survive. Many, that do even this, do not.


The ONE exquisite and perfect vehicle designed by God himself to meet the needs, spiritual and physical, is the LOCAL CHURCH, with all of the blood , sweat and tears, diapers and teenagers, bills and conflicts of marriage and life! The local church where "WHOSOEVER COME! and drink of the fountains of LIFE.....WHOSOEVER!..LEPERS, drunks, junkies, harlots and weaklings. In that community we participate in loving God and each other, and learn to reach out BECAUSE we love to a dying world.

THIS IS NOT A MONASTERY!...It is a family under God with weaklings in it like you and me. Ihop performs.


They are forerunners after all. Missionaries...Not.






 2010/4/23 5:29









 Re: Escape from IHOP...monastery.....

This is the testimony of a former IHOP intern. You may read it, and others concerning IHOP on "THE GOSPEL MASQUERADE"...[WWW/WEB] It is somewhat lengthy, but very relevant, and worth the read.


THIS IS TYPICAL FROM MY EXPERIENCE. THERE ARE HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS MORE.....


...........................
"There were many, many experiences that made me do a double take and say “what?” while I was at IHOP but that internal questioning was quickly explained away or rebuked by internship leaders. Once I began to deviate from IHOP’s teachings and study scripture on my own for answers to the internal conflicts I wrestled with, I began questioning the pseudo reality I had been conditioned to embrace.



Suddenly I saw the isolated red flag incidences as a seamless pattern of error and the veil of deception fell. I stopped rationalizing and justifying. Enough was enough and I was done and wanted out.

There are much more personal experiences than I can put into one single blog post, but here are a few I still recall pretty strongly.

1. Mandatory fasts which made me very physically ill. They would never admit to having “mandatory” fasts but when you don’t have any food available, close down the kitchen, give your cook the day off and don’t allow interns to hold jobs (so that they have money to go buy food if they aren’t participating in the fast) then that is called mandatory.

2. Being practically held hostage in the prayer room and told that it was required that I be there and I was not allowed to leave even though I did not feel well and wanted to go back to my apartment. I was told I needed to stay in the prayer room to be part of the “corporate anointing” and that I shouldn’t leave.

It was one of my “required” prayer room sets as an intern so I spent the remainder of that 2-hour set in one of the side prayer rooms in the back sobbing on the floor because I wanted to leave so badly and our internship leaders were standing by the door. You might ask “why didn’t you just force your way out and leave anyway?”

When you are part of cult where free, independent thinking is not condoned when you don’t comply with what is expected of you, very often guilt, manipulation and penalties are instated for those who resist. Interns who didn’t follow “the rules” of the internship were penalized through loss of privileges (such as loss of your day off, having to do extra work/manual labor, etc.)

3. The grip of control and micro-management increasing: greater demands and restrictions on interns (such as increased pressure to fast more to attain a higher pinnacle of spirituality) being told where we had to sit when in the prayer room, taught a model for how to pray, how to dance, sing, etc. Any form of worship outside of this model was not considered to be acceptable. It had to fit IHOP’s style and method to be admissible.

4. Mandatory journaling assignments which we had to do weekly and then we had to turn in our journals to be read by internship leaders

5. Seeing how controlled the prayer room was. Rather than having freedom to express my heart to the Lord, I was put in a box and told how I had to do everything IHOP’s way. I had reading and writing assignments whenever I was in the prayer room.

6. There was no alone time ever to really think, reason, test, question or process anything. We were run ragged from sun up to late into the night which always left me exhausted, depleted and burnt out.

7. Once when I got sick, my mother came to pick me up and internship leaders resisted letting me leave with her (even though she lived in town). My internship ‘com leader’ (short for community leader) objected and still impressed upon me the importance of going to the prayer room even though I was too sick to get off the couch. My mother said “she is my daughter and I’m taking her home and taking care of her. Period.”

8. The more leadership responsibility I was given as an intern, the more I got peeks into the “inside”. I saw the outer fringes of the internal operations of how IHOP functioned. I was on an IHOP dance team and sang as a chorus leader on a few worship teams. To dance, I had to follow a specific model that IHOP required.

