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If you can find in the bible Krispy where we should be more concerned with stopping health care reform than winning people for Christ then please post it and I will apologize.

That was not my point... and I made that clear.

I was addressing your blanket accusations on every Christian who showed up in DC. Your generalizations were in error, unless you know the hearts of everyone who was there.

Because of the passage of this bill we Christians will be paying for the murder of unborn children against our will. Executive Orders generally are not worth the paper they are written on... especially when it's nothing more than lip service from Obama.

Christians took a stand for life... and I think that is what Jesus would do.


 2010/3/23 8:37

Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7504


We may not have to move to Virginia; as of this morning there are 38 states moving to make amendments in their state constitutions based on the Federal 10th amendment!

And yesterday I heard something similar. It appears like there is something radical underfoot and it could get 'interesting'. My husband's nephew was in our store and was filling me in on these details....

As I read the penalties to be imposed upon noncomplying citizens, I get the sense there are gov officials who want to rid the country of a class of folks. Lets face it: not all will be able to afford it, so how are you going to successfully prosecute these people? Jail them? Prisons are already crowded. That leaves one other unpleasant option - kill'em. Hitler did it and what is there to prevent it from happening here? Only the hand of God and we have no promise of this happening. He didn't prevent it during WW2 in Germany.

The sun is shining and it looks like it will be a blessed day regardless how the puppets in Washington are jumping.


Sandra Miller

 2010/3/23 9:27Profile

Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343


"A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government. ... My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. "

-Thomas Jefferson

"Human government is more or less perfect as it approaches nearer or diverges farther from the imitation of this perfect plan of divine and moral government."

"If men through fear, fraud or mistake, should in terms renounce and give up any essential natural right, the eternal law of reason and the great end of society, would absolutely vacate such renunciation; the right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of Man to alienate this gift, and voluntarily become a slave."

-John Adams


 2010/3/23 11:30Profile

Joined: 2009/1/4
Posts: 353


I have heard that there are a number of states who are now in the process of implementing laws to block this health care bill from their states? Is that legal, can they do that? What will the federal government do about it?

Chris you mentioned that someone told you if you do not like the health care bill to leave the country, was that your congress woman?

I will be praying for the Lords will to be done. God is faithful, I trust Him in all things.

in Him

 2010/3/23 11:35Profile

Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343


Is this legal?

That completely depends on your interpretation and view of the Constitution.

If you are a conservative, and you believe that the Constitution is to be interpreted literally, as one would interpret the Bible literally, then yes, this is completely legal. The Federal Gov't has no power or authority to mandate health care insurance on any individual.

If you are a liberal, and you interpret the Constitution as a slimey piece of jello, then no, the Federal Gov't can do anything it wants to do, and the states must submit to the Fed.


 2010/3/23 11:49Profile


I COMMENTED ON THE THREAD AT THE END OF THIS REVELATION..........{ I meant it the other way around but am out of time.....]

