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TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Ben,

To me, it sounds like you're saying "anyone who comes to Jesus the Father enables to come to Jesus".

"Coming" is synonymous with "believing" in this passage - "And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst." (John 6:35)

Effectively, Jesus says no can believe in Him unless it has been granted to him by the Father. Coming is the same thing as believing, and believing is the same thing as coming, as is seen in John 6:35.


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Taylor Otwell

 2010/3/3 10:19Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
TaylorOtwell asked:
In light of the previous verses...

And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” (John 6:65)

It sounds like you are saying the veil is removed after we come to Jesus (and I agree), but how do we come to Jesus?

They come by the conviction of the truth.

Jesus will draw all men unto him if He be lifted up; and He was, therefore He is drawing [b]ALL[/b] men to Himself. However, some deny & refuse.
The reason that men are condemned is because they are able to come to Him but refuse.
No one would be condemned if they are unable, because the inability would exempt them from the obligation.

Do not say that they would be worthy of condemned even if they are unable, because they are sinners; do not say this because (you say) they are sinners by nessecity of their nature which would actually exempt them from the responcibility of the obligation not to be sinners.

In reality, all mankind have the ability not to be sinners; all mankind have the ability not to sin; all mankind have the ability to come to Christ and repent.
Because, with out the ability, they are not culpable.

If man has no play in their being sinners and no prt in their comming to Christ, they they are not worthy of condemnation.

Quote:
To me, it sounds like you're (Ben) saying "anyone who comes to Jesus the Father enables to come to Jesus".

Actually, all mankind are able. Therefore, the Father does not have to "enable" anyone.

What do you think disables anyone?

 2010/3/3 10:45Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Logic,

I still don't understand your view of:

He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

What is the Father enabling the person to do? Jesus gives the answer: "to come to Jesus".

What does it mean that the Father has to "enable" someone to come to Christ, as this verse says?

------------------

Regarding John 12:

[i]Now there were some Greeks among those who went up to worship at the Feast. They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, with a request. "Sir," they said, "we would like to see Jesus." Philip went to tell Andrew; Andrew and Philip in turn told Jesus.[/i]

Presumably, they told him instead of bringing them because Jesus had previously said to only go among the lost sheep of Israel. However, after telling him, Jesus talks about drawing "all" men to myself, which, in context, he is saying that when he is lifted up, he will draw both Jews and Gentiles to himself. In other words, salvation will not be limited to one ethnic group.


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Taylor Otwell

 2010/3/3 12:59Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
TaylorOtwell asked:
I still don't understand your view of:

He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

What is the Father enabling the person to do? Jesus gives the answer: "to come to Jesus".

What does it mean that the Father has to "enable" someone to come to Christ, as this verse says?

"No one may come to Me unless it has been given to him from My Father"

This corresponds with John 6:44 "No man cmay come to me, except the Father who has sent me draw him."
But we already know that the Father is drawing all mankind because Jesus has been lifted up (John 12:32).

Therefore, it is up the the man to respond to the drawing of the Father. If the man refuses to be drawn, he can not come to Jesus by the refusal to do so.

 2010/3/3 14:12Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

""But we already know that the Father is drawing all mankind because Jesus has been lifted up (John 12:32).""

We know this does not mean all mankind of the world. If so then all would come to Christ. This is not so. Only those that the Father has given to the Son. If those that are not given to the Son would not come because of God's drawing, then God's Word would be returning void. If this meant all mankind and it was up to them, and they refuse, then God's Word would also be returning void.

You say, why did God make those that don't receive and are not saved, "why did You make me this way and why do You blame the lost.

All this is mankinds bent. Only God will draw those He predisinated to be in Christ, before the foundation of the world. These are those that God has given the Son and these are the body of Christ He died for, His body, the Church.

Isaiah 8:11-22 For the LORD spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying, Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid. Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken. Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples. And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him. Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. And they shall pass through it, hardly bestead and hungry: and it shall come to pass, that when they shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and curse their king and their God, and look upward. And they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness.

Why you ask?

Luke 5:8-10 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord. For he was astonished, and all that were with him, at the draught of the fishes which they had taken: And so was also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men.


Ro 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Ro 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Ro 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

It is not up to man, but God who has made all things and makes His presense known to all He will. Then give them to the Son that they might be made by Christ in them, "The Wisdom of God, The Righteousness of God, Being Sanctified by God and Redeemed of God, all in Christ Jesus Whom died on the Cross for all that are His, His Body, the Church.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

God's Glory and ours In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2010/3/4 14:27Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou said:
Quote:
But we already know that the Father is drawing all mankind because Jesus has been lifted up (John 12:32).