To sing, I had to attend the briefing/de-briefing meetings before and after each worship set where I saw first-hand how carefully controlled that the seemingly “spontaneous” aspects of worship were carefully calculated and often planned ahead of time.

9. Another intern got deathly ill and it wasn’t until she ended up being hospitalized that internship leaders took seriously the fact she was sick. They accused her of faking an illness to get out of attending IHOP classes and time in the prayer room. This was told to me directly by that intern.

10. If I wanted to go anywhere off IHOP property (even to go see my family who lived in town) I had to notify internship leaders of my whereabouts at all times. I had no autonomy or freedom as an individual. Some leaders who were 19 (but were former interns which gave them elite status) were telling me where to be, what to do and when I was expected to be home.
I had to answer to them for everything. I was in my early 20′s and had lived on my own before so the feeling of suffocation and having no personal rights to space, privacy, independent thought, etc. was overwhelming.

There is much more but I think that’s a sufficient start to at least give you an idea of some of what was happening when I was at IHOP. It wasn’t until after I left that I began to see far more than I had been able to see when I was still involved.


The casual observer on the periphery won’t necessarily see the reality of all that is happening there because they are seeing the veil that IHOP has built to carefully cloak the truth of a lot of what really happens.

After I left, I realized how worn out and exhausted I was in every way imaginable. I spent days and weeks sleeping and physically healing from the trauma of the experiences I had just come out of and to let my body heal from the fasting and sleep deprivation. It took a long time for me to really start healing emotionally and spiritually and to begin putting pieces together.


Recovering from mental and spiritual abuse like that is a hard road and a difficult place to come out from. I did months of research after I left IHOP and the immediate dust had settled. I wanted to see the roots of the giant beanstalk that had sprouted up and choked the life out of everything in me.


I started going back as far into the history of IHOP as I could. As interns we were required to listen to 18 hours of audio CDs recapping all of the history of IHOP and the “prophesies” that led to it’s starting. I started researching on the internet about the names of the so called prophets of this movement and what they had come out of. That led me to picking apart a very carefully woven web of key players that all were connected to this massive organization.

I shared with one parent who e-mailed me about her own child at IHOP the importance of praying that the L-rd will open their eyes not only to see, but to recognize and identify the red flags of IHOP. The thing is, they are probably already seeing them, but rationalizing and excusing them away as isolated events rather than viewing them as a destructive pattern.

I pray that the Father will show those there who are truly seeking him the pattern of red flags…making them so obvious they can no longer ignore them.

My hope is that the young people there who are much like I was will begin to question what they see and compare it with what the scripture actually says…not how Mike Bickle twists and teaches it…and that they have the courage to identify it and reject it.


!!!!!! Those who oppose IHOP and speak out typically experience some kind of consequences or backlash. People are a commodity there. They are traded. When wounded ones leave, IHOP leadership doesn’t sweat over it…new and unsuspecting people who are ignorant of their dangerous devices but are hungry for emotionally-driven experiences and spiritual highs will come back in the same door the others left. It’s a revolving door of deception. !!!!!!

The deceptions of IHOP are treacherous and very real. Did G-d use that place in my life and work together for my good the devastation I experienced? Absolutely. But that is a testimony to the goodness of our G-d…not a stamp of approval on a place. Remember he spoke through a donkey and a burning bush. That doesn’t mean we should glorify donkeys and start worshiping bushes.

I’ve been asked many times how my eyes were opened to see what was happening at IHOP and how I got out, etc. I’ve thought about that many times and the simplest answer I can give is that I knew who my source was. G-d was my source of instruction, teaching, counsel, truth, etc. It was His voice I was seeking to hear and His approval I desired. IHOP wasn’t my source. So when the things I heard from the L-rd through prayer and studying His word were in conflict with the things I was being taught in IHOP it made the decision to leave an easier one.


It was traumatic and painful and I’m not going to minimize that. But it was the price of protecting truth and I knew that staying would have compromised what I knew was right and since my desire is to delight the heart of my Father, once He removed the scales, I was out.

My desire is to see people set free to live lives of healing and wholeness…walking in genuine love and pursuing truth. My prayer is that the things you read on this blog inspire you to that end.

Grace and peace to you.