Justice and Glory!..10 virgins. 5 died.
> America is entering unprecedented times of Sorrow, and
> unprecedented times of Glory. Will you survive?
> ........................................................................
> If this were my very last article that I ever
> wrote, or last encouragement, or warning, before my death,
> this would be it. It is the most valuable thing that I have
> to give, to serve the body of Christ. We must be prepared
> for the holocaust that is riding these winds of judgment,
> and realize that this is from the Lord Jesus. We are waking
> up, even those of us who love slumber.
> Over many years, the Lord has given me several
> interlocking revelations about His church in America. One
> important piece of that is THE END OF THE AMERICAN
> DREAM! The Lord spoke that phrase, and revealed to me it
> would center around a "greed mortgage craze", and there
> would be massive homelessness from the middle class, and
> riot like anger within the black and minority community.
> here:
> But this is only a small portion of what we can
> expect to come, both in Glory, and in Judgment. The end of
> the American dream is about the holiest company ever
> assembled in this country, emerging within the greatest
> financial judgment ever to be in this country. There are two
> types of judgment. One has Mercy mixed in with it; a type of
> discipline that gives way to the possibility of repentance,
> of turning back to God's way, away from our own, and being
> restored, healed by our tender Father.
> Most of judgment is in this vein, because the Father is
> most merciful and gracious, and desires all to come to Him.
> He takes no pleasure in the death and destruction of the
> wicked. This financial judgment has mercy mixed in it, and
> God is leaving space for the Church, and America to repent,
> and believe.
> The other type of judgment is a judgment when
> all mercies are depleted. This is called Wrath. Consider
> Jeremiah's many, many, ignored pleadings with Jerusalem, and
> then one of them was his last; for the Babylonian warriors
> broke through the wall and proceeded to rape, murder and
> plunder; and not even sparing the toddlers and infants. It
> was a holocaust; a horror beyond thought; but it was real.
> One could argue that America was once the cradle
> of the FREE church of our Lord, maybe foremost in all of the
> the days of her youth. If we have not become the
> "Great Whore who sits upon many waters", I assure you that
> we are a part of her. We despise Jesus, we mock Him, and
> MOST of our churches have a mere form of Christianity, but
> reject the power to become agents of His love and mercy. We
> are enamored with our own happiness, and promote our wills
> and lives. God has turned her over to the wolves.
> "The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests
> bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so:
> and what will ye do in the end thereof?"
> The Lord is defining Apostasy here. This is the
> "what" and "how" of why People fall away. God's people have
> fell in love with their own lives. God has become an
> inconvenience, a burden, a slave master; and they will
> resist bending to Him or ANYONE, over their dead bodies. THE
> We are seeing a flood of sorcerers and
> magicians and Usurpers that would be unimaginable 10 years
> ago; and our "Main Line" churches too! A form of godliness

