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Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
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 Re:

Double post

 2010/3/2 10:18Profile
TaylorOtwell
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Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Logic,

OK, So, when Jesus talks about needing to be born again or born from above, that is something that we produce?

Jesus refers to Ezekiel 36 in John 3:

[i]Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.[/i] (John 3:5)

[i]Then I will [b]sprinkle clean water on you[/b], and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. [b]I will put My Spirit within you[/b] and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.[/i] (Ezekiel 36:25-27)

Also, Regarding God not making people good, what did God mean when he said [b]he[/b] would [b]cause[/b] the recipients of Ezekiel 36:25-27 to walk in his statutes?


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Taylor Otwell

 2010/3/2 12:21Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
TaylorOtwell asked:
OK, So, when Jesus talks about needing to be born again or born from above, that is something that we produce?

No.

Quote:
Also, Regarding God not making people good, what did God mean when he said [b]he[/b] would [/b]cause[/b] the recipients of Ezekiel 36:25-27 to walk in his statutes?

That which caused Israel to walk in his statutes would be he fact that Jews today are being saved, and in the end, God will bring all of Israel to the point where they will see that they have been rejecting their Messiah all along and therefore, acknowledg Him (Jesus).

Once a person who was convicted of their sins and relises the fact of God's atonement through Jesus' sacrifice, they will be [b]CAUSED[/b] to change. They choose to take on a new view on life, and a new motive for everything that they do. In these new aspects of their life will become actions or works that give a testimony of Christ in them.

Here is the [b]cause[/b]: The atonement is an [b]influence[/b] on one’s heart/soul. The selfless, loving sacrifice on our account is to break the heart of the sinner and [b]cause[/b] him to acknowledge his sin and the judgment of his sin. A revelation of the suffering of Christ should break and subdue ones heart and bring him to complete surrender to God. The atonement should so [b]affect[/b] our hearts that we turn from our disobedience in humble, sincere, and deep repentance, repenting out of a motive of love, remorse, and sincerity (1 John. 4:19).
The Atonement transforms and liberates through reciprocation (synergism), when men choose to obey the gospel of Jesus Christ from the heart because God was loving them all along, from the beginning.

 2010/3/2 12:48Profile









 Re: Born in Sin with sin nature or not?

Hi Ben,

As three pages have passed since my post, I'll quote you again.

Quote:
If men need a new nature then what good will warning them do? If their nature is wrong then they will not heed the warning. If their nature is the problem then they will refuse any teaching that might work to present them perfect in Christ. If the problem of sin lies in men's nature instead of in their free choice then evangelism is dumb. They need a new nature and preaching at them won't give them one. Otherwise we could preach the whole world into having a new nature and they wouldn't be able to refuse.

To my reply, you said:
Quote:
It would be more helpful if you dissected my post line by line. I wouldn't be offended. I can't tell what you disagree with otherwise. Your post didn't make much sense to me.

Because I'm limited online at the present time, I don't have time to find out if some of your comments are rooted in the previous posts of others; so, at face value, I will comment. With regard to my comments having not made much sense, perhaps it will take another post or two for each of us to work out how the other is reasoning.
Quote:
If men need a new nature then what good will warning them do?

'warning': Isa 59:20; Eze 3:17, 18, 19, 20, 21; Eze 33:6, 7, 8, 9; Matt 2:12, 22; Matt 3:7; Luke 3:7; Acts 10:22; Rom 2:2 - 16; [b]Rom 10:16, 17[/b]; Col 1:28; 1 Thess 4:6; Heb 11:7.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 [b]because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [i]that[/i] man whom he hath ordained[/b]; [i]whereof[/i] he hath given assurance unto all [i]men[/i], in that he hath raised him from the dead.

In other words, it appears from scripture, that like God has stated in 1 Cor 1:21, that He has made preaching [warning to flee from the wrath to come], effective in the saving of those who believe the message; 'faith comes by hearing'. Therefore your question, 'what good will warning them do?', is undermined by the testimony of scripture itself.
Quote:
If their nature is wrong then they will not heed the warning.