"THE GOSPEL MASQERADE"...blog....Ariel


 2010/4/23 6:13









 what does Jesus say?

He answered, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit."

Matthew 15:13-14 (ESV)


and.....

"In the morning, as he was returning to the city, he became hungry. And seeing a fig tree by the wayside, he went to it and found nothing on it but only leaves. And he said to it, "May no fruit ever come from you again!" And the fig tree withered at once."

Matthew 21:18-19 (ESV)


and.....

"At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven".

Matthew 18:1-4 (ESV)




and what did Gamaliel say?

"So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or this undertaking is of man, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!" So they took his advice

Acts 5:38-39 (ESV)

he who has ears...

 2010/4/23 10:18
Solomon101
Member



Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 536
America's Flyover Country

 Re:

Brothertom,

I don't personally know this intern you posted...but I do know several other folks that have come through the internship program at IHOP and they are all flatly denying this quote as accurate.

I also understand that a disciplined lifestyle is not an easy lifestyle. It sounds as if this is probably the first personal discipline this person had encountered.

Just as an example lets take her first point...

"1. Mandatory fasts which made me very physically ill".

So they have mandatory fasts...big deal! If you will not discipline yourself to a full fast two days a week you do not have the personal discipline required to be a minister of Christ. Now, before you get all bent out of shape at me realize those were not my standards to start with. Those were the standards put down by John Wesley. He would not have allowed her to be in ministry either. In fact if we go to the earliest Christian documents we will find a similar expectation expressed in the Didache. She wouldn't have cut it there as well.

Almost all of the complaints listed are simply someone whining about being given structure and discipline. So IHOP requires fasting, prayer, journaling, etc.,good for them! So IHOP has folks that watch over that development and read the journaling to insure that the interns are actually gaining the discipline to be effective ministers... and the fault with that is WHAT?

If any of this seems to severe I would suggest that you do a reread, analysis, and evaluation of the actual contents and contexts in which 2 Timothy was written. You will find Paul tells Timothy to get his discipline and toughness in order. In crude modern, but very accurate language, Paul told Timothy to quit feeling sorry for himself, suck it up, and get his head back into the game! Especially take note of chapter 2.

I also think it is fair to say in view of Paul's treatment of Mark, after he quit and went home to mom as well, that Paul would tell this girl not only good bye but to also not come back until her thinking was straight! That was how Paul handled it.

The bottom line is this..we have a bunch of pampered, fat,spiritual babies in the United States. We are placating to the fleshly weaknesses instead of disciplining ourselves to the purposes of Godliness. In short we are producing soft civilians in the church as opposed to AN ARMY of the Lord!

Hat's off to IHOP...they at least seem to understand what Paul and John Wesley did... seems I recall Ravenhill making the very same point at one time also....even if the majority of our sissified panzy American Church does not.

Sorry about the intensity of this post...I write these things in love.... but enough is enough!

Endure hardness with us like a good soldier of the Lord Jesus Christ 2 Tim 2.

Blessings

 2010/4/23 11:58Profile









 Re: IHOP testimony and practices...Jim says sound the alarm...


Solomon101: Here is another testimony you may peruse at "Slaughtering the sheep; wordpress". There are hundreds out there. Do you really believe that they are all softies, and just can't "cut the mustard" to real discipleship? I'm afraid you do. Here is a more mature married brother, and his experience......

Posted by James Jones on December 26, 2009

"Dear sad parent, I was 45 years old when I took a trimester at IHOP in '03 by the grace of God He led me and my wife away from that movement but it took about a year for me to realize it was a cult, and two years for me to see the whole prophetic, Apostolic, signs and wonders thing for what it is, DECEPTION.

I know exactly what you are saying about contemplative prayer being like T.M
.
But it doesn’t stop there, there is so much new age and Catholic mysticism mixed into the pot that it is one big hodge-podge of ecclesiastical witches brew.

In a prophetic class that was taught by Kirk Bennett one of our assignments was to take a scripture and repeat it over and over for two hours straight, praying it, repeating it until we got a revelation, this is nothing but a mantra, repetitious prayer, something we are not supposed to be part of.