> wrapped in dead form; Void of the Spirit, yet glorying in
> doctrine and political correctness.This is why America as a
> country is being judged. "If the salt has lost it's
> saltiness, WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR?"
> wrath; utter rejection derived from utter rebellion.
> In 2001, I was caught up in the Spirit with the Lord.
> It was a though I was traveling around the Earth with
> Jahweh; sailing high above, and watching the continents
> below. There were no rivers, cities, or wilderness; only a
> massive wheat field. The sun was shining, the wheat
> shimmered in a gentle wind. The wheat was mature and golden;
> the sky was a Robin's egg blue. It completely covered every
> bit of surface on these continents; the inhabited ones.
> Out of the substance of the Earth and the Sun and
> the Wheat the Lord Spoke; "IT'S HARVEST TIME!"... the vision
> ended.
> For years I had misconceptions of the harvest
> as being a time of worldwide sweeping revival. I now know
> that it is not. The Harvest is the "End of the AGE!" The
> Harvest is the time of exposure, of light revealing and
> separating the darkness. The Harvest is a time of
> separation; a time when the evil look alike wheat is exposed
> for what it really is. POISON!
> Matthew 13; verses:
> 24Jesus presented another parable to them,
> saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who
> sowed good seed in his field.
> 25"But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and
> sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
> 26"But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the
> tares became evident also.
> 27"The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir,
> did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it
> have tares?'
> 28"And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The
> slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather
> them up?'
> 29"But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the
> tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
> 30'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in
> the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First
> gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them
> up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"
> Remember this; "and the enemy who sowed them
> is the devil, and the HARVEST IS THE END OF THE AGE!"; and
> the reapers are angels."..vs:39
> now experiencing the very beginning of the birth Pains of
> it. I will now share a very troubling set of visions that I
> was given, about the wrath part .
> I was shown the INVASION of AMERICA by foreign
> armies. In the first vision, I was in the Spirit, and was
> peering through the reeds, on a bluff above the ocean, on
> American Soil. I heard a terrifying thunder of a massive and
> numerous army marching. I heard the cadence of boots
> marching in step, so many that the earth shook. I trembled,
> yet I watched on. Out of the ocean, close to my hiding spot
> in the reeds, a foreign army arose right out of the sea.
> These were foot soldiers, dressed in the camouflage stripes
> of another nation. They all had back packs, and assault
> weapons, but were staged to fight light, and mobile. They
> were terrifying in their sheer numbers and power.
> A voice spoke to me over my right shoulder; a
> voice that I know. It was the voice of God, the Lord Jesus.
> He just said; "20 million."
> I understood that this was the number of the
> invading army. I understood that they were an occupying and
> an invading army; and there goal was to blitzkrieg to the
> heart of the cities in overwhelming numbers, and once there,
> they would be impregnable. Once inside of a city, with
> perhaps 500,000 men, we would be helpless. This would of
> course be a sneak attack; and would happen suddenly.
> The corresponding vision I had several years
> before, was about an AIR WAR, on American soil, for AIR
> superiority before the main body is set to advance. This was
> near the exact area that I saw the armies rise. I saw a
> bombing war, with multitudes of attack planes. I saw the
> enemy with waves and waves ; and when we think we have a
> chance, another and another wave of fighters and bombers
> dive in.
> I watched this war for a very, very long time, and
> as I saw it continue, I watched a very small object spinning
> out of the war, towards me. It was a tree, and as it
> approached me, it became larger and larger until I saw that
> it was a tree sent from God. It was covered perfectly in
> most beautiful leaves; It was, "The tree for healing for all
> nations" spoken of in the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
> It is maturity in the Church. It is Jesus Himself
> alive in this end times Church, right here in America. The
> day is coming, when we will no longer be impotent, and
> lackadaisical. Healing, and power over all of the work of
> the enemy will be deeds that are commonplace, and it will be
> the day of instant fruit the Amos prophesied of, when the
> treader of grapes would be overcome by he who sows the seed.
> It will be the fullness of Jesus in His bride; It will be
> the Overcoming church; the Remnant Bride that has endured to
> the end, that loved Jesus more than her own way, her own
> life.
> The very sad thing about this, is imminent
> judgment that must come. I believe that prior to this
> invasion we will be nuked, along with every military base in
> the world, and every nuclear ship, and missile base. I
> believe that this will primarily occur on the East coast,
> and some cities in the west. The Midwest will be left for
> food production. I was not shown this by the Lord; this is
> my own judgment, but I believe that this horror will leave
> 100 MILLION Americans dead before the end....TWO FOR ONE,
> Wrath on the unrepentant.
> I saw this invasion take place on the TEXAS
> COASTLINE and New Orleans area, on the same path as KATRINA.
> It will be a time of horror, hand in hand with the Glory of
> the ages. This is me; I was not shown this by the Lord, but
> I believe when this happens, we will be very close to the