Again, scripture undermines this logic, because while undoubtedly some will not heed the warning, it is clear from the Old Testament that the onus upon the person who [i]does[/i] have a relationship with God, who does [i]know[/i] what He is saying to men, and who has been [i]charged to deliver that message[/i] to men, is [u]obedience[/u], regardless of the response of men to the message, including those who reject it. The man sent with the message has [u]his own soul to save[/u], regardless of how foolish he feels preaching the message. Clearly, God expects some people to heed the message. This is indisputably embedded in scripture.

So, maybe you are bothered about the word 'nature'? If so, how do you decipher Paul's statements here? 2 Cor 5:17, and Gal 6:15. He has, already, stated Rom 6:4, and Rom 6:6 - that [i]our old man is crucified with [him - Christ][/i] that we be freed from sin, which is our spiritual nature. It is quite clear that when we are born again we are still humans, so what 'nature' has become 'new', if not our [i][b]spiritual[/i][/b] nature?
Quote:
If their nature is the problem then they will refuse any teaching that might work to present them perfect in Christ.

It is not 'any teaching' which will present a person perfect in Christ, but the efficacy of the working of His death [i]in[/i] the believer, as the believer is 'planted' (or grafted) into Christ's death. Rom 6:5; John 12:24; 1 Cor 15:44 - 50; 1 Pet 1:23; John 15:3, 4, 5.

2 Peter 1: '...to them that have obtained like precious [u]faith[/u] with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [i]pertain[/i] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine [u]nature[/u], [b]having escaped[/b] the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Quote:
If the problem of sin lies in men's nature instead of in their free choice then evangelism is dumb.

I think I've already explained that God thinks evangelism is not dumb, because He has given men the power to choose to be spiritually baptised into Christ's death, thereby being made able to be raised into His resurrection life. Heb 10:14; Eph 2:5, 6; Rom 10:19, 20; Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, [b]and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob[/b]: 27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Quote:
They need a new nature and preaching at them won't give them one.

Please note the subtle but vital difference between Isa 59:20 and Rom 11:26, which I have emboldened. In this, Paul identifies the vital difference between the effect of faith (believing the word of God which brought the hearing of the gospel), and Rom 10:3, 4; Rom 3:3.

I don't know if you've followed me thus far, but I hope you can now see why I don't agree with this latest sentence, nor your conclusion, all of which, I believe, are based on a [your] faulty notion of how God intends men to be saved.
Quote:
Otherwise we could preach the whole world into having a new nature and they wouldn't be able to refuse.

Here, you seem to be equating the preaching with the believing?

Nowhere in scripture does God remove man's power to refuse Him, but He does present [reveal] Himself so fully in creation, and so fully in Jesus Christ, that He absolutely removes all reasons to reject Him, that a fallen man might reckon are legitimate (by his fallen reasoning). John 16:9; Rom 1:18, 19, 20, 21, 22; Jonah 2:4; 1 Thess 1:9; Mark 5:2, 3, 4, 5, 6.
Quote:
Are there any flaws in the reasoning I've presented that would invalidate my conclusion?

I hope you now see what I was trying to get at with my previous post, where I shared that God is intent upon restoring His image in man. That is a spiritual change, with many outworkings.

 2010/3/2 13:29
TaylorOtwell
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Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Logic,

Your moral influence theory doesn't make sense in light of various Scriptures:

[i]But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. [b]For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.[/b][/i] (2nd Corinthians 4:3-6)

This speaks of God actually shining light into our hearts and giving us the knowledge of the glory of God in Christ. God reveals the truth of the Gospel to the hearts of His people. An appreciation or moral influence of the atonement is primarily a fruit of faith. However, I don't deny that God often uses the moral influence of the atonement in bringing about conversion, but this influence is God bestowed.

[i][b]Of His own will He brought us forth[/b] by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.[/i] (James 1:18)


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Taylor Otwell

 2010/3/2 14:12Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
TaylorOtwell SAID:
Your moral influence theory doesn't make sense in light of various Scriptures:

But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2nd Corinthians 4:3-6)

This speaks of God actually shining light into our hearts and giving us the knowledge of the glory of God in Christ.