At the time I thought something was wrong with me because I never got anything (but tired) unless it was by my imagination, but later I was pleased to know that I was being protected, that’s why it wasn’t working. I was a sincere man trying to answer what I thought was the call of God on my life and at the time I new very little about the prophetic movement, but I did see a power that I thought had to be God.

And how could twenty four hour seven day a week prayer and worship not be of God? Boy did I get an education. Your right about this being part of the great apostasy but it isn’t limited to just IHOP but you are probably well aware of it.

My wife and I actually moved down right behind IHOP in '04 from Wisconsin, thinking we were going to be part of that movement, but the Lord said no, but because of our close proximity, and boarding a IHOP student with us for a year, we learned some of the idiosyncrasies and things that they would not want others knowing.

We even took in a Chinese women in for two weeks who was a wreck after being part of IHOP for two years. IHOP staff was very uncomfortable her staying with us, they didn’t want their image tarnished in the neighborhood; they did all they could to try and wisk her away before we found out to much.

To much to tell, but the fruit is very bad. As for your son,..[ who was counselled to cur off all relationship with his mother by someone at IHOP...] I know that you are praying, my wife and I will as well.

I’m thinking of the scripture in 2Tim.2:24-26 zeroing in on part of verse 25-26 “if God perhaps will grant your son repentance so that he may come to his senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.”


As I said the Lord led us out and we will be praying He will lead your son out, and that he will be better for the experience, as some one who can have a strong voice in warning others from such madness, perhaps because of my age young people don’t want to listen to me, but they may someone your son’s age.


Keeping sounding the alarm perhaps some will listen."
Jim

 2010/4/23 12:59









 Re: another testimony from a former leader in Ihop


“I also have a feeling of concern that somethings not right.”
May I suggest you ask the Lord Jesus to show you what that “something” is, He will. May I also suggest you pray for your children and Church to be given a “love of truth” and that nothing and NO MAN be put on a pedestal in their lives. Pray that the Lord Jesus and His truth be first in their lives. Pray also that they just read the Sciptures instead of always studying Mike Bickle’s teachings.

We need the whole counsel of the Word to grow into maturity.


I believe your concerns and that feeling of something not being right is from the Holy Spirit, THE Spirit of Truth trying to lead you into the truth about what is going on.


Many errors have been exposed in regards to IHOP and Mike Bickle over the years and many people have come out from among them. Many others continue to follow in error and delusion. It is quite a confusing “swirl” when one is involved.


Yes, many young people are hungry for more of the presence of the Lord and desire to be wholehearted and the message Mike teaches really convinces one that doing the “one thing” as he defines it, praying 24/7 and fasting is the way to know the Lord in a deeper experiential way. These two biblical disciplines are emphasized to a extreme degree.


He is very charismatic and uses “loaded language” that grips the emotions, his vision for himself and his house of prayer is very grandiose. Like the Cults he also teaches his followers what kind questions they will most likely encounter by those on the outside and prepares them with “loaded phrases” that stunt real deep thinking, questioning and discernment.

[Solomom101...this is for you!] A common response a IHOP-er would give to someone questioning what they are involved in is, “Burning hearts make dull hearts uncomfortable.” The point being that THEY have the burning heart and YOU do not because you are questioning their teaching and practices which seem to contradict the Scriptures.


He believes God is changing the understanding of Christianity through his ministry in one generation. I find that quite astonishing actually, that Mike is the one who is chosen for such an exalted task. Where do you find this in Scripture? He is the one who tells of his experience in Cairo Egypt where he alleges he heard the “audible voice of God” who told him this.


I find it curious and wonder, “Did he test that spirit? Did he test that message? He tells many fantastic stories such as this that seemingly always somehow exalt HIM, HIS calling and HIS ministry. Dreams, prophesies and “encounters”, angelic and otherwise are sought after and emphasized. It is an unreal, hyper-spiritual counter culture.


Everything revolves around the house of prayer and Mike, and no one wants to “miss anything”. He has an amazing way to create a swirl of excitement. There are many spirits at work there.


I believe he draws people after himself and his grandiose vision all the while telling everyone, “It is what the Holy Spirit is doing at the end of the age.” He teaches the young adults they are going to be end-time “apostles” who will release the judgments of the Lord through prayer.

