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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Born in Sin with sin nature or not?

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Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

No one is guilty for what Adam did; sin is not heretitary.
Sin is not inevitable, we don't have to sin.
Since God commanded it, He knows we can do it.
Babies do not sin. We are not born sinners; we become a sinner once we start sinneing.

This dreadful doctrine of original sin is rediculous!

 2010/2/27 10:16Profile
wind_blows
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Joined: 2009/1/4
Posts: 353


 Re:

Quote:
Miscariages, newborns, todlers die with out sin.


__________________________________

I have a niece who is 1 year and 8 months old. I was babysitting her and her older brother the other day. She was playing with a toy and her brother walked up and took it from her. She got so angry that she stood up screamed mine with such conviction that her brother stood there for a moment stunned. Then with out any warning she full force ran directly into her brother and knocked him down. I don't understand how anyone can not call that sin. I love my niece but she was angry and she acted on that anger to attack her brother. I understand at her young age she does not realize what she did was sin(that has to be explained and taught to her) but she still acted on anger. She was angry! Now you want to tell me that its not sin because she is a toddler but if she did the same thing at the age of 12 or 13 it would be sin? How exactly does that work?

in Him
Ellie

 2010/2/27 11:26Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
wind_blow said:
She was playing with a toy and her brother walked up and took it from her. She got so angry that she stood up screamed mine with such conviction that her brother stood there for a moment stunned. Then with out any warning she full force ran directly into her brother and knocked him down. I don't understand how anyone can not call that sin.

Do you understand that children are imature and still develpoing mentally & emotionally?

The fact that children do things that seem as sin does not prove that they have a sin nature. Otherwise that fect that Adam & Eve & Lucifer sinned proves that they had sin natures in order for them to sin.

Quote:
I don't understand how anyone can not call that sin.

It may be sin objectivle, but may not be sin subjectivley.
Furthermore, it is not against God, but at the most, against their perants.
Childeren are not accountable to God but their perants.

Quote:
I love my niece but she was angry and she acted on that anger to attack her brother. Now you want to tell me that its not sin because she is a toddler but if she did the same thing at the age of 12 or 13 it would be sin? How exactly does that work?

If we carefully consider the development of a child, the answer becomes clear. As a baby enters the world, the natural inherited appetites are already developed and the child's natural love of conscious freedom begins to express itself.

These fully developed appetites are not bad or wrong in & of themselves, in fact appetite is good unless it's used wrongly &/or not kept in check. An infant begins to form the habit of obeying desire, fulfilling their appetites; the appetite deepens & strengthens as time passes. The danger comes when the appetites become toward unlawful things to be satisfied. [b]The sin is realized when it is known to be wrong and willfully chosen to be continued in the knowledge of being wrong, thus becoming accountable.

Finally, the moment of true moral responsibility arrives at the age of accountability[/b]; the child is now old enough to truly understand wrong (Isaiah 7:16, Deut 1:39). This will probably be earlier in a Christian home than in a non-Christian one.

If Adam, in the maturity of his reason, with full consciousness of the morality of his actions could give in to such temptation, it is still possible that a child will not because sin is always a choice. However, [b]the moment that child (being mature enough to understand) chooses selfishly (in the knowledg of being wrong), that is when he truly sins it sins[/b]. From this point on (and NOT before) God holds the child responsible for its own actions and destiny.

 2010/2/27 14:16Profile
wind_blows
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Joined: 2009/1/4
Posts: 353


 Re:

Sorry Logic
If I follow your line of thinking then you are saying my niece could be raised to always choose to do what is right and good and therefore would never have need of Jesus as her Savior. That goes against the Word. No person can choose to live free from sin apart from Christ.

ellie

 2010/2/27 15:41Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
wind_blows said:
If I follow your line of thinking then you are saying my niece could be raised to always choose to do what is right and good and therefore would never have need of Jesus as her Savior.

Yes, amen! Wouldn't that be glorious for God? Just think how that would please Him; some one who has never chose to sin against him?

Quote:
That goes against the Word.

How so?
God commadns us not to sin, therefore is is very biblical.

Quote:
No person can choose to live free from sin apart from Christ.

Amen!!!
A person who would never choose to sin is one who [b]has Jesus as Lord[/b] from very Early in their life, before their age of accountability.

God would Love for a person to not need Jesus as Savior, but one MUST have Him as Lord!

 2010/2/27 16:47Profile
wind_blows
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Joined: 2009/1/4
Posts: 353


 Re:

Logic
I honestly disagree with you and just about everything you have said. I have tried to see your point of view over the many different threads to no avail the only conclusion that I come to have is that it really profits us nothing to carry on this discussion any further. In the end you will say I am wrong and I will say you are wrong. I fully understand why the moderators discourage this kind of endless debating, it really does nothing to further Christs Kingdom or help share truth with the lost. Valuable lesson learned:)



in Him
Ellie




 2010/2/27 18:06Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
I honestly disagree with you and just about everything you have said.

How?
If it is imposible for a person to choose to live free from sin with Jesus as Lord, then how is our condemnation just?

 2010/2/27 19:45Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

""Yes, amen! Wouldn't that be glorious for God? Just think how that would please Him; some one who has never chose to sin against him?""

If that would please God, why before Adam was created then Eve, were all that are God's be chosen in Christ before before the foundation of the world? Christ is all and in all that the Father has given Him, even before the foundation of the world. God already had the sin nature taken care of before Adam, with free will chose to sin and sin came upon the whole world. Christ in you the hope of Glory and none else can compare, even a person who did not sin, which is impossible.

All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.

Ephesians 1:1-23 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Again Quote:

How?
""If it is imposible for a person to choose to live free from sin with Jesus as Lord, then how is our condemnation just?""

Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Ro 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

God's condemnation is always just, as is Christ in you the hope of glory.

He can make me any way He pleases, condemned or made righteousness by another Person Jesus Christ in me, this is what pleases God, "Christ in you the hope of Glory". By His working not mine.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2010/2/27 20:28Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Wouldn't that be glorious for God? Just think how that would please Him; some one who has never chose to sin against him?

:)

those who are blameless in their ways are his delight - Prov 11:20

 2010/2/27 20:34
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 671
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Quote:
Sorry Logic If I follow your line of thinking then you are saying my niece could be raised to always choose to do what is right and good and therefore would never have need of Jesus as her Savior. That goes against the Word. No person can choose to live free from sin apart from Christ. ellie



Your right Ellie - when you really look at all the arguments, discussion and Scripture with an open mind and heart for the truth the choice is pretty obvious - the problem is sometimes we get so consumed with our pet doctrines we loose the ability to see clearly - I know this has happened to me before too.

God bless,

Patrick
www.jonahproject.com


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Patrick Ersig

 2010/2/27 22:48Profile





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