Yes, but what is that Light?
It is Jesus whom Israel reject & will not come to.

2nd Corinthians 4:3-6 is in the context of Israel “believing not” (2Corinth 4:4) “so the god of this age has blinded their minds” so they have a “veil upon their hearts” (2Corinth 3:15-16) “nevertheless when one shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away”.

There is no hindrance for them not to turn to the Lord that the veil to be taken away. Jesus is that Light which shines out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts (of us who choose to come to Jesus) to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God.

Therefore, once anyone comes to Jesus, that Light will shine in their hearts to give them light.

Quote:
God reveals the truth of the Gospel to the hearts of His people. An appreciation or moral influence of the atonement is primarily a fruit of faith. However, I don't deny that God often uses the moral influence of the atonement in bringing about conversion, but this influence is God bestowed.

[b]Of His own will He brought us forth[/b] by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures. (James 1:18)

James 1:18 is a contrast to James 1:15.

God’s will in James 1:18 is contrasting to the lust of man James 1:15.

“The word of truth” in James 1:18 is contrasting the “temptation" in James 1:14

God begets us in James 1:18, we beget death in James 1:15.

But God, with the Word of truth, by His own will begat us
Contrast this with:
We are tempted by our delinquent will to beget death.

James 1:14-15 But each one is tempted by his own longings/desires (our delinquent will as opposed to God’s) being drawn away by being seduced with them.
15: Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin: and sin, when it is finished, it [b]begets death[/b].
James 1:18 Of his own will [b]begat[/b] he us with the word of truth.

Therefore, the will of God only means thatis what He wanted. It does not discount our own choice in the matter.

 2010/3/2 16:50Profile









 Re:

Hi AlivetoGod,

When I use the word nature I mean this:

Your metaphysical constitution. Your body, soul, mind, spirit, etc. The way you are made. The way you are born.

One faculty of your nature is called the 'will'. This is the ability to choose. The ability to choose good or bad, love or selfishness, right or wrong, etc.

The actions of our will, our choices, our intentions - these are things that we are responsible for because they are our choices. Nothing makes us choose good or bad except ourselves.

On the other hand, the color of our skin, hair, eyes, how tall we are - these are things that are not our choices. We are not responsible for these things because we didn't choose to be born this way.

That's why we say it is wrong when someone chooses to do something wrong but we don't blame them if they are born handicapped. A person is not to blame for the way they are born. They are only to blame for what they choose.

Now a lot of people have been saying that our "nature" (the way we are born) actually forces us to do wrong things. People say our nature makes it so we can't do good things. People also say that the reason Jesus died for us is to change our natures.

I was showing how if our nature is the problem then we can't really do anything about it. Our nature is not up to us. We are born the way we are born. The way we are born is not our fault at all. Just like my hair and eye color are not my fault.

If I was born paralyzed from the waist down, it wouldn't be my fault that I couldn't walk and run. If there was a law that said I had to run, I would be unable to choose to obey because I would know that my legs do not work. I couldn't say that I chose to disobey because I did not really have any options to choose from.

In this situation my nature (my paralyzed legs) would be the real reason that I failed to follow the law. It wasn't my choice, it wasn't my will choosing the wrong thing, it wasn't my fault. Whoever was to blame for my paralysis would really be the cause of my inaction.

Now if I could overcome my paralysis at any given moment then it would be my choice and my fault. If this were the case then perhaps I would overcome it from day one because there would be nothing to stop me.

On the other hand, if I needed someone to heal me then I wouldn't be to blame for anything while I was waiting to be healed. It wouldn't be the fault of my choice, it would be the fault of my nature which I did not choose.

My nature is not my fault but something I have by birth. If something is my nature's fault then it is not my choice but the choice of him who gave me my nature.

My character on the other hand IS my fault because it is the moral quality of MY choices. My character is either good or bad. My character is how I USE the nature that I have. The choices I make determine my character. If my nature determined my character then it would not be my choice but the fault of my nature and him who gave it to me. I am responsible for my character but I can not help the nature I was born with.