There is great elitism and selfish ambition at work. People circle around Mike and vie for his attention. Most of the foundational “blueprint” prophesies for Mike and IHOP came from Bob Jones and Paul Cain.


His ministry requires the time, finances and life of his followers. Many have signed a pledge called the “Sacred Trust”. There is a “devouring” aspect to his ministry.


If you measure the teachings of Mike Bickle against the plumbline of Scripture in context you will know where the error is.


I am writing from experience, I was part of it for some time. Mike Bickle does have some good teachings but there is a lot of mixture as well. The emphasis “appears” to be on a individual relationship with Jesus BUT the structure demands 8-10 hours a day in the prayer house plus administration hours all the while “raising” ones own support and when that doesn’t work finding gainful employment.

Many live at poverty level, go into debt because they cannot raise support, use welfare and stand in lines to get food. But they keep getting taught about “supernatural provision” and there are always lots of “glory stories” but not too many of the “gory stories ” are told from the platform.


Mike teaches his followers to live a “fasted lifestyle.”

I observed in myself and those around me, that we were not using critical thinking skills and examining everything we were being taught like we are told to by the Lord Jesus and writers of the NT.


As far as all the giving to the “poor” they say they are doing I would suggest you examine the financial statements (if there are any) before you just believe what Mike and his staff are telling you. In the past Mike has not wanted to be accountable to a true board, he has stated he wanted to run the finances of his ministry like Benny Hinn does.

He tends to surround himself with “yes” people, those he can easily control. Most people who tried to bring accountability didn’t last too long as that is not what Mike wanted.

Will people hear? If they are willing and have a love of truth, they will.

God Bless!
PS There are many articles here, also there very good articles at signofjonah blog site. Tricia Tillin of Banner

You may read these comments and testimonies at "End time Prophetic words....",search mike bickle and Ihop..
Tom

 2010/4/23 14:01









 Re: The Elijah company: The forerunners! Apostles of prayer! just join up!




Solomon101 wrote...[ about sister's testimony who left IHOP determining it to be cult like..]

"I also think it is fair to say in view of Paul's treatment of Mark, after he quit and went home to mom as well, that Paul would tell THIS GIRL not only good bye but to also not come back until her thinking was straight! That was how Paul handled it.

The bottom line is this..we have a bunch of pampered, fat,spiritual babies in the United States. We are placating to the fleshly weaknesses instead of disciplining ourselves to the purposes of Godliness. In short we are producing soft civilians in the church as opposed to AN ARMY of the Lord!

Hat's off to IHOP...they at least seem to understand what Paul and John Wesley did... seems I recall Ravenhill making the very same point at one time also....even if the majority of our sissified panzy American Church does not."
........................Solomon101.......


Do you think there could be a hint of spiritual pride and elitism in this statement?


I have posted several testimonies, and my own experience, but I did not want to let this one go yet. This movement is affecting tens of thousands of young people world wide, and becoming a part of it is touted as being the deepest thing in God that you could be.


My friend Solomon101 is a good example what these young people are taught about themselves when they commit as a member. It is looking like a cult more and more each day, and it needs to be exposed and stopped, for it is also wounding more and more each day.


I say this to my friend Mike Bickle. You were called to build the church of Jesus; one at a time, in the nations of the EARTH....not an elitist monastic order that portrays works as devotion and sacrifice. This work is influenced by Babylonian practices that you touted as super spiritual in your devotion to the Catholic Mystics, and has deceived you. Repent before it is too late. Enough people have been damaged . It is pride, and not the kingdom of God, and it is Not pleasing to God, but to men;s religious nature.

It is a religious spirit.

 2010/4/26 12:22
Solomon101
Member



Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 536
America's Flyover Country

 Re:

Brothertom,

You correctly quoted me as saying,

"The bottom line is this..we have a bunch of pampered, fat,spiritual babies in the United States. We are placating to the fleshly weaknesses instead of disciplining ourselves to the purposes of Godliness. In short we are producing soft civilians in the church as opposed to AN ARMY of the Lord!

Hat's off to IHOP...they at least seem to understand what Paul and John Wesley did... seems I recall Ravenhill making the very same point at one time also....even if the majority of our sissified panzy American Church does not."