We know this does not mean all mankind of the world.

Wrong, God is drawing all men to him. Quit denying Scripture.


Quote:
If so then all would come to Christ.

Wrong, God doesn't always get what He wants.
God wanted Adam not to sin, but Adam sinned anyway.

Just becausd God is drawing all men, does not mean that all men will respond. The reason that men are condemned is because God attempted to draw them, but they refused.

Quote:
If this meant all mankind and it was up to them, and they refuse, then God's Word would also be returning void.

You have the wrong understanding of returning void.
All it means is that His Word will not do nothing, it will always have an effect.
The fact that they refuse makes them all the more culpable.

Quote:
You say, why did God make those that don't receive and are not saved, "why did You make me this way and why do You blame the lost.

Huh?

Quote:
Only God will draw those He predisinated to be in Christ, before the foundation of the world.

I knew it would come to this "predisination" thing. All your doing here is making God to be a sadistic tyrant again. No one can truely love the god you describe; creating people for the sole purpose of tormenting in eternity.

 2010/3/4 15:02Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Logic wrote:

"""" Re:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Christinyou said:Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But we already know that the Father is drawing all mankind because Jesus has been lifted up (John 12:32).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We know this does not mean all mankind of the world.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wrong, God is drawing all men to him. Quit denying Scripture.""""


I am not denying scripture, but only studing in the Greek and many other scholars that are much more learned by the Holy Spirit than I am.



Logic also wrote:

""""Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You say, why did God make those that don't receive and are not saved, "why did You make me this way and why do You blame the lost.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Huh?

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Only God will draw those He predisinated to be in Christ, before the foundation of the world.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I knew it would come to this "predisination" thing. All your doing here is making God to be a sadistic tyrant again. No one can truely love the god you describe; creating people for the sole purpose of tormenting in eternity.""""



Again; You say, why did God make those that don't receive and are not saved, "why did You make me this way and why do You blame the lost.

Ro 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Ro 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Finally; Romans 9:20-24 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

This has nothing to do with choosing or predestinating those that are saved or not saved, but to those that are in Christ for the saved.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2010/3/4 17:12Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Logic,

If God is drawing all men to himself (I already gave an exposition of John 12 in a previous post that you haven't interacted with), John 6:44 doesn't seem to make sense...

[i]No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw [b]him[/b]: and I will raise [b]him[/b] up at the last day.[/i]

The "hims" in verse 44 are the same person. However, you are forced to see them as two completely different people, since you do not see the one who is drawn as necessarily raised up, whereas Jesus says the one who is drawn will be raised up. The pronouns are referring to the same person.

John 12 is not talking about every man on earth, it's talking about Jews and Gentiles, as can be seen from the context of the Greeks coming to meet Jesus, the disciples not taking them to him because he told them only to go to the house of Israel, and then Jesus clarifying that when he is lifted up he will draw all (Jew and Gentile) men to himself. The point of the teaching seems to be to teach the disciples that the Kingdom of God will not be bound by ethnic barriers.


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2010/3/4 18:03Profile
nearthecross
Member



Joined: 2009/5/13
Posts: 74


 Re:

Quote:
If man has no play in their being sinners and no prt in their comming to Christ, they they are not worthy of condemnation.



Hmm...this statement sounds a bit like Romans 9:19 to me:

"You will say to me, then, 'Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?'"


Logic, your profile name suits you well. Your logical deductions and attempts to reason away the unexplainable are futile, however. As a man of God once said, God's sovereignty and man's responsibility are like two parallel lines; we'll never see them meet this side of eternity. It's absolutely clear from the Bible that God is sovereign in salvation. God chooses us, saves us and sustains us by His power alone. We have no part in it. But at the same time, the Scriptures show us that man is responsible for his actions and crimes against a Holy God. If a man goes to hell, it's 100% his fault. We can't explain it, and neither does the Lord expect us to.

Romans 9:18-24 were written for this very reason. Paul knew there were bound to be people, like yourself, who would object to God's sovereign work of grace, making such accusations against Him like "That's not fair!" or "If that's the case, God is a monster!".