 2010/3/2 18:37
knitefall
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Joined: 2010/3/2
Posts: 252


 the wrong question

Most will skip this because it’s too long.
But if you want what most of God’s Children do not have available, please, read this. It’s free.


Hello All,


This is real interesting of a topic. I was invited on here to look at something. I gave it a day and the Lord began to speak. There is no quick answer to the direct problem of the topic other than there being the issue of no phraseology of “sin nature” in the Bible.


There is a better way to address this. By asking the question of “How does the Holy Spirit work?” And then we get into the place of whether we are in the context of the life of any Believer or that of an unredeemed sinner. I’ll lay out some ground work then actually answer this question throughout the writing. Ending up with ultimately answering the original question posed.


I seem to come across these kinds of questions all the time. What I find is that usually something very important is overlooked. Now I am not one who claims to KNOW all or anything absurd. I do however have a relationship with God. The purpose of this writing is not to bash any beloved of God but to edify His children. I have limited time to write this but will add Scripture all the way through. Many will not have an attached address.


I will begin with attention to Believers first. According to most of the Church Body, there are five different views of the indwelling of the presence of the sin nature in the life of the believer. The first is Ignorance. Which is, that most of the Church doesn’t know she has a nature that is sinful and an enemy of God. The second, License. Which says that Justification is not an opponent to sin and sinful acts, (there is a difference between ‘The Sin’ and sinful acts. I will have to wait to get there). The third is Denial. Which is where people say that once they are Saved, the sin nature is totally eradicated. The forth is Struggle. Struggle is real interesting. It is because no matter what view one holds, Struggle seems to always be present. Struggle says, “I can defeat the devil and that I wage war against the sin nature by doing all these wonderful works.” This is the category that attempts to Sanctify self by means of the flesh or carnal abilities. This is defined as things like how much bible one reads, how many hours one prays, witnessing, fasting, praise and et cetera. These are known as moral actions. Then there is the fifth and final and correct view, Grace. Grace is from God. It gives place for no human merit. This is the God kind of Salvation from sin. Not sinful acts, but The Sin.


Through Romans, especially in the area of Rom 5:18 - 6:23, we find what’s called the definite article in the Greek. The word I’m referring to is translated in the KJV as ‘sin.’ However, in Young’s Literal Translation, that translation does a better job translating the Greek and keeping with the context. Where is says ‘sin’ there in the YLT it translates ‘sin’ as ‘The Sin.’ Now wait a second... We learn a couple of things; there are grammatical clues. 1.) These are definite articles. 2.) these are nouns, not verbs. 3.) the noun usage is singular -this is the presence thing.


Now, go back to Rom 4:22-24. The word ‘imputed’ (logizomai) equals ‘credited’ or ‘accounted.’ Keeping in mind, Paul is speaking to Believers. As I am for the moment. By Justification, the penalty of The Sin is removed. Through Sanctification, the power/ effects of The Sin is removed [as in, the more self and it’s ways dies at the Cross of Christ, (being what Christ there did for us), the more His Life is manifested in and through us. This is Christianity as contrasted with Saved by works]. And with the coming hope of Glory, being Glorified, we have the total presence of This Sin Bent removed. Remember, it’s all by Faith. That’s how it always has been. Faith is the only thing that pleases God. We have the Down Payment indwelling this earthly tabernacle. But Jesus is building a Mansion compared to this earthly broken tent. Why else would He need to come and Died on the Cross to be our propitiation? Propitiation: meaning atonement. Or my own definition, “turning point.” At that moment, our lives are no longer ours but they are His. As in, hidden in the Secret Place of the Most High which is Christ Jesus. Again, made possible by what He did for us at the Cross. Without a proper view of that Event that took place on the mount called Calvary, the Believer is very limited in Christian growth. So from that point on, the life of the sinner no longer is destined to hell. However, the effects are still there. Like if a poisonous gas tank was opened in a room. And the valve was shut down by the Holy Ghost. The gas is still there in the room until the ‘Holy Spirit Fan’ Sanctifies that out through a ventilation process. Where The Sin caused the valve to be wide open and pump out sinful practices and bents and desires, it no longer continues to do such. Now, By Faith, we are seated in the Heavenly place. In Romans six we learn that we were baptized (submerged) into the Body of Christ on the Cross. And if Jesus died, was buried and is now Resurrected to the Heavenly Throne, next to God His Father, where are we? Yes my dear reader Friend, in Jesus in the Heavenly place. Now, that’s our position. Our condition is still here in earth. That means we still have this ‘The Sin’ but it is rendered inactive upon receiving the Free Gift of Jesus. It’s still there but not active. At the end of Romans five, we learn that the old man is dethroned and the Holy-Divine-Spirit-Nature now resides in the heart and mind of every believer. How is this possible? By this imputed Righteousness we opened with in the beginning of this particular paragraph. When God the Father looks down on us from the throne, He only has eyes of no condemnation. He sees not us and our faults and failures and shortcomings but only His Son Jesus. THAT’S how we are able to go to Heaven. So then there is no need to be in denial of the presence of The Sinful nature. We have a new nature!


