SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Access over 100,000+ Sermons from Ancient to Modern
See Opportunities to Serve with SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Unconverted People allowed in Church?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 Next Page )
PosterThread









 Re:

Quote:
So... the question is... if a person is obviously a NOMINAL Christian (whatever that means) and they don't care about conforming their lives according to the will of God, should we allow them comfortable entry and fellowship within the 'church?'

No!

After reading into this further regarding a "nominal" Christian. I would have to say Yes. A Nominal person is someone who is following the LORD in all the capacity that he knows. For example, I would be considered nominal. In regards to the fruit of the Spirit, after judging myself, I would have to say that I have zero fruit. However, I have had people say to me that they see the love of God in me, a generous kind person. Though I don't see it, others do. And it's their word that will matter over mine.

Quote:
If a person obviously is not bearing fruit in their lives, and is obviously lacking the fruit of the Spirit listed in the latter part of Galatians... Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control... should we continue to include them in the fellowship and allow themselves to blend in with the congregation, without confronting them with texts such as examining themselves, and bringing up the apparent sinful nature in their lives... since anybody cannot be walking in the flesh and walking in the Spirit simultaneously.

Unless God has called you to be a Fruit Inspector.

You have three different thoughts in this paragraph.

1) The lack of Fruit
2) Fulfilling the lust of the flesh
3) Walking after the Spirit

I am going to attempt to answer the 1st one and the others I will either leave them up to others or I'll come back in later to finish it.

The fruit of the Spirit is something that will not show up over night. We see one of the fruit of the Spirit is patience.

Romans 5:3-4 we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

If we pray for patience we are really praying for tribulation to come our way. We need certain elements to come into our lives in order for us to bear fruit. I want you to understand something right off the hop and that is this is an exhaustive subject. I would like to continue on this subject but I would like to know, do you WANT to know what I am writing about? or do you KNOW what I am writing about or do you CARE if I continue writing at all?

Thanks muchly


 2009/11/22 21:08









 Re:

Quote:
I will partake in no further discussion on this. So Lisa out!

Lysa I wouldn't take that stand, it's merely a discussion. I don't think Anguish is laying down the law or anything, I think he is wanting to balance this whole thing out. I am hoping that he is looking to learn about what we should do with wayward believers that have no interest in pursuing the kingdom of God.

 2009/11/22 21:12
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2014
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: Unconverted People allowed in Church?

Thought I would throw a little historical context into this discussion. The early Methodists (ca. 1800) had separate "services" if you will for both the lost and those who were born again and part of the local body. The exclusive meetings were called classes and were times of personal accountability before the group. The leader may go around the room inquiring in turn about each Christian's walk with the Lord that week, their battles with temptation, their time in prayer and the word, etc. It was a time of very personal ministry of the body to the body. There were other services where anyone was welcome.

In my opinion, if we boil it all down to a once a week or twice a week "service" and then ask whether the lost should or should not come, we have missed the point of the body of Christ entirely.

The body of Christ should be fulfilling both the growth and personal accountability of one another in private so to speak as well as reaching the world for Christ and bringing precious people into the kingdom. What that structure looks like may be as varied as the body in any location and the circumstances that body finds itself in.

Travis.


_________________
Travis

 2009/11/22 21:39Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Thought I would throw a little historical context into this discussion. The early Methodists (ca. 1800) had separate "services" if you will for both the lost and those who were born again and part of the local body. The exclusive meetings were called classes and were times of personal accountability before the group. The leader may go around the room inquiring in turn about each Christian's walk with the Lord that week, their battles with temptation, their time in prayer and the word, etc. It was a time of very personal ministry of the body to the body. There were other services where anyone was welcome.

I like that structure, wow. That is non existent in today's Church realm, unless your a heavy tithe payer.

 2009/11/22 21:49
IWantAnguish
Member



Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343


 Re:

Hmm... I've had similar ideas about this class meeting type service... of getting serious believers together and digging very deep into the Word of God and applying it without compromise.

And yes Deepthinker, I would like further discussion.

My ultimate question is this... is the 'Church in America' salvageable in the state that it is in, or must there be a complete reformation from the bottom up in every way things are done...

All the way from those allowed into fellowship, how offering should be done, what constitutes true salvation / being born again, responsibility of elders, criterion for pastors, church discipline, missions, living the gospel, pronouncing the gospel etc.


_________________
Sba

 2009/11/23 1:35Profile
IWantAnguish
Member



Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343


 Re:

Quote:
Yes, we should. Because . . . #1, according your strict standards, I would have been kicked out 10 – 15 years ago but I allowed the Lord to change me. People change. #2, If we remembered that by OUR judgments we will be judged, I believe we’d show much more mercy. #3, the Bible says that “love covers a multitude of sin.” I will partake in no further discussion on this. So Lisa out!



I am really not in this for an argument.

But I deem a simple response necessary for this reply...

1. I believe if you were kicked out for whatever reason, the Lord would have used that in an edifying way to bring you back to the church repentant and seeking forgiveness from the Lord.

2. Our judgments are much more lackadaisical than the Lords... This is a fact. I believe what you meant to say is that the Lord is much more gracious and forgiving, although His judgments are uncompromising.

3. The most hateful thing I could do to an individual living in open sin while he proclaimed Christ as his savior would be to let him live the way he wanted to, and hear from Christ's mouth on the final day of judgment, "Depart from me I never knew you."

I do not wish any ill will between us, and I would even beg of your forgiveness if I have insulted you in this discussion. Let us both seek to provoke one another unto godliness.

