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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Christisking wrote:
I know scripture supports a sin nature...
...both Scripture and nature prove original sin.

Scripture does not support a sin nature, Show me one verse.

Quote:
Have you ever had children? Do you have to each a child to lie or to tell the truth.

The fact that we sin does not prove that we have a sin nature.

Adam & Even sinned. Does that prove they had a sin nature?
Lucifer sin. Does that prove that he had a sin nature?

You all seem to you the fact that mankind sins as proofe of this so called sin nature.
If the fact that we sin proves it, then Adam & Eve & Lucife also had a sin nature.

You must use something other that the fact that we sin to prove sin nature.

Quote:
From the observation of over a 100 babies and children you couldn't convince me in a million years that we don't have sin nature - go work in the nursery at church for a couple of weeks and the case will be settled.

To say that we are born with a "sin nature", you must be assuming that an infant wants to sin.
However, as an infant, one does not understand sin and therefore cannot want to sin.

To say that we are born with a "sin nature", you must be assuming that an infant already understands the concept of sin and/or is accountable for its own moral actions.

Childeren do not diliberatly do that which they know is wrong for the purpose of doing wrong.
Children are yet developing, learning & testing their world around them.
If you accuse children of sin, you are as ignorant as you say they are sinful.

Quote:
Quote:
It starts when we are children; there is a time when a child does not know to choose between good or evil

You are right - they naturally choose evil 100% of the time unless they are taught differently

Wrong, it is natural for a child to love their parents with out being taught.

The problem here is the definition of sin.

Sin must be willful, intentional, volitional choice do do that which you know is wrong in order to make one culpable It must be this so that he may be convicted.
If I didn't choose to sin, I am not culpable.
If I didn't choose to sin, how can you convict me of condemnation?

If I am caused to sin other than by my own choice, I can not be convicted with guilt, for I would have an excuse.
Why did I sin?
I was born this way, It is my nature to sin, I couldn't hepl it.

Please, lets start making sense.
You all need to answer the question that asks:
How are we culpable if we have a sin nature?

Quote:
very run across a 1 or 2 year old who has not been taught to be good?!?! AHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! They are naturally the most selfish and sinful creatures on the face of the earth

Have you run across a 1 or 2 year old who has not a concience that tells them they did wrong?

That conscience is part of our good nature which influences us to do good.

The fact is that people corrupt their [b]own[/b] way (Gen 6:12), doing that which they [b]know is wrong[/b] (Rom 1:19-20); searing their conscience as with a hot iron so to forget God to ease themselves of their own condemnation.

Fact is, if we truly had a so called "sin nature" we would have an excuse before God for our sin.

[b]Try this:[/b]
Just try to convict your naighbor of Adam's guilt.
He will laugh in your face.
Now convict him of his own guilt, then you will have his attention.

 2010/2/22 19:26Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
iansmith wrote:
and if mankind is inclined towards what they want... since they do not want God they are sinners!

"but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." -Romans 5:8

If by our very nature we are inclined towards what we want... and we do not want God... we are sinners.

Okay, but their are many people who actually do want God.

There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band. A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, who gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always(Acts 10:1-2):
He wanted God, yet he was unsaved.
According to you, he wasn't a sinner.

 2010/2/22 19:31Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
TaylorOtwell said:
I agree. He was adding to the lot from his very birth! "I was brought forth in iniquity..."

Did you actually read what I posted?

David was so emotional, he wasn't trying to be doctrinal.
Stop using that as Doctrine.
He was adding to the lot from when he commited adultry.

Tell me how we are culpable for sin if sin is unavoidable, inevitable, and we must sin by necessity of our nature?

 2010/2/22 19:34Profile
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Quote:
Okay, but their are many people who actually do want God.



The Word of God speaks clearly: "There is none that understandeth, [b]there is none that seeketh after God[/b]." -Romans 3:11

The Word also says, "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." -Jeremiah 29:13

How do we reconcile these seemingly incompatible bible verses. An atheist would look at this and say something to the effect, "your scriptures contradict themselves, this is proof that your God is fake." But we know that there must be a way to reconcile these scriptures in light of what we know of the Father.

I believe that Paul does show how these seemingly contradictory acts can be brought together in his sermon to the Athenians in Acts 17:27, "[b]God did this so that men would seek him[/b] and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us."

God acted first! Man does not by his nature seek after God, that much is made clear in the scriptures... the Lord has to work in the heart of a man to prompt him to seek Him. In fact the verse before, in Acts 17:26 spells out how God ordains our circumstances to prompt us to seek after him!

Understanding God's sovereignty only makes his love for us all that more precious. He was the one who stepped towards us, even when we were running away from him and headlong into our own ruin. "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." -Romans 5:8


_________________
Ian Smith

 2010/2/22 19:46Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
iansmith said:
The Word of God speaks clearly: "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." -Romans 3:11

In context, Romans 3:11 is answering the question, "are we better than they?" (Rom 3:9)
Paul answerse the question, "we have before proved both Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin"

In other words, Both [b]groups[/b] of the Jews and Greeks are all under sin [b]by proof of the law[/b].