Why else would the Lord have to come? If one says he has no sin, he deceives himself and the Truth is not in him. If you are a Beloved of God Believer, since you have believed in the Lord, YOU HAVE SINNED! If you say or think you have not, you just lied and committed another sin. Of coarse, this is not place for License, we talked about that already. The truth is, if God were to strip away every good thing He has ever planted in you, in your core being, you hate God. Just like, if you feel disappointed in yourself after sinning, that is because you still think that you could have done better. To please God or whatever. Often, this is mistaken for conviction. If you still think there you have anything to offer God, you have not arrive yet. Because for the rest of your life, you will try and use that “what you think is good in you” to try and earn God’s Love and approval. One item after another will be proven selfish and sinful by God. If a Beloved Believer thinks he or she can earn God’s Love, he or she will. And will burn themselves out until they quit God. Why? Because their object of Faith is not the Cross of Jesus and what was accomplished there but rather themselves and what they can do. What is this “The Sin?” It is the belief that “I can do better” or “I can provide for myself.” This is to go against God’s Word. Not the Scripture necessarily but what God would speak. Look at Adam. He thought he could get something better than what God has provided. Now subsequently and consequently, we have all manner of sinful acts that are produced from this inherent condition. Why does one sin? Because he or she thinks that they can get something that God is not wanting them to have. This God calls idolatry. Because we want to serve some other thing instead of Trusting in God’s ability to provide.


What is Faith? Faith is not presumption as most think it is. Biblical Faith is Hearing from God and believing He is able to perform what He said He would. Then after this Faith action, resulting works will occur. Now, Abraham believed God and it was accounted (imputed) unto him as Righteousness. He went up to sacrifice his only son. This work proved he believed. The work did not make him Righteous but being a believer, he worked. Get it? So, if you as a Believer are doing works to Sanctify yourselves, you’re in error. As all of us are at some point. So, we being totally bankrupt of being capable of any goodness, we believe God has made Provision through Jesus and will continue to provide based on His Goodness and Love, not based on any of our merit.


Now, back to the before mentioned items. Why they would Jesus need to come if there was nothing in us to make us want to sin? I will kindly and humbly remind that since we were Believers, we sinned. That means there is still something in us that bends our desires towards sinful acts. Behind that stands the culprit. ‘The Sin’ that takes advantage of our will, emotions, desires and mind. This is why God has to give us a new Body in the Coming day. This one is corrupt. Few realize, there is a difference between soul and Spirit. Our soulish realm is the totally corrupted and bankrupt part. God only works by the Spirit. The Spirit working with the life of the Believer (due to properly placed Faith) changes the desires of the Believer and therefore the bodily actions will result in glorifying God’s name. Again, if we attempt this on our own power and will, -that being corrupt- it will manifest in works of unrighteousness. When we trust in ourselves, this is what the Bible refers to as Grieving the Holy Ghost. Once we Grieve Him by not trusting totally and completely in the Cross as the means of our Righteousness and Sanctification, there will be actions of sin. It’s not the beer bottle in and of itself that is sinful. It’s not even the woman you’re seeing that you’re not married to that is sinful. It is that feverish desire to attain something that you think you don’t have. You see my friends, God has already provided everything we will ever need. It’s predicated upon our Faith however. And you should realize by now what I’m going to say- the Cross of Jesus. More specifically, everything Jesus was and had on the Cross, when He died, that’s what is imputed into our account upon believing what God Spoke about being our Righteousness. And freely so! We DO NOT work for this folks!


