| Poster | Thread | ginnyrose
Member
Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi
| | Re: | | Once a person can through logic determine that the preborn may be lost - oh, heaven forbid! - those born prematurely through abortion, what is a person to do?
ginnyrose
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Sandra Miller
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|  2010/2/28 9:33 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
The problem is Ben, that along with those verses are verses like these.
The problem with what? The problem with the truth?
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Hos 9:11-17
11 As for Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb , and from the conception.
12 Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, that there shall not be a man left: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them!
God has the right to give and take physical life. Abraham knew this and trusted that God could resurrect his son who he would sacrifice. This has nothing to do with the next life and eternal punishment.
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13 Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.
14 Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.
15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.
16 Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb .
17 My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him: and they shall be wanderers among the nations.
These words were not spoke to general heathen but even to the half-tribe of Ephraim.
It doesn't matter because it has nothing to do with the personal destinies of the infants in the next life. It is a present, physical punishment upon the adults. God is able to compensate the innocent children who are victims of their parents disobedience.
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Compare to these:
Isa 49:5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant,
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
God has a plan for everyone's life. Some have greater callings than others. This has nothing to do with eternity because people can always reject the calling God has for them.
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Hos 12:3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb , and by his strength he had power with God:
This says nothing about eternal life.
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Isa 48:8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb .
This is not talking about an individual and the literal womb of his mother. The passage is addressed to the whole "house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah"
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Isa 13:17-18 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb ; their eye shall not spare children.
This also has nothing to do with eternity.
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This is because we see that even in the womb God works to save or condemn men.
There are no men in wombs.
God does not work to condemn the innocent. That is a blasphemous thought which you should have taken up the shield of faith against instead of letting it lodge into your body and start a theological infection. In actual combat I could pin you to the ground and pull out the fiery dart that has struck you but I can only metaphorically do that in this situation because the choice is yours whether you want to believe lies about God or search for the truth. |
| | 2010/2/28 10:26 | | mguldner
Member
Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1862
Kansas
| | Re: | | God also provides many promises to the fatherless, and surely an aborted baby is abandoned by both father and mother before even born.
Deuteronomy 10:18 "He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing."
John 1:27 "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."
My thought is as a seed of Adam they are commended but in the case of the Aborted there is mercy because of the ignorance they possess (without even the ability to show this ignorance) same with a little baby they are ignorant of right and wrong so there is grace.
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Matthew Guldner
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| | 2010/2/28 10:45 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Ben
Still waiting for the 7 righteous in Sodom, or any righteous in Noah's generation. No matter how you twist it, they just aren't there.
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| | 2010/2/28 11:11 | |
| | Re: | | There is a reason for not a single "child," mentioned in the New Testement coming to believe in Christ. And "household salvation,' would be the most flimsiest of replys to what I just said. Not only would one be making an argument from silence, but the theology that you create in your own mind would condemn babies, aborted babies, and children to hell. Now, where would that theology come from?
Children are innocent, in order to enter heaven one must be like a little child. There is an age of accountability and that age would be different for each child, God knows. Read the Bible from cover to cover, soak it into your spirit and you will know that God is a defender of the innocent, its in His very nature. To argue from the theology of original sin is to argue from your own thoughts and intelligence. Even the vilest of Catholic theologians could not stomoch the teaching that babies or children went to hell so they came up with Limbo. And of course there is no limbo.............Frank
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| | 2010/2/28 11:32 | |
| | Re: | | Quote:
Ben
Still waiting for the 7 righteous in Sodom, or any righteous in Noah's generation. No matter how you twist it, they just aren't there.
Well of course you are still waiting. I'm still trying to pull the fiery dart out of your shoulder.
Who said babies are righteous? Being innocent and righteous are two different things. Righteousness is a subset of innocence. Not all who are innocent are righteous. You have to be morally accountable to be righteous.
Again, when God destroys a city, a nation, even the whole world with a flood. There may be innocent children who are a victim of the judgment. But this has nothing to do their place in eternity.
You have appealed to physical death in order to prove eternal death. It doesn't make sense. |
| | 2010/2/28 11:39 | |
| | Re: | | Ben
Quote:
Not all who are innocent are righteous. You have to be morally accountable to be righteous.
