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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Distinction Between Being "Filled" and "Baptized" in the Holy Ghost

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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Br. Robert wrote:

Quote:
To be free from the law is to keep the law of sin in a state of inutility.



I can only speak of my experience. I know that God works in all of us in ways different from one another. What I mean to say is that, God has pinpointed the next stumbling block in my life. Likewise, He works in others according to His loving wisdom, and it is always to reveal a precept, or ordinance, or statute of the Life that glorifies Him. One man's sin of covetousness, differs from another man's sin of adultery. These are the outward manifestations of the root cause of why we sin. It centers on the desires of our hearts. Because we are naked when we are born of the flesh, we learn the ways of the world. We are tempted by the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. These temptations come from Satan.

In our nature, we all have one thing in common. There is the precept of desire. Desire motivates us to strive for what we have learned to hope for. The world will teach us to strive after futile things. All of these things are the sum of how we have submitted to temptation. The existence of desire is not sinful. The path we choose to satisfy desire is sinful. It is sinful because we don't know God's will for us.

We begin as the seed of Satan. Satan works to define the parameters of the hope that is in us. It will always lead to death. It will always lead to bondage. We become slaves to the hopes that destroy us.

In Romans 1, Paul teaches that God also establishes His presences, His calling, in the lives of men. We are given enough light to know that God is. We are given enough light to convict us of our rebellion. We are given enough light that we understand that there is the Life. Our conscience speaks of a choice that all men must make. The choice is between righteousness and wickedness.

The way God keeps the law of sin in a state of inutility, revovles around the divine power of His promise. Look at the nature of what a promise means. A promise implies that actions will be taken where the reciever of the promise will come to realize or understand the benefits of that promise. The New Covenant promises that the word of God will supplant the word of Satan. The word of God will change the substance of what we hope for. Our desire will motivate us to strive for something always. It is the substance of the things we hope for that change our life. If God's word grows in our minds and our hearts, the evidence of God's work will lead us away from the hopes that we once had. His word seperates us from the hopes that have been previously nurtured in us by the lies of Satan.

The times where I read His word and meditate constantly on the things I don't understand, these are the times that are most fulfilling in my life. These times of fulfillment also reflect times in my life where I am less interested in worldly things. So I understand, that to keep sin in the state of inutility, is to not focus on sin or the law which condemns. But the more perfect way is to seek the treasures that are found in Christ. To take the yoke of Christ means that we submit to the pull of the reigns. The pull of the reigns teaches us about the way He loves creation. The pull of the reigns teaches us about the sorrows that exist in His creation. The pull of the reigns teaches us to dwell as pilgrims in our earthly bodies. The pull of the reigns teaches us about the darkness that we once held central to the reason for our existence. There is joy. The joy that we come to understand causes us to forget about the things we once held dear.

I am sure of one thing. He has given me all things which pretain to Christ. It is our corruption to hold onto or it is His grace to experience, that creates the choice each day. If we try to imagine where we are going, it is futile. If we listen for Him daily, we will not thirst as the world thirst. It is His goodness that causes me not to think of the temptations that surround me. It is His goodness that leads me to repentance. It is His mercy that pick me up when I stumble.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/10/25 18:23Profile
Jimm
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 Outward manifestations of the root cause

Jeff

Quote: One man's sin of covetousness differs from another man's sin of adultery. These are the outward manifestations of the root cause of why we sin. It centers on the desires of our hearts. Because we are naked when we are born of the flesh, we learn the ways of the world. We are tempted by the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. These temptations come from Satan.

You are addressing the real issue here Brother Jeff. Sins are symptoms of an illness that the patient cannot see for himself. The law serves as our insight into reality and out of darkness, it is a tool to illustrate a point, that point is that sin indeed is in all flesh (Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.)

In Christ

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2004/10/25 18:49Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Bro. Jeff,

That is beautiful. It is encouraging. I read the echoes of what the Spirit is also saying to me these many years.


