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 Re:



Hi Jdl,

Always, always, always, the standard by which you judge a thing, is the word of God.

Does God's word (in the Bible), say that He loves people? Yes it does. [i]For God [u]so[/u] loved people, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosover believes in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that people, through Him, might be saved.[/i]


I think the first step is to believe that God is The lover of souls. And then to accept that you must be included amongst them. Because, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us (the ungodly). All that remains, is for us to accept His offer of reconciliation to Himself, and enter into fellowship with Him, through the blood of Christ (ie, His grace towards us), by faith (His faith in action). 2 Cor 5.

Quote:
So if someone was picked randomly from the street, would you be able to say "God loves that person"?

Yes.

The question is not whether God loves people or not, but whether each individual who hears the gospel, will make an appropriate response to so great salvation. I think it can be a snare to keep looking at yourself, for something to commend you to God. Instead, God commends His love to us; such is His love.

Christ's love was both totally subjective and totally objective. I don't think the human response to that love can be subjective and objective simultaneously, but it can start somewhere, (where you are), and develop into a wholehearted response which pleases God because of its gratitude for His work on the cross, and its lifelong abandonment to His purposes.

Again I'm reminded of Oswald Chambers (Dec 18th)

[i]...We will be loyal to work, to service, to anything, but do not ask us to be loyal to Jesus Christ. Many Christians are intensely impatient of talking about loyalty to Jesus. Our Lord is dethroned more emphatically by Christian workers than by the world. God is made a machine for blessing men, and Jesus Christ is made a Worker among workers.

The idea is not that we do work for God, but that we are so loyal to Him that He can do His work through us - "I reckon on you for extreme service, with no complaining on your part and no explanation on Mine." God wants to use us as He used His own Son.[/i]


Beware of thinking that you have to 'get' something out of being a Christian. What we 'get' is eternal life, if we obey the Father's will. Beware also, of thinking is God is like someone you know very well. He is not. He is totally unique, and everything about Him shows us a quality of life which overwhelms our human knowledge of fatherhood or weak humanity.


CH Spurgeon: [i]The sinner must come to Jesus, not to works, ordinances, or doctrines, but to a personal Redeemer, who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree. The bleeding, dying, rising Saviour, is the only star of hope to a sinner. Oh for grace to come now and drink, ere the sun sets upon the year’s last day!

No waiting or preparation is so much as hinted at. Drinking represents a reception for which no fitness is required. A fool, a thief, a harlot can drink; and so sinfulness of character is no bar to the invitation to believe in Jesus. We want no golden cup, no bejewelled chalice, in which to convey the water to the thirsty; the mouth of poverty is welcome to stoop down and quaff the flowing flood. Blistered, leprous, filthy lips may touch the stream of divine love; they cannot pollute it, but shall themselves be purified. Jesus is the fount of hope. Dear reader, hear the dear Redeemer’s loving voice as he cries to each of us,

“IF ANY MAN THIRST,

LET HIM

COME UNTO ME

AND DRINK.”[/i]


(John 7:37) (Morning and Evening, Dec 31st)






 2009/12/2 17:05
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: Anger / Hatred of God

Quote:
IWantAnguish wrote:

If all men are truly depraved and wicked, all men [b]equally[/b] deserve hell and unable to turn to Him unless He grants them the grace and mercy to turn and repent towards Him... so why does He become angry at men for naturally being what they are... depraved / sinful wicked?


Furthermore, If all men are truly depraved and wicked [b]equally[/b] and if God grants only some grace and mercy to turn and repent towards Him; wouldn't God be partial in His granting?

What is His criteria for choosing the equally wicked men over the others with out being arbitrary?

 2009/12/2 17:11Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Anger / Hatred of God

It is unfortunate that I have yet to recognize anyone who has begun to properly distinguish how it is that God's Wrath is not to be confused with our notions of man's wrath (which "does not work the righteousness of God," James 1:20).

I ask a simple question: if God is angry with and hates the unrighteous man, does that mean God is malicious?

Answer: Ephesians 4:31. That is, let all abhorrence, and wrath, and anger, and dissatisfaction, and accusations be grounded in and begotten of the ministry of reconciliation, and let them not be mixed with ill-will. If you can apprehend this spiritual principle, you will have an inkling of the beauty of God's righteous Wrath.

Moreover, anyone who thinks that God ONLY loves people today because it is the NEW Testament dispensation need to familiarize themselves with the rest of John 3.

John 3:14-17
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Immediately followed by verse 18,
He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not [b]is condemned [u]already[/u][/b], because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And, again, verse 36,
He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but [b]the wrath of God [u]abides[/u] on him[/b].