I will pray for you Lisa, and thank you for your time in all this mess I'm trying to organize.


_________________
Sba

 2009/11/23 1:45Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7515
Mississippi

 Re:

Quote:
how offering should be done



When ever I hear that churches will record a person's giving- the amounts, I have been mortified. This flies in face of Jesus' admonition to not let the right hand know what the left hand does.

I think I would run as fast as I could from a church that does this.

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2009/11/23 1:51Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2014
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

IWantAnquish wrote:

Quote:
My ultimate question is this... is the 'Church in America' salvageable in the state that it is in, or must there be a complete reformation from the bottom up in every way things are done...



I don't want to be too quick to disparage the body of Christ, however, I also need to be honest enough to recognize when things are not as they should be. I grew up in a very traditional American church structure. The governing body of the church was the board, elected by popular vote by the body. They primarily dealt with business matters and made sure the pastor did not get out of line. The pastor was chosen by popular election as well. It was a defective and unscriptural system. Still, God moved among us. I grew up knowing what the presence of God among us "felt" like, even though I understand He is spiritually discerned and not through the carnal emotions. However, we were locked in tradition that often made the word of none effect and limited what God could do among us and through us. Evangelism was definitely not a focus of the body. Maintaining our unique doctrines and traditions was. Although the sense of tradition did tend to preserve many good things as well, and I was born again, baptized in the Holy Spirit, and a great hunger for God was instilled in my heart.

I have since studied church government and leadership quite extensively and, although I have a lot to learn, I have come to know some things that have totally transformed my leadership paradigm.

I noticed that you said this:
Quote:
, responsibility of elders, criterion for pastors, church discipline,



The fact that you stated, "criterion for pastors", shows that you recognize that there are problems with the system, but are locked into modifying the existing structure to "fix" it. What if I said the whole structure must come down and a Biblical structure built from the ground up?

Ephesians 2:14-22 talks about God's design for the structure of His body. It says that the body of Christ is established on the foundation of the apostles and prophets having Christ as the chief corner stone. Ephesians 4:7-15 talks again of this body and the foundational leadership structure. Christ is the head, and He has given gifts to men. These gifts are enumerated in verse 11. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. These are grace gifts given to the body by Jesus Christ to establish and grow the body into the mature bride of Christ. Look at Romans 12:3-10. Paul says, "I am speaking out of the grace given me." He then goes on to talk about the grace given to all men in the form of unique gifts to the body and the necessity of all of those gifts.

If you will study carefully what took place in the early church recorded in the New Testament you will find, without exception, this pattern.

Apostles with prophets establish and coordinate new ministry. They are not the only ones who do this, but often this is the case.
Apostles always ordain Eldership/Bishopric (Look at Titus 1:5-7 and you will see that these offices are one and the same scripturally, and the terms are used interchangably by Paul). There was usually a plurality of eldership in each local body.
Either elders, or the body themselves by popular election chose deacons to oversee many various aspects of ministry within the body.
The five equipping gifts given to the body are not by mans choice, but by God's calling. Eph. 4:8; 1 Cor. 1, 2 Cor. 1, Col. 1, etc. Men can choose to aspire to the responsibility of eldership/bishopric. 1 Timothy 3:11. Eldership and deacons are offices. Five fold equipping gifts are NOT offices, but rather gifts to the body.

Interestingly enough, Paul NEVER writes a letter in which he mentions the pastor of a church. He always mentions bishops and elders. Pastor only appears once in the entirety of the New Testament, and that is in Eph. 4:11. The same greek word is translated shepherd several times and usually refers to Christ, but never to a single man with the sole responsibility of ministering to a local body of believers.

A pastor in the grace equipping gift sense can serve in the position of an elder in a local body. In fact, the nature of that grace gift makes one with the calling of pastor an ideal candidate for eldership in a body of believers.

I believe God intends for the church in a location (the local body) to have plurality of eldership, functioning deacons, and the five equipping gifts operating in the body to lead the body into maturity for the active work of ministry that body is called to do in that location.

Looks very different from the traditional pastor and deacon board structure we are accustomed to.

Travis.

Oh, as to finances... Paul talks very openly about the giving habits of the Phillipian church in Phil. 4. I am not opposed to the eldership of my body knowing how much I am giving. It would be very inappropriate indeed for that information to be shared openly among the body and people compared as I have heard happen in some bodies. I think this scripture is helping to make the point that your giving is unto God, and is not for show before men. That is, give without announcing what you are doing. You are giving to God, not trying to impress men.


_________________
Travis

 2009/11/23 17:17Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3451
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Is the church salvageable?

Quote:
IWantAnguish wrote:
My ultimate question is this... is the 'Church in America' salvageable in the state that it is in, or must there be a complete reformation from the bottom up in every way things are done...

All the way from those allowed into fellowship, how offering should be done, what constitutes true salvation / being born again, responsibility of elders, criterion for pastors, church discipline, missions, living the gospel, pronouncing the gospel etc.


Brother,

The end is near and the [b]C[/b]hurch does not lie in ruins, "little" c church does but not the Bride!

I know many argue with me on this but this is the road I try to take in all things....

[i]Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.[/i]
James 5.19-20

[i]But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers. And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins."[/i]
1 Peter 4.7-8


_________________
Lisa

 2009/11/23 18:34Profile









 Re:


Travis that was an excellent exposition of true Church office and order, I loved what you said about the Pastor.

Quote:
But the end of all things is at hand 1 Peter 4:7

Just as a side note, that was written 2000 years ago. If something was "At hand", then it was very near to happen.

 2009/11/23 20:31





©2002-2021 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy