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ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4537


 Re:

Hi rainydaygirl...

I have thought about this too. I have known some very sincere believers who claimed that "God showed them" something...and then some other very sincere believer will claim the same thing...but with a completely opposite view.

I suspect that there are some things that we don't have to agree with. I don't know that all believers will ever agree on every single issue while we are still confined to see "[i]through a glass, darkly[/i]" (I Corinthians 13:12). After all, the New Testament already demonstrates that there were variances of opinion in the early Church in regard to "doctrine." Perhaps the answer is that we shouldn't be so focused on all of the intricate, non-essential and peculiar matters that are difficult to agree upon. Then again, there are so many "non-essential" matters that many people would argue are "essential!"

I remember seeing an argument between a group of believers who were arguing one of those common arguments about whether or not a person could lose their salvation. One fairly new believer just walked away. Someone asked him where he was going and he replied, "[i]I just want to know Jesus[/i]." I think that is a great mindset.


_________________
Christopher

 2010/1/26 13:33Profile
harris
Member



Joined: 2004/1/28
Posts: 14
washington dc/dod

 Re:

"God is a spirit--and we must worship him in spirit and truth"

"Our weapons are not but spiritual--yet pulling down strong holds--in high principalities "


Look heavenly for answers and not earthly.

The Christ Child and the lamb of God be with--he who take away the sins of the world.


in Christ's service,

Gerald Harris

 2010/1/26 14:35Profile
rainydaygirl
Member



Joined: 2008/10/27
Posts: 742


 Re:

Hi Chris
Thank you for your reply. Yes I think as long as we in the body care more for our opinions and "being right" then we do for the things of His kingdom there will always be "non-essential" matters that many will tell you are "essential". At the end of the day I think the enemy finds our use of time spent in discussions/arguing these "essential" matters to be a very useful tool...

I have been wondering a great deal just lately what it would look like if we the body lived "The Life" instead of arguing/discussing it what that would actually look like? Probably a lot more like it did when the first followers came together, loving and caring for each other daily from house to house with out regard to self with Jesus as the head. That must have been something to see and no doubt would have drawn many to ask why are you who call yourself followers of Jesus so different.

I like what Paul said, "For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:2



love in Him
rdg

 2010/1/26 14:41Profile
JesusIsMyLrd
Member



Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 119
Iowa, USA

 Re:

Quote:
I have been wondering a great deal just lately what it would look like if we the body lived "The Life" instead of arguing/discussing it what that would actually look like? Probably a lot more like it did when the first followers came together, loving and caring for each other daily from house to house with out regard to self with Jesus as the head. That must have been something to see and no doubt would have drawn many to ask why are you who call yourself followers of Jesus so different.



Amen to that... and if we started walking out our theology, i think we'd find out pretty quick that we're much more similar than we think ;)

Praise God for the encouragement we can get from His church... He's so very good to us!

-nate


_________________
Nathan

 2010/1/26 14:57Profile









 Re: US Military Weapons Inscribed With Secret 'Jesus' Bible Codes

Quote:
If the aggressor's first actions will be lethal to the innocent then it would be necessary to prevent their first actions in order to defend the innocent.

Where does the Bible say this?
Quote:
churches' doctrine of Just War

came from the Roman Catholic Church, and for political purposes, was adopted by certain non-Roman Catholics. This has nothing to do with furthering the kingdom of God, though; nor, of behaving like the early Christians.
Quote:
is consistent with preemptive strike. This same principle can be applied in individual self-defense scenarios or in the defense of another individual.

And this pleases God?
Quote:
Modern technology greatly changes the nature of combat. In the past it could have made sense to stand and wait for your enemy to run at you with spears and swords. Today it is different because of high-speed, long-range transportation and weapons. It doesn't make sense to wait until the nuclear missile is close enough to use Aikido.

Sorry. I just don't buy this argument. But that's okay with me.
Quote:
I said: Frankly, what do we expect? If they were Christians, they wouldn't be armed conspirators against another Christian population.

Isn't that the whole point?

You replied: I couldn't tell what you meant here.

I mean, that people who don't have the peace of God in their hearts, who think that their religious aims can be furthered by physical violence (carnal thinking), cannot be expected to live peaceably with others who desire peace because they [i]do[/i] have the peace of God in their hearts. I would not expect Christians to make war against Christians, and so, to make war against non-Christians makes even less sense.