> MIDDLE of this Great Tribulation. There will be 42 months,
> at least, to go. Jesus will rescue Israel, and the believers
> in all of the world then. We will then begin our eternity,
> as will the many damned, who hate God and his Christ.
> I want to give you some signs upon the way,
> that the Lord has shown me. I saw the company of real
> messengers, Apostles, that the Lord has ordained for
> America. They are broken and filled with holiness, and
> possessed with more authority that man could imagine. They
> hate the usurpers, nicolaitans, and false apostles like the
> NAR and such, and will lay their lives down for the least of
> the brethren, whoever that those may be. They are filled
> with humility and love.
> One of the signs that they have manifested is when
> we see, "AN AMERICAN BAND OF MARTYRS"...These will be saints
> that will go in the face of death and martyrdom to carry the
> gospel to foreign shores. They will be butchered, and
> slaughtered, but behind them many more will follow, and this
> will be a pleasing aroma before the Lord. When you see and
> read of this, then you will know that real Godly apostles
> are here too, to shepherd the American flock through this
> tribulation and unto Jesus alone.
> The second sign will be harder to perceive, but
> just as real. We will begin to see saints that we would
> consider dead, destroyed and fallen away, restored. Many of
> them will have been wounded in the current WAR in the
> church, between an emerging humanist-new age gospel and
> "apostle" mindset that denies the CROSS, both as Jesus as
> the only way to God, and the cross that the individual MUST
> bear DAILY, as he dies to himself, to lives to God, and
> learns how to love. People that you would not imagine, will
> return to the Love of Jesus, and become a blaze for God. It
> will be amazing, similar to Ezekiel's "DRY BONES"
> vision...right here, in America.
> There are TEN Virgins: All wake up, but all
> don't survive. What is the keystone for the survivors?, and
> what did the victims of blindness lack? Oil for the lamps.
> It is the Holy Spirit flowing in relationship with He who
> stands among the candlesticks. Everyone assumed they
> possessed it, but really only some did. This is the most
> important possession in your entire life, even for Eternity.
> Do you fellowship with Jesus? Do you know Him? Do you
> worship Him, in Spirit and in truth, or do you just have an
> idea of that, or a form of that?
> Only one thing we will possess in this soon
> coming trouble is FAITH, a quiet assurance that we know Him
> who we have rested our soul upon.
> Hebrews 11
> 3 who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of
> righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions,
> 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the
> sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war,
> put foreign armies to flight.
> 35 Women received back their dead by resurrection; and
> others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that
> they might obtain a better resurrection;
> 36 and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes,
> also chains and imprisonment.
> 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were
> tempted, they were)put to death with the sword; they went
> about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute,
> afflicted, ill-treated
> 38 (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in
> deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.
> 39 And all these, having gained approval through their
> faith, did not receive what was promised,
> 40 because God had provided something better for us, so
> that apart from us they would not be made perfect.
> This was not written apart from us, even today,
> and it is more than a historical encouragement, it is a
> code, a living testament about how true saints will react to
> extreme hardship and persecution. Do not be deceived into
> thinking that a farm in Idaho or a large storehouse will
> succor you in this time. It will not, and you will be very
> disappointed. As then, as now, Only a living faith in Jesus,
> sustained by daily bread, will enable you to endure unto the
> end; and the end for some of us will surely be martyrdom.
> I see the church as a resurrected remnant; a
> little flock. I see her in twos and threes, where glory
> falls as well in many, many home churches and personal
> groups where real relationship will and is able to be
> cultured.
> We are now yet in a time of grace where we all can
> repent, and return to our first loves; where we can
> determine a life "All for Jesus, No matter the COST!...We
> have space, but I promise you as I warn you; THE DOOR IS
> CLOSING! Also, there is yet space where we can pray for
> America. Will she repent? Probably not, but Abraham wasn't
> slowed up for SODOM, before the Lord with that probability,
> was he? It is possible that the number of that occupying
> force and army may be diminished, but not without
> repentance. Remember Nineveh.
> We will need each other much more in the future,
> and Jesus most of all. We will seek him continually in these
> times of trouble, and it is written; "The Lord has NEVER
> forsaken ANY who seek after Him." This is the difference in
> having oil for your lamps, and being left without it, in the
> most dire of nights.
> Jesus is Lord and Creator,
> and Satan, and every one of his devil angels that followed
> him, are nothing, and less than nothing before His glorious
> power. They are together less than a drop falling into a
> cavernous 55 gallon drum, and united less than a match head
> of chaff, in a forest fire. Jesus is but using the devil,
> and anti-Christ, to prove his purposes, and His faithful,
> and His Faithfulness. when Jesus is done using him, he will
> be cast headlong into the lake of fire, where he will burn
> for eternity, along with his brother angels....[ AND ALL OF
> THE HUMAN LOST..] We are also a part of this trial, that
> will encompass the entire earth. We overcome by faith.
> John said, in Revelation, "Your brother, in tribulation and
> patience." That's how it has to be.
> brother Tom Watkins