The difficulty with rightly handling the seeming antagonism between divine Love and Wrath begins with the realization that God is declared to be Love (1 John 4:8); and nowhere in Scripture revelation is God equally declared to be Wrath. This priority is evident enough in James 2:13b, "mercy rejoices over judgment." In the same manner that we might understand the Trinity as One Substance: so we may also consider Wrath to be of One Substance with Love. Love and Wrath are not the same, but they are unified inseparably and magnify each other in perfect complement. And to continue in Trinitarian language: Love is the Origin (or Pure Substance) from which Grace proceeds forth. And, where is Wrath in this scheme? It is derived from Grace. I like the way R. A. Finlayson explained this phenomena, when he said, "Hell is an encounter with the character and will of God. God's nature is holy, and His character is unsullied righteousness. For the unholy to mix with holiness is Hell." That is to say, for the creature that is spiritually corrupt to receive the pure Grace of God is as Isaiah 33:14, "The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness has surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?" For the Presence of God is unapproachable Light and in Him there can abide neither darkness nor shadow of turning. Even as another has already referenced, "For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you." Psalm 5:4.

From this, you may have noticed, I literally define divine Wrath as God's pure, good, and life-abounding Grace shed upon the obstinate and rebellious soul. To reiterate, it is not Love, properly in itself, which defines Wrath but rather it is the object which Love is set upon — this is how God can Love and Hate the same object at the same instance. For it is the very power of the holiness of Love that destroys the ungodly and gives fury to the tempests of hell-fire. From here, we may begin to properly consider the insurmountable contradiction of how a Holy God could ever dwell in peace with the condemned sons of men; for the very Grace of God is Hell to the wicked. Therefore let all men worship the God of all Grace who has made atonement for our sins according to the Scriptures: the Gospel of His Beloved Son.


_________________
Jordan

 2009/12/2 19:03Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Anger / Hatred of God

Now, to briefly address Reformed theology regarding sovereign predestination and God's Wrath. I am assuming by 'reformed theologians' you are referring to Reformed Calvinism; since that is a common title and Arminianism is often disregarded as being Reformed theology (although it is). So to help in answering your dilemma, Anguish, it is my conviction that it is not possible for 'reformed theologians' to resolve this issue. For the very scheme of Calvinian predestination (in all its varieties) is to blame for your frustration. Edwardian Calvinists have a somewhat better position because they ascribe to God, what is so-called, "two wills." Nonetheless, while this doctrine may benefit some relief from the tension, it will not satisfy, leaving much to be desired. And, in my opinion, it is little more than an [i]ad hoc[/i] argument.

Simply put, if all men do not possess such a thing as limited free will (a power of will graciously given, empowered, and assisted by God) then there can be no such thing as a harmonious complement between divine Love and Wrath — inevitably the relationship between divine Love and Wrath with resemble, if not conform to, the principles of yin-yang. You will be familiar with this concept as "double predestination." It is fortunate however, that the majority of Reformed theologians (especially the Puritans) have always embraced free will as the basis of moral responsibility and the grounds for God's justice. The problems arise when we attempt to fit this Scripture revelation to the framework of double predestination. Charles Spurgeon, in a sermon titled, [i]A Defense of Calvinism[/i], made the following statement,

Quote:
[size=11]The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. For instance, I read in one Book of the Bible, "The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free-will. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring."[/size]


Ultimately, we must all agree with Spurgeon in that we shall never be able to fully perceive the glory of God's work when He formed the inward parts of the soul. However, this admission does not settle the issues inherent to Reformed Calvinism. Namely, the confusion as to whether or not God loves all men. Therefore, if double predestination be true then the answer is an incontestable "No." God must only freely and un-meritoriously love the few; and, with a free and equally gracious (unmerited) Wrath, hate the many. You will notice there is no natural grounds for qualifying God's justice. As Logic brought to our attention whether God be partial, the Reformed reply is "it is a mystery" as to why God sovereignly chooses, or elects, one over another. Although the very essence of partiality may be summed in there being nothing in an object to move one to prefer it over another of equal circumstance. That is, the determination of election, if it truly has nothing to do with a foreseen act upon faith, is entirely based upon something within God (that mysterious factor) that is moving Him to elect one unto Salvation and another unto Damnation without any logically prior consideration to these creatures having done good or evil. That is, Election is not based upon God's Justice (however, Scripture tells us a different story; Matthew 25) but upon something indistinct. At least, this is the explanation I have received by those who abuse the arguments of Romans 9, as though it were the pinnacle of double predestination.