Look at Paul the apostle, killing Christians. He really believed he was justified in so doing, until the Lord stepped in. Now, after that, [u]un[/u]believing Jews were trying to kill him, and he was even left for dead once, but his response was [u]not[/u] to try and rustle up a band of Christians to help him hunt down and kill the heathen. Rather, he carried on evangelising them.

So.... what had changed in Paul?

Why did he now no longer think it was appropriate to kill those who didn't agree with his (new) religion?

Was it because the Lord had told him he would suffer for His sake? Was it because he couldn't get any other Christians to join him in stamping out the unbelieving Jews (as once he had tried to stamp out believing Christians)? Or was it because Jesus clearly stated that His kingdom is not of this world else His servants would fight for Him, and now, Paul was serving the interests of [i]that[/i] kingdom?

I think what I'm trying to say is, that Paul thought he was justified in killing people, until his conversion, and after his conversion he didn't think he was justified in so doing. I ask again: what had changed?

Secondarily, do we demonstrate that we have [i]not[/i] 'changed', when we justify killing unbelievers?

 2010/1/26 18:19









 Re: US Military Weapons Inscribed With Secret 'Jesus' Bible Codes


Hi Chris,

The word 'doctrine' appears 49 times in the New Testament. One of the most notable times is 1 Timothy 6:3.

I believe it is dangerous to believe that sound doctrine is variable. It may appear to be variable, but it would be incorrect to imply that God Himself is changing His stance, or, that God Himself has more than one stance on the same issue. The Bible doesn't demonstrate that He does, although He may be seen to deal with similar situations, differently. For Christians, there is unity in the Spirit. This doesn't mean that the Spirit overlooks all our differences, but rather, that in the Spirit, we ourselves abandon our differences, that we may be one in Christ.

I believe if you read scripture long enough, you will see a pattern emerging through all His dealings with men, which demonstrate conclusively that God Himself doesn't change His attitude to anything, although He may occasionally delay or renege on carrying out a threat, which could be defined as a 'change of mind'. He is able to do this, because He too, is capable of repentance, without in any way besmirching His own character.

 2010/1/26 18:29









 Re: US Military Weapons Inscribed With Secret 'Jesus' Bible Codes

Hi Chris,

This is a reply to your post to me.

Quote:
I was actually using Paul's own testimony before Festus in regard to this matter

My point is, that when Paul said he hadn't broken any of the laws, and was, therefore, not worthy of being convicted of their accusations, the fact is, he was not practising the Judaism handed down to him by his father, was he? He was a New Covenant believer, and they weren't, and he didn't 'appeal to Caesar' for any other reason than the opportunity to preach to him, because he knew that was in God's revealed plan for his life.

He was not appealing to a civil authority as an example of how a Christian should expect the state to give them support. He appealed to Caesar, because he was born a Roman citizen, and it was his civil right to seek justice under Roman law. However he may have hoped for physical justice, the fact is, he wasn't going to worship Caesar as god, as Roman citizens were supposed to do; he didn't even expect to 'get off' with being a Christian. In fact, he [i][b]didn't[/i][/b] expect [u]real[/u] justice from the Roman system, even though he was entitled to not be put to death for breaking Jewish laws (because he hadn't broken Jewish laws). However, he had, in fact, broken Roman law, by having any other god than Caesar.... and he knew it.

 2010/1/26 18:48









 Re: US Military Weapons Inscribed With Secret 'Jesus' Bible Codes


Hi Chris,

More thoughts.

You several times mention that the word of God does not explicitly state a rule (my paraphrase). That's why we need the Holy Spirit. Because - to be slightly lighthearted for a moment - one man's fish is another man's poison, but God knows exactly what He is asking each believer to do, and only those who obey Him can be called 'sons of God'. Romans 8:14. This puts it to bed for me, as I have to answer only for my own responses to His claim over my life through His commands, calls, leading and prompting. 1 John 5:1, 2, 3, 4.

 2010/1/26 18:59
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4537


 Re:

Hi Alive-to-God...

Quote:

The word 'doctrine' appears 49 times in the New Testament. One of the most notable times is 1 Timothy 6:3.