And if there were no bent in us towards the works of evil(which is placing from From what God provided to self and self’s ability) why would God need to give the Gift of repentance? We don’t even know what to pray for. AT Robertson commentary says, Romans 8:26, 27 is “helpeth” which is sunantilambano, made up on sun “together with” anti “over against” and lambano “to take.” The word speaks of the action of a person coming to another’s aid by taking hold over against that person, of the load he is carrying. WE cannot do this Faith walk on our own. And repenting from individual sins is still attempting to convince yourself and God that you can do better next time. Biblical repentance is simply turning from Faith in self to provide Salvation, Sanctification and Glorification, and placing it upon the Event that Jesus did on Calvary. An innocent man died to be a Sacrifice for us. So we match this by taking up His Life and all He accomplished as our own. This is that Free Gift. Anything other than the Cross is of the flesh and is now become an idolatry against God’s Nature. Thus, The Sin Nature of man.


Zodhiates is helpful when he says: “like a contest in a race” concerning our Faith agony. That is the biggest battle in the Christian life. That is what satan will always attack. He’ll lie and tell you that you can do better for yourself, just take this sin or that sin. That is not the sin nature. But only proves that there exists one. Why was Jesus able to go and eat with sinners and be where whores were and drunks? Not because He Tried Really Hard by gritting His teeth and saying He can do it! But there was not a shred of Sinful desire in Him that the Devil could pull from or latch onto and cause His eyes to look and see what’s over somewhere other than where His Father said to be. This extends to all that Jesus did and said. Again, we, by the Faith of Jesus, have all His Righteousness freely given to us that we do not need to earn our own. We cannot earn our own. Everything we do will result in sin because it comes from sin.


We have been talking about the condition of a Believer a lot. Positionally, when we do things by the Spirit, it is not of selfishness or of a motivation that we did not know was there. We’ll use Romans again to see this through. Almost done... How are you all holding up? Take a deep breath and Praise God for a moment. And when you are ready, read on. You’re all my friends and I love you. I want you to know these things that no man can beguile your Reward.


Remember, this is an issus of How the Holy Spirit works in the Life of a Believer. Or ‘Why’ He would need to, if you will see it that way.

Romans 8 starts, There is therefore now no condemnation (because we were born already dead to God according to many Scriptures) to them which are in Christ Jesus (planted in Him be Faith), who walk not after the flesh(self’s will and understanding of how to live for God and rid self of sin and bend toward doing sins), but after the Spirit(which is the Cross of Christ). For the law of the Spirit One of four spiritual laws that work in the world) of life(the “Zoe” life which is the God kind of Life that begins at Spiritual Re-Birth and continues into Eternity with God). in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death(second most powerful law, the most powerful being the Law of Life in Christ).  For what the law could not do(had no power to change us), in that it was weak through the flesh(due to The Sin), God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh(Provided a sinless, perfect Sacrifice to make atonement), and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh(Put an end to The Sin and consequently, sinful acts):  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us(Begins in Christ), who walk not after the flesh(our human efforts and abilities), but after the Spirit(God’s Plan for us to live by-the Cross).  For they that are after the flesh(their own way) do mind the things of the flesh(attempt to please God by works of flesh); but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit(What God has already Provided). For to be carnally minded is death(Means that we absolutely cannot provide for ourselves, anything. God is serious when He says this. It is the number one cause of all problems within the Body. The Lord’s children have been fighting over stupid things for years because they do not understand what the Spirit means by these Scriptures).; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace(Peace is not a feeling, it’s something we are given. Life is the Zoe, eternal life with all credit going to God and none on our part).  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God(Until it is forever gone in the time of our Glorification): for it is not subject to the law of God(does not want God or his Ways), neither indeed can be(Cannot be tamed or “fixed” so). So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God(Faith in the Cross of Calvary). But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit(all by faith, never forget that), if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you(Down payment). Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His(The New Spirit, not anymore the old man The Sin nature).