It is more than Government intrusion; it is tyranny. Socialism is fueled by class envy, and it must have an underclass to stoke up to revolt. Here, in America, we allow citizens to revolt by vote; and to empower themselves to take what they cannot earn. It's called social entitlement.

The mantras are always the same. The right to own land and a home, the right to health care, education and the prosperity afforded my richer neighbor. The real issue is WHO grants these things; God, or the leaders of government.

Our Constitution speaks of God granting the right to life; while Socialism is always Godless, mandating that the state mandates the rights of man.

It is interesting that wherever Socialism travels, it attempts to establish the utter hatred of the Lord Jesus, and to abolish all faith in Him. Read the testimony here of John and Betty Stam, and their struggle with it two generations ago.

Russia banned Christianity, China, N. Korea, Cuba, and Viet Nam. Why? Because the spirit of socialism agrees up and down the board with the spirit of ANTI-CHRIST.

I travelled to China in 2007, to meet with the underground Church. There have been executions for worshipping Jesus there, forced abortions, imprisonment; and they are hunted like animals.....Therefore they meet in secret...and are very wary of any outsiders.

The right wing; the Conservatives, at least allow the thought of God as Lord and King into society, but often seem to replace their values with Capitalism. This is their motive for a free America...


The American Dream has become an abomination to the Lord....therefore I believe that Barak Hussein Obama is sent to America as a tool of judgment.

I submit a vision from the Lord I received in 2003.

 2010/3/23 12:18

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4535


Hi wind_blows...

Chris you mentioned that someone told you if you do not like the health care bill to leave the country, was that your congress woman?

No, it was someone else in a public forum. Ironically, I was told this THREE TIMES over the past few days. It seems that you can't voice opposition to this type of legislation without being shown the door to the country. I politely asked each of these what they would have done if someone would have asked them the same thing before a slight majority in Congress approved this. They never responded. I also asked them how they could claim to approve of "democracy" when they so adamantly opposed the will of the majority. While I agreed about the need for some type of reform, I explained that the vast majority (about 75%) opposed this current legislation.
I have heard that there are a number of states who are now in the process of implementing laws to block this health care bill from their states? Is that legal, can they do that? What will the federal government do about it?

There are many states opposing it; however, the chances for success are quite slim. I think that the greatest legal challenge will involve the choice to use "reconciliation" and shady "back room deals" to force this legislation through Congress. "Reconciliation" was obviously not intended to be used to "reconcile" two very different bills that completely overhaul 1/6 of the national economy. There is also a very strong Constitutional question in regard to the "back room" deals with Nebraska, Louisiana, California, New York and other states and districts in order to secure "fence" votes. Article 14 requires "equal protection under the law" in regard to federal laws. Those numerous "kick backs" provide favorable means to those particular states and districts.

Unfortunately, this bill is now signed as a "law of the land." It is possible that the legislation will survive as "law" while the "kick backs" are deemed unconstitutional. I suppose that the point of contention for most Americans is in regard to the REQUIREMENT to purchase insurance simply for being alive. There is NO opt out mentioned in the legislation. I suppose that there is a very strong argument that this is unconstitutional simply because the Federal Government does not have the right to force a "purchase" on Americans (via the interstate commerce clause). This requirement is not a tax. The question is whether or not the Federal Government can force private citizens to purchase something. The Federal Government doesn't even have the power to require auto insurance -- because that power is delegated to the states, and Americans can still freely opt out of purchasing auto insurance.

It will be interesting to see what happens with all of this. When all is said and done, I am shocked by how quickly this unpopular legislation has been pushed through Congress. We were promised openness, transparency and the consideration of every alternative. Instead, we were given something that was done behind closed doors, alternative ideas were locked out, and pieced together with questionable back room deals used to garnish a few extra votes, and then forced upon the public anyway.

My Congresswoman did tell me several times that "[i]all western European nations have some 'progressive' form of universal health care[/i]." Now, this is not even true. However, after being told this several times in regard to this legislation and the proposed High Speed Rail here in California, I finally asked the Congresswoman, "What makes you think that Americans WANT to be like those 'progressive' Western European countries?" Now, this was a civil conversation. She told me that she enjoyed speaking with me...even if we disagreed. I also was able to share my faith and tell her that I would be praying for her.

