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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Who was Jesus addressing in Mathew 5?

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Giggles
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Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


 Re:

Quote:
Preacher Parsly said:
by PreachParsly on 2010/2/4 5:55:53

Here is what the text says:

5:1And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

That is the audience...


I thought the same thing once, but take a look at the text wrapping up the sermon:

Matthew 7:28 When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.

Please don't forget also, that not all "diciples" that followed Jesus did in fact, become believers. See John 6.



Valid points, but the question is not who listened to the sermon, but who is it addressed to.

As for disciples not becoming believers, there is also the other side of that coin, where not all believers become disciples:

Joh 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

The question must be answered apart from periphreal information, i.e. who else listened and what there response is.


_________________
Paul

 2010/2/4 13:24Profile









 Re: Who was Jesus addressing in Mathew 5?

makrothumia said

Quote:
the very word I speak will judge him.

Thanks for pointing this out. It looks like a very useful key, and I look forward to picking up on the other things it may open in scripture.

makrothumia also pointed out that faith comes by hearing. The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ is 'Repent'. Now, does He say that to unbelievers, or believers?

We know that amongst the disciples were those who were consciously watching for the Messiah (John 1). But we don't know that all whom Jesus specifically called, had consciously been hoping for His appearing - although by the time He'd risen, they had been putting their unregenerate minds to what might change in Israel, that they had been taught to expect by their religious training.

Surely, in the sense that Paul writes 'Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God', there was not one person in the multitudes that day, who was born again. So they were all unbelievers - even His closest disciples. I love this, because it gives me Christ's example of what it is to preach the gospel.

We are far too used to hearing it again and again in church, as if it's for us (not that it isn't for us), when really, it's for those that [i]don't[/i] know Him yet.

Giggles suggested
Quote:
if you have never mourned over sin, if you don't hunger and thirst for righteousness, etc then it sounds like that person hasn't been regenerated through conversion.

Ezekiel 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.


Clearly, it doesn't take regeneration to mourn over sin. That's why God introduced the law of Moses when He did, just after they left Egypt, because they had no idea of how much better a life there would be if rhey turned from their idolatry. To some extent, that's one of the most remarkable things about Moses, he, having been brought up to adulthood in Pharoah's palace, preferring to please God, rather than men. King Saul, later, faltered, when inevitably he had to make a similar choice.

Do we deceive ourselves?

 2010/2/4 13:32
Giggles
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Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


 Re:

Quote:
Giggles suggested
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

if you have never mourned over sin, if you don't hunger and thirst for righteousness, etc then it sounds like that person hasn't been regenerated through conversion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ezekiel 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.


Clearly, it doesn't take regeneration to mourn over sin. That's why God introduced the law of Moses when He did, just after they left Egypt, because they had no idea of how much better a life there would be if rhey turned from their idolatry. To some extent, that's one of the most remarkable things about Moses, he, having been brought up to adulthood in Pharoah's palace, preferring to please God, rather than men. King Saul, later, faltered, when inevitably he had to make a similar choice.

Do we deceive ourselves?



Alive-to-God,

I referred to the beatitudes as a whole. I in no way said that segmenting one of them off as a stand-alone is proof of regeneration. The converted will bear signs of each of beatitude in their lives, not merely one. As for that Ezekiel passage, it's curious you mention it because isn't that story an OT shadow of salvation? The sighers and criers, those mourning over sin, were marked as to avoid being slain with the rest.


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Paul

 2010/2/4 14:25Profile
Giggles
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Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


 Re:

DELETED. I felt I shoudn't pursue where this post led.


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Paul

 2010/2/4 14:43Profile
whyme
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Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Like all sermons, the message is intended for those who hear, the sermon is useful, however, only for those who understand. The sermon describes the nature and way of kingdom living so ultimately, only those who have been transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light can understand it, desire it, much less live it. The teaching sets forth impossible standards (apart from Christ) for the Christian believer not ethical morays for the world. Matthew 7 and 8 make that pretty clear.

 2010/2/4 15:21Profile
makrothumia
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Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 724
Texas

 Re:

Re: The teaching sets forth impossible standards (apart from Christ) for the Christian believer not ethical morays for the world. Matthew 7 and 8 make that pretty clear

I disagree with the above statement and would put forth that Jesus was setting forth the will of God for all men.

Men are deemed unworthy of the kingdom of God by reason of not receiving the messengers or the message they speak. Matthew 10:13-14. The Greek word for "receive" comes from the root "to think" (dokeo). The implication is clear; if after hearing the message and thinking about it, the messenger and message are rejected - then one is not worthy of the kingdom. Leave them alone - it will be more tolerable for Sodom than for them in the day of judgment.

This is the judgment- not that it is "impossible"
to walk in or believe the light, rather that the light has come but men loved darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil. The judgment is placed squarely upon their choice of the darkness over the light.

He that believes (active verb) is not condemned. He that believes not (active verb again) stands condemned already, because he has not believed."

This is the way the Holy Spirit chose to express the reasons why some are condemned and others are not. Why do we make so many attempts to add to it? We should be careful not to try to alter the way the Holy Spirit has chosen to reveal the truth. The Holy Spirit has clearly chosen to say hearing comes first, then faith. Let's be careful not to imply that only a believer can hear! Paul said, "By faith we have gained access into this grace..." He did not say by grace we have gained access into this faith. Believe is not a passive thing - it is always put forth in the active voice. One word is always put forth as a passive - "doubt." Look this up and you will see.

Even in Romans 10, Paul makes it clear what the problem with Israel was. "Lord who has believed our report?"

The reason Israel was judged was for not mixing what they heard with faith.

makrothumia


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Alan and Dina Martin

 2010/2/4 15:50Profile
whyme
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Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Markrothumia said:

This is the judgment- not that it is "impossible"
to walk in or believe the light, rather that the light has come but men loved darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil. The judgment is placed squarely upon their choice of the darkness over the light.


I think you are mixing two things. The "light" referred to in the passage you quoted from John is Jesus not what you say which is essentially that doing the law with faith saves or damns for those who don't. Second, Jesus does say that performing His standards is impossible with men but possible with God. I think that was my point.

 2010/2/4 16:19Profile
Giggles
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Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


 Re:

Quote:
by whyme

Like all sermons, the message is intended for those who hear, the sermon is useful, however, only for those who understand. The sermon describes the nature and way of kingdom living so ultimately, only those who have been transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light can understand it, desire it, much less live it. The teaching sets forth impossible standards (apart from Christ) for the Christian believer not ethical morays for the world. Matthew 7 and 8 make that pretty clear.



Good post whyme.


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Paul

 2010/2/4 16:21Profile









 Re: Who was Jesus addressing in Mathew 5?

makrothumia said

Quote:
Believe is not a passive thing - it is always put forth in the active voice. One word is always put forth as a passive - "doubt."

Again thanks. This brings to mind Heb 10:38, 39.

I guess we are born into unbelief, so it comes naturally to us. That's why active faith causes us to [i]labour[/i] to enter His rest.

 2010/2/4 19:08
Lysa
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re: Praising the Lord!


Contributors,

I would just like to take a moment and praise the Lord with a grateful heart! I haven't read "every single answer" but I've read enough and everyone has made a deposit of wonderful insights in the Word! I'm going to read them all soon.

This is a thread of not seeking to win but of all seeking the truth! Thank you Jesus!

God bless you all!!


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Lisa

 2010/2/4 21:22Profile





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