Still stand by it whole heartedly, However, you directly make an accusation against me with your statement saying

"My friend Solomon101 is a good example what these young people are taught about themselves when they commit as a member. It is looking like a cult more and more each day, and it needs to be exposed and stopped".

I suggest you please examine the section of sermons on this site. You will find I am nearly quoting many sermons on this site exactly. Please understand if my statement is "looking more cultlike..it is pride not the kingdom of God, a religious spirit," etc. ad naseum, then you also label those statements of others as such. As previously stated Wesley did much the same thing, but give a listen to Leonard Ravenhill, Keith Green, Paul Washer, David Wilkerson, Winkey Pratney, etc. You will find almost the same staements from them that I made.

In scripture we see people (the Pharisees and chief priests) bringing accusations against Jesus and later His followers in much the same manner as has been brought against IHOP. All that is happening in your posts is you find a disgruntled person to cast negatively at IHOP. Big deal! I can find folks who will post criticisms of ANY ministry! And I mean ANY. That is no "proof". For crying out loud......Jesus, Paul, Peter, Wesley, Spurgeon, Jonathon Edwards, George Whitfield, Charles Finney, etc. ALL had similar accusations hurled at them. If in doubt please do some in depth research of church history to see it is clearly so.

That last paragraph you posted is a totally false accusation.... one I would be very fearful to face the Bema Seat of Christ before repenting of if I had made it. To be a false accuser of the bretheren is a very poor place to be in when one stands before the Lord.

No real use arguing about it here... I know many folks at IHOP... students and staff..as well as being friends with some who served there on staff in years gone by... I know for a certain and sure fact that those accusations you made are false.

I do however agree with your last sentence. It is a religious spirit. However, it is not IHOP that has it.

Scripture says, "When you see that have not words of wisdom depart from them." In view of that I am done with this thread and discussion Brothertom.

I certainly can't stop you from being a false accuser of those who are fully devoted followers of Christ, washed in His blood, professing Him as Lord and Saviour,seeking to know Him better and fulfil His plan in their life, setting themselves aside in worship, praise and adoration of Jesus their King, performing wonderful ministries of mercy and diligently sharing the eternal Gospel of Jesus Christ.... but if you want to continue to be their false accuser before God then please clearly understand the scriptural repurcussions of that choice upon you!


I hope you choose well in this area.

 2010/4/26 15:57Profile









 Re: AGAIN, i sak "what does Jesus say?"

i will re-post the Words of the Lord in regards to this thread full of divisness and rancor. i don't NEED to be paid attention to, but what does Jesus have to say about certain men calling each other over there disagreements over this ministry and that ministry,
one calls Christians "fat pampered spiritual babies", the other writes to the other:
"
"My friend Solomon101 is a good example what these young people are taught about themselves when they commit as a member. It is looking like a cult more and more each day, and it needs to be exposed and stopped".

this is just filthy rag palaber, and brings reproach upon the Body of Christ.

slander: "fat pampered babies"

the other slander: "it needs to be exposed and stopped"....and pray tell, how do you stop it?

pitchforks, stakes, tar oil. a noose, an M-16?

what does Jesus say about ministries that dont meet the mark:

what does Jesus say?
He answered, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit."

Matthew 15:13-14 (ESV)


and.....

"In the morning, as he was returning to the city, he became hungry. And seeing a fig tree by the wayside, he went to it and found nothing on it but only leaves. And he said to it, "May no fruit ever come from you again!" And the fig tree withered at once."

Matthew 21:18-19 (ESV)


and.....

"At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven".

Matthew 18:1-4 (ESV)




and what did Gamaliel say?

"So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or this undertaking is of man, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!" So they took his advice

Acts 5:38-39 (ESV)

he who has ears...

like insane people you keep going around and around, cemented in your "beliefs"

like pride soaked fleshlings, you refuse to hear the other over your own voice, which can only help to the be the "right voice".

This thread is a downright stench, look at the number of anonymous visitors, and this is your witness?

This is the kind of witness that is dragging this precious forum down to the depths with overwrought self-righteousness.


 2010/4/26 18:06





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