Both [b]groups[/b] of the Jews and Greeks do not seeketh after God.

 2010/2/22 20:04Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1530
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Logic wrote:
No, mankind is naturally inclined towards what they want.



Yes we are inclined to what we want because are self-minded.

In God's Kingdom:- Jesus is Lord
In Satan's Kingdom:- Self is Lord.

The essence of sin is ‘selfishness’ inclined towards want we want or living independently of God (Isa 53:6 2 Cor 5:15).

Quote:
Logic wrote:
The curse of Adam's original sin is that we all physically die because we are cut off from the Tree of Life. Nothing more.



That's complete nonsense, so you are saying that we are not cut of from God only the tree of life, so that means our heart would be pure and aware of God when we are born.

Matthew 5:8 Jesus said, Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Quote:
Our fruit, weather sin or righteousness comes from what choose to do of our own volition, being influenced by what we love or what we put our affections on.



So if we are born with a clean Heart and can see God and are fully are aware of his majesty and Holiness we would then pour our love on him just because of who he is then we would naturally chose the right thing to do.....

The truth is we are not aware of God, we are born lost, blind, with no knowledge of God, with a heart that's wicked and sets it's affections on what it wants.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it.

Matthew 15:19-20, Jesus said: out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man.

The heart is the problem. Your heart is evil, mean, wicked, and nasty. It is defiled. It is corrupt. It is contaminated.

We are born inclined towards we want.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2010/2/22 20:24Profile
TaylorOtwell
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Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
Did you actually read what I posted? David was so emotional, he wasn't trying to be doctrinal. Stop using that as Doctrine. He was adding to the lot from when he commited adultry. Tell me how we are culpable for sin if sin is unavoidable, inevitable, and we must sin by necessity of our nature?



Logic,

You again demonstrate your failure reckon with the Scripture. It is simply an innovation you bring to the text that he "wasn't trying to be doctrinal".

Paul states that all Scripture is profitable for "doctrine". David says he was "brought forth in iniquity". He needed a Savior from birth!


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2010/2/22 20:28Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
Okay, but their are many people who actually do want God. There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band. A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, who gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always(Acts 10:1-2): He wanted God, yet he was unsaved. According to you, he wasn't a sinner.



God begins drawing people to Himself before they even hear the Gospel.


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2010/2/22 20:30Profile
Veronica226
Member



Joined: 2010/2/3
Posts: 144
Montana

 Re:

Logic,

Quote:
Scripture does not support a sin nature, Show me one verse.



Someone already did in Psalm 51:5: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." You can not say that you can't get a doctrine from this because 2 Timothy 3:16 says that "ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
So ALL Scripture can be used for doctrine.

Quote:
Fact is, if we truly had a so called "sin nature" we would have an excuse before God for our sin.

Not true. While we cannot truly account for our sin nature, we still have to account for our sinS. Sin nature (aka the flesh) is just that: a nature. Our sins however are actions that we are accountable for. And our sins are the outflow of our sin nature. "Sin nature" just means a bent towards sin.

I actually find Isaiah 7:16 to prove sin nature. because it says: "For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good," It's sounds like the child doesn't know to refuse EVIL. So he is actually choosing the evil rather than the good because he can't choose the good without Christ.

Quote:
To say that we are born with a "sin nature", you must be assuming that an infant wants to sin.
However, as an infant, one does not understand sin and therefore cannot want to sin.
To say that we are born with a "sin nature", you must be assuming that an infant already understands the concept of sin and/or is accountable for its own moral actions.



Just because you don't understand that something is a sin doesn't mean you can't want to sin. Example: say someone doesn't know that having sex out side of marriage is a sin. But they WANT to have sex before marriage. They are by definition wanting to sin, even if they don't know it's a sin. GOD doesn't forget that it's a sin. So if the person does have sex outside of marriage, but doesn't understand that it is a sin, is he then sinning? I would say yes, because sooner or later he will feel guilty even if he doesn't know it was a sin.

If there is no sin nature how do you reconcile Romans 8?
For example Romans 8:12-14 "Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God."
If there is no sin nature why did Paul always talk about us warring against the sin nature (or flesh)? Why did he tell us to put off the old nature and put on the new if there wasn't/isn't a "old nature" to put off?
How do you explain our bent or leaning towards sin if there is no sin nature? If we are born morally neutral then shouldn't it be just as easy to choose good as it is evil? But it is easier to choose to do evil than good if God hasn't regenerated your heart. So how do we account for that?

In Christ,
Veronica


_________________
Veronica

 2010/2/22 20:39Profile









 Re: Logic

this thread makes me howl like a gut shot dawg.

there, i just stopped howling.

Now does that mean i'm a dog?

or that i'm a human just howling like a dog, what been gut shot?

Quote:
Scripture does not support a sin nature, Show me one verse.



okay, will do: Jeremiah 17:9

9The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?

threads like these............

 2010/2/22 20:43





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