Even if we were to admit that God has "two wills," we shall inevitably fall upon the same difficulties. Moreover, it seems to me the concept of "two wills" is a logical consequence of Jonathan Edwards' erroneous view on the freedom of the will. Wherein, rather than attributing the determinacy of man's will to act upon any spiritual law of man's nature, it is swallowed up and consumed into God's absolute sovereignty — the second will. Practically, this doctrine will create a reasonable distinction between Predestination and Moral Responsibility but by definition, just as a bubble pops, it does not deliver us from Antinomianism or fatalism. It is a clever way of saying "God loves everybody," yet not all of them with an effectual love. Common grace, or common love, can only come from a Common, or non-saving, God: for God is Love. Common grace is equivalent to declaring God to be non-God to the eternal reprobate. Probably the most detestable result of this teaching is evident when we consider that the world is ultimately condemned for rejecting the Savior; however, if Jesus did not die for the elect reprobate then He is not their Savior; and therefore, sinners cannot ultimately be condemned for rejecting any Savior they never had, if He never died for them.

A great deal more could be brought to bear but, as I am sure you have already come to realize, Anguish, they all deal with God's relationship to humanity — God's Love and Wrath revealed from heaven. Otherwise, you would not be frustrated with your attempts to work through the goodness of God in the condemnation of sinners and the justifying of the wicked by faith.


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Jordan

 2009/12/2 19:53Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Psalms 14:2-3 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Who does the seeking? It is God who seeks any that believe, first, then we who believe do then seek His Face. Then and only then.

Even David; Psalms 27:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

Who is doing the seeking and saying seek my face.

If God says seek my face, will it be done or is God depending on man.

Again;

Psalms 53:2-3 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Who is doing the bringing back?

Psalms 53:6 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! When God bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

Psalms 63:1 A Psalm of David, when he was in the wilderness of Judah. O God, thou art my God; early will I seek thee: my soul thirsteth for thee, my flesh longeth for thee in a dry and thirsty land, where no water is;

Why is David seeking God? He who taught David to Seek the face of God, God is the reason David was after the heart of God.

Not only with love and understanding from God do we seek His face, but God is perfect in all His dealings with man, even to those that need to be shamed to lift up their hands unto Him.

Psalms 83:16 Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O LORD.

Who gives the understanding? David seeks God out of His Holy Place naming Him as the Author of all David is by God's doing.

Psalms 119:169-176 TAU. Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word. Let my supplication come before thee: deliver me according to thy word. My lips shall utter praise, when thou hast taught me thy statutes. My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness. Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts. I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight. Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me. I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

God's anger and destruction are even for His Own Children.

Proverbs 1:27-29 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Proverbs 1:33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

Proverbs 8:19-22 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and My revenue than choice silver. I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures. The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

For what cause Salvation?

And on and on, this just a bit of the Old Testament.

Who has birthed us unto a New Life in Christ by His Own Incorruptable Seed, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2009/12/2 21:19Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

boG wrote:

Quote:



[size=11]The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. For instance, I read in one Book of the Bible, "The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free-will. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring."[/size]




Pure gold.


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Christiaan

 2009/12/2 23:04Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring."



Good words here. Two lines of sight reveal a depth not percievable through just one.

Most cameras show perfect pictures of reality captured from the vantage of a single lens. However, some special cameras can take two pictures of the same view from different angles to match the stereo vision of human eyesight. Both the left and the right photos in a stereo image are absolutely faithful to the exact same reality but still when placed on top of one another they don't line up. However, when placed side by side on equal distance from the eye, a single stereo image emerges...not on the printed paper, but in the mind, revealing more of reality as it is with a far reaching depth not perceivable or available with only one vantage point.

While that analogy is a pale comparisons to the depth of biblical truth, perhaps it can demonstrate it is not necessary to become binary over sovereignty and free-will; two realities that are clearly irrefutably upheld in scripture.

Blessings,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2009/12/3 1:44Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3420
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: does God love you?

Quote:
Jdl wrote:
So if someone was picked randomly from the street, would you be able to say "God loves that person"?


My friends and I have a jail ministry and I tell these girls that God loves them without hestitation, without thinking, "but what if He doesnt'?" I know He does.

This is a simple verse, we've heard it for years but it IS TRUE:

For God so loved the world that HE sent His only begetton son that WHOSOEVER would believe on Him might be saved. Period.

Read carefully, [b]before[/b] we believed God AND [b]before[/b] He sent Christ in human form to us... so loved us.

God so loves you Jdl, period.


_________________
Lisa

 2009/12/3 10:37Profile
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Quote:

Miccah wrote:
boG wrote:
Quote:



[size=11]The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. For instance, I read in one Book of the Bible, "The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free-will. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring."[/size]




Pure gold.


Yes. Wow. I agree. God's truth, not man's.

 2009/12/3 11:08Profile









 Re:


There is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof is the ways of death.

We have conflicting views concerning God and His ability to hate and/or to be angry. And we know that that the God of the Old Testament is the same as the one in the New Testament.

"I am God and I change not". Malachi 3:6

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Acts 9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all England and Ireland and Scotland, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

 2009/12/3 15:42





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