Therein lies your problem. You have to be washed in the blood to be righteous. You have to be righteous to enter heaven. Those considered innocent do not always enter heaven.
It is your definition of innocent that is at stake here, since all die, who exactly can be innocent?
Because all die for the cause of their own sin, the innocence referred to in the Bible, is being innocent of something the Bible deems worthy of early/immediate death. For instance, in our day we look at a drunk driver killing a pedestrian as killing an innocent. Why? Because they were killed for a reason other than something that Gods word says is deserving of death. Yet the pedestrian still dies, why? Because they are still guilty before God for their sin. What is their sin? They were born opposed to God, which required a second birth of their spirit for eternity, yet even if that has already happened the body still had to die because it was unfit in its present condition to live for eternity. Whether saved or unsaved, was the pedestrian guilty before God? Yes. Was he guilty before man? No. Therefore he is considered innocent.
Now, whether innocent or not, if he is saved, he is considered righteous by the blood of the Lamb, but if he is lost, he is considered unrighteous.
Now suppose the drunk driver dies in the crash as well. Was he considered an innocent? No. Why? It is simply a fitting woe come upon him for his actions Isa (5:11, 22). Was he guilty before God? Yes. Was he guilty before man? Yes. Therefore he is NOT considered innocent.
Is an unborn baby guilty before God? Yes. Why? Because he was conceived in sin. He was conceived opposed to God requiring a work of God on his heart in the application of the blood of Christ to bring him to Himself. Can God do that work in the womb? Yes. The question at hand really is, does He always do that work in the womb? The answer has to be no, for if it was yes, neither the judgment of Sodom, nor the judgment of the flood could have taken place.
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| | 2010/2/28 11:56 | | IWantAnguish
Member
Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343
| | Re: | | I am still a virgin... have not caused any girl to commit abortion.
I have had a little sister aborted... she would be 12 right now.
I have not confronted my mother on the topic yet... she does not know that I know... I want to exercise prudence in anything that would further separate my family from one another... thus I am wrestling with this issue by myself.
I am not pro-choice. I deem it evil to dismantle an infant in the womb, piece by piece... it is quite disgusting to watch. I would not wish this type of torture on the most wicked of men.
The reason this question has come up is due to attempting the nature of the heart of man.
The more I know of the Word of God, the more wicked I see myself. The more I learn of God's holiness, the more I see my own self-centered paradigm / worldview. Everything I do is tainted with selfishness.
Further, why do I do what I do? Why do I make the choices that I make? How much of what you choose to do, or choose to think is of your own volition? And how much of what you think, and how you think about things a product of the sum of conditions around you, acting upon you?
All of my high-school friends are like xerox copies out of the copy machine of the world. They all watch the same tv shows, listen to the same type of music, dress in the same way, think the same way... How many of them chose to turn into a copy of one another?
Did they actively think, "I want to be like this," and then work towards that point?
As I spend time with an unsaved friend, I see more and more his helplessness to come to know God. He has no desire to know God, has no need for God, hates God and despises His word. His mother often tells him to read his Bible and pray, but he rails against her and tells her to leave him alone.
What is the difference between my friend and an unborn child? Is my friend guilty because of his dead / unregenerate heart? According to the Bible, as much as it may go against our humanistic culture, and man-centered idol-God, YES, he is guilty regardless of him requiring GRACE, God's unmerited favor to enter into heaven / fellowship through the blood of Christ.
Salvation would not be gracious if we deserved it. God can choose to give grace to some, and to others, He may deny it.
We are all born dead to God... only through the regenerating Spirit can we come to know Him.
Jesus did not come to make bad people good, but dead people live.....
P.S. Job 10:18 Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me!
Why would Job say this?
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Sba
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| | 2010/2/28 12:26 | Profile | wind_blows
Member
Joined: 2009/1/4
Posts: 353
| | Re: | |
sorry I posted incorrectly.
in Him
Ellie
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| | 2010/2/28 12:38 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
Jesus did not come to make bad people good, but dead people live.....
Great comment!
[url=http://www.theinvisiblechurch.ca/fakery/Alive_or_Dead.html]Alive or dead[/url] |
| | 2010/2/28 13:06 | |
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