I believe it is dangerous to believe that sound doctrine is variable. It may appear to be variable, but it would be incorrect to imply that God Himself is changing His stance, or, that God Himself has more than one stance on the same issue. The Bible doesn't demonstrate that He does, although He may be seen to deal with similar situations, differently. For Christians, there is unity in the Spirit. This doesn't mean that the Spirit overlooks all our differences, but rather, that in the Spirit, we ourselves abandon our differences, that we may be one in Christ.


I am not saying that we shouldn't hold to that doctrine that is obvious and transparent from the Scriptures. However, I am talking about those "doctrines" that are actually just a set of "persuasions" about non-essential issues. Remember, no matter how "pure" you think that all of your views may be, there is a church or teacher somewhere who will disagree with you (and more than enough to claim that those doctrinal views are "false").

For instance, while we may lean toward a "pre-trib" or "post-trib" view, is it proper to make a "doctrine" out of those views? Sadly, these are the types of divisions that, although well-meaning, often divide the Body of Christ. One side thinks that the other is not "spiritual" enough or "mature" enough or "insightful" enough to see the "truth" -- and they often point their rhetoric at the other accordingly. Although God and truth do not change...a believer's personal viewpoint and perspective about such things often do. I have long thought that we need to be careful what we treat and express as "undeniable truths." There are definitely some undeniable truths in the Word...but much of what is argued about amongst believers is not.

Quote:

My point is, that when Paul said he hadn't broken any of the laws, and was, therefore, not worthy of being convicted of their accusations, the fact is, he was not practising the Judaism handed down to him by his father, was he? He was a New Covenant believer, and they weren't, and he didn't 'appeal to Caesar' for any other reason than the opportunity to preach to him, because he knew that was in God's revealed plan for his life.

He was not appealing to a civil authority as an example of how a Christian should expect the state to give them support. He appealed to Caesar, because he was born a Roman citizen, and it was his civil right to seek justice under Roman law. However he may have hoped for physical justice, the fact is, he wasn't going to worship Caesar as god, as Roman citizens were supposed to do; he didn't even expect to 'get off' with being a Christian.


That is precisely my point. Paul said that he did NOT do anything unlawful (against the law of the Jews...of the Temple...or against Rome)...and if he had...he wouldn't have defended himself. This was a "secular" defense (so to speak...if there is such a thing) that helped save him earlier from a physical beating.

As for how much Paul "knew" about the rationale for his use of an appeal in the Roman legal system, an angel later appeared to Paul on the boat to encourage him and said, "[i]Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee[/i]" (Acts 27:24). The specificities of Paul's knowledge might have been somewhat limited before that angelic visit.
Quote:

You several times mention that the word of God does not explicitly state a rule (my paraphrase). That's why we need the Holy Spirit. Because - to be slightly lighthearted for a moment - one man's fish is another man's poison, but God knows exactly what He is asking each believer to do, and only those who obey Him can be called 'sons of God'. Romans 8:14. This puts it to bed for me, as I have to answer only for my own responses to His claim over my life through His commands, calls, leading and prompting. 1 John 5:1, 2, 3, 4.


I agree that we must have the Holy Spirit to lead us. The problem with this is that your inclination of what "truth" the Holy Spirit is leading you to might differ from the "truth" that others feel that the Holy Spirit is leading them to. Here on SermonIndex, we have had quite a few people (and many would-be prophets) who claim that "God showed them" or "God told them" something in regard to a doctrine. The debates often get heated when one group or individual claims to have been "led" toward one notion of "truth" and the other group or individual claims to have been "led" toward another.

That is what I meant about the essential versus non-essential. I have seen believers who claimed that their particular notions about Calvinism (*both pro and con) were "essential" to a believer. The conversation becomes heated when one side spreads their views with authority or voices them as "absolutes." I just can't help but wonder if these are the very types of divisions that we are supposed to avoid.


_________________
Christopher

 2010/1/26 19:18Profile
rainydaygirl
Member



Joined: 2008/10/27
Posts: 742


 Re:

Quote:
That is what I meant about the essential versus non-essential. I have seen believers who claimed that their particular notions about Calvinism (*both pro and con) were "essential" to a believer. The conversation becomes heated when one side spreads their views with authority or voices them as "absolutes." I just can't help but wonder if these are the very types of divisions that we are supposed to avoid.


_____________________________________________________

I really think these are exactly the kinds of divisions and endless debates that we are supposed to avoid.

love in Him
rdg

 2010/1/26 23:34Profile





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