A law is a governing and operating principle. And no matter what you tell yourself, it will operate in your life! In Romans seven, we see the others in operation. It starts in verse four-teen: For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin(no hope of self redemption). For that which I do I allow not(do not want to do): for what I would, that do I not(bent toward sin due to a spiritual law at work); but what I hate, that do I(products of The Sin). If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good(but if you make a law on yourself[“I will not do it again God...] that law YOU made, you will find it does not hold any power to do right). Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin(The Sin) that dwelleth in me(In who? Me and you). For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing(Bankrupt of Righteousness): for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not(Not within self). For the good that I would I do not(have no power to when looking towards self as a Christian to provide for own Sanctification): but the evil which I would not(Because of a renewed mind and new desires), that I do(A reactivated Sinful nature/ reopened tank of poisonous gas). Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin(The Sin) that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me(Law of sin and death we are all born with). For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am(Good confession)! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord(Salvation unto Glorification). So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin(Thus, the need for Jesus to come outside of the framework of humanity without a sinful nature. For if He came from another man, He would have the same broken sinful desires and bents toward evil. That is not my Jesus folks).

So we have the 1.) law of sin and death 2.) law of God(the Word) 3.) law of our mind 4.) law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. That last one listed is the most powerful. This is why, if you are Born from Above, there is no need to fear when you experience an act of fear. No truly Born Again Little One in Christ wants to sin. But we do so. Hence, why Jesus died on the Cross so that by the Spirit, God makes us Perfect and free of The Sin(by Faith). Then He works on our Soul while in the earth and thus, the body acts accordingly. Preachers of today address the soul items. Our willpower and human ability. However, what did we learn earlier? This is not God’s way. The human way makes way for self-righteousness and pride. Understand the Mind of God.

Now, to get more specifically down to the addressing of how the Holy Spirit works in the life of the Believer. Since God loves us with a Divine Love and His kind of Love in unselfish, we receive freely this: ‘The Law of the Spirit of Life through Jesus and His Finished Work on Calvary.’ This is defined as, “The Spiritual Law established by Christ and what He accomplished at the Cross that enables the Holy Spirit and establishes the legal boundaries by which the Holy Ghost can work in and through the life of any Believer.”

Notice in your own life, if you’re honest, the sinful activities that are there. This took me a while to come to grips with. I came from a Holiness church and it was wonderful for the Light that the pastor had been given. However, there was a constant struggle to maintain sinless perfection. Hypocrisy ran rampant through the building. But I was still surrounded by wonderful brothers and sisters in the Lord. So what was going on? We did not understand the Law of the Spirit. Which is 1.) God works only by the Spirit that is only enabled though the Cross of Christ Jesus. 2.) God only works within those boundaries set up within the Cross of our Lord Jesus. Romans 3:27 and 28 says: Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. The same Cross that got us in, keeps us in. Of coarse the Sin Nature exists. And even in the lives of every Believer. But that relationship has been shut down. Like an old friend. The two people still are alive but there is no relationship. So for us, the old man is gone as the main influence in our lives as Believers. Now if we ignore the Plan God set up, we activate that old man and his dirty works of sinful behavior. Many in the Church do not know why they sin or how to stop it. It is mainly due to those who claim to be spiritual but they are carnal. I must now comment some harsh sentences. There is a serious lack of any kind of discernment in the Body of Christ whatsoever. If you call yourself a follower of Christ and do not heed the warnings God is not pleased with the acceptance of such filth that's being tolerated. I have several acquaintances that have been pulled into that lifestyle of works. This discussion has nothing to do with one's abilities. Where sin reigns, the love of many grows cold - look that verse up too. Now let's examine something. God says, "if you do this, I'll do that." So, knowing what God EXPECTS and you do not obey the Lord, you have become a part of the problem. That makes you guilty. Again, I'm not attacking anyone (this is actually a good conversation to have) I love the brethren with the love God has given me. I have also served in the works category with some wonderful people. Most were not Spiritual Christians. You become a Christian once you place your Faith in what Jesus did, for you personally, on Calvary's Cross. Not just popping up one day, thinking you go to Heaven because you want to. Or faking your Righteousness, which incidentally is the conducting works by the arm of the flesh is. So, being that I love this dear Body and had buddies that died for this thing, it's my duty to uphold the constitutes that have been erected under the Mighty Hand of God that has made this Body Great. If we neglect the responsibilities, we do not deserve the freedoms, do we? The only freedom we truly have is spiritual freedom in Christ Jesus. Rom 6:3 - no, it's not talking about water baptism either. Would you like to be a part of the solution or continue to be a part of the problem now that you are responsible for the information you have been given?