Yet God's reply to you from the Scriptures is a simple one. I would heed to it if I were you:

"Who are you, o man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the Molder, 'Why did you make me like this,' will it?" (Rom.9:20)


Lastly, I will address your other statement:

Quote:
In reality, all mankind have the ability not to be sinners; all mankind have the ability not to sin; all mankind have the ability to come to Christ and repent. Because, with out the ability, they are not culpable.



The above quote exposes you as an outright Pelagian and heretic. I plead with you to repent of this heresy and believe the Word of God, and the true Jesus Christ of the Word.

 2010/3/4 18:21Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
nearthecross said:
Quote:
If man has no play in their being sinners and no part in their coming to Christ, they are not worthy of condemnation.

Hmm...this statement sounds a bit like Romans 9:19 to me:

Not even close.
Rom 9:19 You will say then unto me, Why does he yet find fault? For who has resisted his intention?

God's intention was to use Pharaoh to show the world His glory & power no matter what Pharaoh does; either with Pharaoh's cooperation or without it. However, Pharaoh hardened his own heart as he resisted God and if God's intention was to use Pharaoh no matter what he did, who can resist God's intention?

Quote:
Logic, your profile name suits you well. Your logical deductions and attempts to reason away the unexplainable are futile

What do you mean the "unexplainable"?

Quote:
As a man of God once said, God's sovereignty and man's responsibility are like two parallel lines; we'll never see them meet this side of eternity.

Wrong, this only makes sense to those who have a warped definition of God's sovereignty.

Quote:
It's absolutely clear from the Bible that God is sovereign in salvation.

Yes, He is, but It's absolutely clear from the Bible that God sovereignty does not mean that He is playing a grand game of solitaire and we are only cards being played.

Salvation is not a thing, it is a relationship with God through Christ. Relationships are a couple, both having roles to take part in.

Quote:
God chooses us

We must choose Him also. God does not spiritually rape the soul of mankind to save them as RC Sproul puts it.

The fact that men refuse God is why they are condemned. It is not because God refuses man that they are condemned.

Quote:
saves us and sustains us by His power alone.

The "sustaining" is not from a "power" but by a reciprocal, mutual love.

Quote:
We have no part in it.

Do you actually think that God is playing a grand game of game solitaire and we are only cards being played?

Do you not know that salvation is a relationship where we have a part in it?

Quote:
We have no part in it. But at the same time, the Scriptures show us that man is responsible for his actions and crimes against a Holy God.

Your theology is contradictory.
Man has no part, but is responsible, this is nonsense.

If your theology does not make any sense, throw it out!

Quote:
If a man goes to hell, it's 100% his fault.

How so.
Y'all claim that we are born sinners & we sin [b]BECAUSE[/b] we are sinners, therefore we sin because we are born.
Since when is anyone responsible for the way they are born?

Furthermore, IF it is 100% all God & 0% none of man, & God only elects a lucky chosen few; how is it that they who are not elect at 100&% at fault?
Your theology is nonsense.

No wonder there are atheists who mock God, because this is what they hear.

Quote:
We can't explain it

You can't explain it because it makes no sense at all.

Quote:
and neither does the Lord expect us to.

Yes He does.

Quote:
Romans 9:18-24 were written for this very reason. Paul knew there were bound to be people, like yourself, who would object to God's sovereign work of grace, making such accusations against Him like "That's not fair!" or "If that's the case, God is a monster!".

No, Romans 9:18-24 is not for people like me, it is for those who question God for intending to show His power in Pharaoh.

God did not create Pharaoh as a vessel unto honor, God had to [b]reform[/b] Pharaoh into a vessel unto honor.

If I was arguing against God, then, yes, Romans 9:18-24 would be for me, but I am not arguing against God as you think, I am arguing your theology/doctrines.
There is a great difference between arguing against God & arguing against your theology/doctrines.

Quote:
Quote:
In reality, all mankind have the ability not to be sinners; all mankind have the ability not to sin; all mankind have the ability to come to Christ and repent. Because, without the ability, they are not culpable.

The above quote exposes you as an outright Pelagian and heretic.

Since you can't agree to the common sense statement, you slander me. (Even though I am a Pelagian, you meant it as a slander)

Why don't you refute my statement with a common sense reply?

Quote:
plead with you to repent of this heresy and believe the Word of God, and the true Jesus Christ of the Word.

What, repent of common sense? are you kidding?

I plead with you, adopt a theology/doctrine that lines up with reality. Stop the nonsense and giving bullets to the atheists.

 2010/3/4 19:16Profile





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