Quote:
The word of God will change the substance of what we hope for. Our desire will motivate us to strive for something always.



When I read this I thought about how the world and the enemy wants our love. i thought about the Ephesian church that our Lord said they had left their first love- the love they had at first. Love is the supreme motivation and the steeringwheel of our desires. We desire what we love. Therefor we read- love not the world- neither the things of this world. That Greek word is agape. How could a person express agape love for the world? It begins when we befriend the world. It begins when we allow the world to seduce our appetites and recast our hope as you so well put it.

Could we with ink the ocean fill,
And were the skies of parchment made,
Were every stalk on earth a quill,
And every man a scribe by trade,
To write the love of God above
Would drain the ocean dry.
Nor could the scroll contain the whole,
Though stretched from sky to sky.
- - author unknown

Which leads me to how this pertains to this thread. The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5). Luke 7 teaches us of one who was forgiven little and loved little and one who was forgiven much and loved much. The key here is realizing that we were all sinners and that we ought to all love much, because any sin forgiven is much in light of the penalty. Which leads to the passage- "We love Him because He first loved us." Fear may do a work in gaining the attention of a sinner convinced of their sin in light of their destiny; but love must be our motivation day in and day out. And when that love is challenged and stolen away from the things of this world the fear of God must step in through the convincing power of the Holy spirit drawing us back to the love that we had at first once again.

Quote:
I am sure of one thing. He has given me all things which pretain to Christ. It is our corruption to hold onto or it is His grace to experience, that creates the choice each day. If we try to imagine where we are going, it is futile. If we listen for Him daily, we will not thirst as the world thirst. It is His goodness that causes me not to think of the temptations that surround me. It is His goodness that leads me to repentance. It is His mercy that pick me up when I stumble



Amen!

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/10/26 8:40Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brothers and Sisters,


"You are my portion, O Lord; I have said that I would keep Your words. I entreated Your favor with my whole heart; be merciful to me according to Your word. [b]I thought about my ways, and turned my feet to Your testimonies.[/b] I made haste, and did no delay to keep Your commandments. The cords of the wicked have bound me, but I have not forgotten Your law. At midnight I will rise to give thanks to You, because of Your righteous judgements." Psalm 119:57-62

May our hearts cry the same, You are my portion, O Lord. May our hearts turn from the bondages of the wicked. May our hearts desire His righteous judgements.


Amen!

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/10/26 12:30Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Robert

Quote:
There has to be something quite profound in the working of God by the addition of the law. I would love to be able to have the relationship with my children that my father and I now have- but that is impossible because I must train and discipline them. They are simply not in a place of maturity to be able to handle such a friendship yet, without being filled with all manor of contempt. The roles are such that the process of maturity is too fragile at this atage of their lives to befriend at a level that I would like- but in time it will be so. How does all this play out in our relationship with God as He chastens us and yet we are pressing to be His friend?


There is a contrast that we can see in the promise of the New Covenant;Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (Jer 31:31-32 KJV)This promise includes the phrase 'not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt'. This 'old' covenant' is set against the new covenant, clear statement that these two covenants cannot co-exist. This truth is expressed boldy by Paul in Galatians with startling energy; But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. (Gal 4:23-24 KJV)and Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. (Gal 4:30 KJV)There can be no question; these two covenant are mutually exclusive.

As individuals, people within the first covenant could enjoy Abrahamic relationship with God; justification by faith etc, but the glories of the New Covenant were not yet accessible on a personal nor corporate level. The 'we' of Galatians 3:24 is Paul and his race under the Old Covenant. Part of its purpose was as paidagogos; child-conductor. The KJV has translated 'paidagogos' as 'schoolmaster' but this is an error. Thayer describes the role of a paidagogus; a tutor, i.e. a guardian and guide of boys. Among the Greeks and the Romans the name was applied to trustworthy slaves who were charged with the duty of supervising the life and morals of boys belonging to the better class. The boys were not allowed so much as to step out of the house without them before arriving at the age of manhood. The paidagogus was in effect a boy's personal policman. He was not a 'teacher' and was not permitted to teach. His job was to get the boy to school. Paul sees the people of the Old Covenant as in this relationship with the Law. But goes on to say so that the law became our child-conductor--to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we, (Gal 3:24-25 YLT)There are very distinct eras of reference here.