WE do not deserve any of God’s Love. We’re totally unqualified for it. If you know this, then you are almost there to Godly repentance. Knowing that you will never be able to produce anything Good to offer God is where it’s at. Once arrived at this point, God can now take over your life and BE Life through you. Since we were dead in The Sin. He will not work outside of the boundaries of the Cross. Anything else is sinfully flesh. As Jesus is, so are we! What a Free Gift! We as humans to habitual activities. We also go from one extreme to another. One side of Faith is hyper-faith that says, “I can do whatever I want since I don’t have a sin nature/ I believe in Jesus.” The other side of perverted Faith is I must work my way to heaven. Good Luck... ‘No such thing as luck. So if you trust in sleeve length or hair color or what you eat or how long your dress is or if you put sugar in your tea, you are living as a carnal Christian. Yes, you’ll go to Heaven I’m sure. God is bigger than that. But the Holy Spirit does not work because of those things, He works because God has made the Way via the Cross and the accomplished work done there on Calvary. One man said, “Christ is the Source, the Cross is the Means.” There is no shorted way of saying it. What does Galatians 5:16 say? “This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.” It does not say there will be no temptations. Only that we would not fulfill the sinful desires. And that of going away from properly anchored Faith in the Cross of Jesus. It does not refer to works of the flesh as in sinful acts. The sinful acts are a product of The Sin in the person, producing sins plural. Galatians 3:2 and 3 says, “This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? No! ‘Not made perfect by the worldly understanding of how to live for God.

So by the use of the Cross and acceptance of God’s Will, we receive everything that Christ died with that He had when He died on the Cross. His Peace, Joy, Love, Righteousness... we can add until eternity to the list! It’s all ours upon turning from self’s Sin Nature and trusting exclusively in God’s method of Salvation, Sanctification and Glorification.

I hope you have enjoyed this. God really has blessed me with His Presence while doing this. If there is something in here that is questionable, re-read it and make sure you did not mistake my comment for something else. And please, if you have a detestable spirit, do not open your mouth and prove to everyone you do not know what you’re talking about. God has the very ability to change even our thoughts in how we think about things. He’s a wonderful God, Praise Him by placing Faith in the Cross of Christ!

In the Grip of His Grace, Shawn.

 2010/3/2 21:22Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re: the wrong question

Logic,

In light of the previous verses...

And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” (John 6:65)

It sounds like you are saying the veil is removed after we come to Jesus (and I agree), but how do we come to Jesus?


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2010/3/3 7:30Profile









 Re:

"no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

Quote:
how do we come to Jesus?

God grants everyone who believes his testimony about his son Jesus to come to Jesus. So, we come to Jesus by believing God and believing Jesus. Anyone can come. The Spirit commands everyone to come to Jesus.


(Taylor I don't mean to jump in between you and Logic but for the benefit of others may comment on things you say.)

 2010/3/3 8:15





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