*EDIT - I just wanted to make it clear that I support legislation that would help cover more people who aren't covered with health insurance. It is a noble thing to desire. However, I just strongly oppose THIS legislation in that it forces individuals to make such a purchase under penalty of law.


 2010/3/23 12:34Profile

Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7504


I just wanted to make it clear that I support legislation that would help cover more people who aren't covered with health insurance.

I will plead guilty to being real dense here, but why is this mandate necessary? Anyone can get medical care if they want it, at least here in Missippi you can.

But I am alarmed at the requirement that says you have to buy it. There are many Christians who do not have health insurance but are part of a medical aid plan. What will happen to this?

I cannot help but think there must be something sinister behind this mandate...and if it is, I know God will be with us, caring for us one moment at a time and we better start practicing it now.


Sandra Miller

 2010/3/23 20:24Profile

Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA


Hi everyone,

Taking up a few things that Brothertom mentioned:

"Socialism is fueled by class envy, and it must have an underclass to stoke up to revolt."


"It is interesting that wherever Socialism travels, it attempts to establish the utter hatred of the Lord Jesus, and to abolish all faith in Him."

A short while back I read something on the internet that mentioned a man named Saul Alinsky and claimed a connection to him and the current President. Because of a particularly outragous qoute that was attributed to this man I decided to see if I could substantiate it. I didn't find much regarding a relationship with him to the President(I did not look much either) but I did verify the qoute. I also found an article about him and saved the link to it; it seems relevant. [url=]Full Article[/url]

The author of the article says that Mr. Alinsky described his purpose in a book he wrote titled 'Rules for Radicals' citing a passage from the book:

“What follows is for those who want to change the world from what it is to what they believe it should be. ‘The Prince’ was written by Machiavelli for the Haves on how to hold power. ‘Rules for Radicals’ is written for the Have-Nots on how to take it away.”

The author continues with more qoutations from the book, some of which seem relevant also. Such as,

"The organizer dedicated to changing the life of a particular community must first rub raw the resentments of the people of the community; fan the latent hostilities of many of the people to the point of overt expression. He must search out controversy and issues, rather than avoid them, for unless there is controversy people are not concerned enough to act."

[i]personal note here, but it is peculiar to me how many flyers I see plastered around in different neighborhoods, decrying different social issues, that could be taken exactly as this[/i]

and also...

"...Remember that even if you cannot win over the lower middle-class, at least parts of them must be persuaded to where there is at least communication, then to a series of partial agreements and a willingness to abstain from hard opposition as changes takes place."

Maybe most significant is a qoute, though not mentioned in the New York Times article, that I have found also attributed to the book by Mr. Alinsky, from its dedication:

“Lest we forget at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgment to the very first radical: from all our legends, mythology, and history(and who is to know where mythology leaves off and history begins-or which is which), the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom — Lucifer.”

[b]" the latent hostilities of many of the people to the point of overt expression. He must search out controversy and issues"[/b]

LETS NOT FALL into the trap of power-mad megalomaniacs and the devilish pyschopatholgy that plays games with human souls.

As the author of the article suggests: [b][i]Know Thy Enemy[/b][/i]

Mr. Alinsky, he says, 'could not have been more clear about which side he was on.'

Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2010/3/23 21:34Profile

Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC


The amazing thing about Mr. Alinsky is that he does not realize that all of this is coming about so that the kingdom of God might topple the American kingdom, exactly as it has every kingdom that has existed since Babel. I believe what we are seeing is the continued economic judgments of God upon our nation, and that the financial bankruptcy we will experience is ultimately a reflection of the spiritual bankruptcy we have plunged into.

It is now official, with this new policy, our government will be funding the slaughter of the innocents. That alone should tell you the demonic nature of this legislation.

Jimmy H

 2010/3/23 21:42Profile

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