In Galatians 4 Paul goes on to say that this state was a state of child-hood. This fits with the paedagogus who stuck like glue until the boy entered official manhood; at this point he instantly lost his child-conductor. The 'Jewish' child was an heir, but there is 'no difference' between a child-heir and a slave. Here is Paul's familiar refrain that we hear again in Romans; 'there is no difference'. Paul equates 'Jewish child-heirs' with Gentile 'slaves'. You can see how the obvious question of Romans would arise; What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Rom 3:1 KJV)That is another question for another place, but Paul's Galatians' statement makes it an inevitable question. And now I come to your specific question...

The fulness of time had not come. The heir had not arrived at the day of his majority. BUT when the fulness of time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law... and this is a vital link 'in order to redeem them that were under the law, that we migh receive sonship.' (Gal 4:4,5)I want to flag this clearly... they could not receive sonship while under the law, not even the best of them. Christ would have to come to redeem them from under the law IN ORDER THAT we might receive sonship. The switch of pronouns here is a vital element. He has been speaking about 'they'; those under the law and now he makes it plain that all such had to remain 'under the law' including 'we' (himself) until Christ was 'sent forth'.

The next verse is a suddent change of direction; and because ye are sons (Gal 4:6)He has switched from 'we' Jewish child-heirs' to the 'you' of Gentile slavery who are no longer slaves; you are sons. Sonship is not the result of maturity; it is a state. It was a publically acknowledged 'state'. I see strong links with the narratives of Christ's manifestation to Israel. The Spirit comes upon Him and the Father acknoledges His Son publically. It is significant that from this moment Jesus never again 'obeyed his mother'. He was a publically acknowledged 'son'. His attitude to the Law appeared to be erratic, but is makes sense if you understand that He was a son who had come in His inheritance and was no longer under the paidagogus of the law. From this moment He would be Spirit-led. This should not surprize us as those who are Spirit-led are sons of God. (Rom 8:14). This is the difference between the parameters of the Covenants. Moses, David, Isaiah never experiences this public acknowledgement of 'sonship' and remained 'under the law'. For them 'faith' in the sense in which Pauls uses it in Galatians 'had not come'.

The background to Galatians is that the Judaizers did not question the way the Galatians had begun their pilgrimage but insisted that progress/maturity depended on law-keeping and in particular circumcision. Paul will have none of it; not only does 'law keeping' not produce progress/maturity it actively obstructs it. The Gentile believers did not need to go through an Old Covenant in order to get to the New Covenant. The gift of the Spirit was public acknowledgment that they were sons, and sons are not under written laws. The question of 'chastening' is somewhat different although we need to remind ourselves that He does not chasten us in order to receive us; that would be mysticism. He chastens because we are sons. However, I don't think we can conclude that the writer to the Hebrews (Jews)is using the concept of 'sons' in quite the same sense as Paul does to the Gentiles in Galatia and later in Rome.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/10/26 15:02Profile
rookie
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Savannah TN

 Re:

Br Ron wrote:

Quote:
He was a publically acknowledged 'son'. His attitude to the Law appeared to be erratic, but is makes sense if you understand that He was a son who had come in His inheritance and was no longer under the paidagogus of the law.



Scripture does not teach this. Jesus obeyed the law perfectly. The notion of being erractic is not taught. However, Jesus did not have to obey the oral law of the Talmud. These laws represented the traditions of men. Jesus is the word of God. He cannot deny Himself.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/10/26 15:33Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
The background to Galatians is that the Judaizers did not question the way the Galatians had begun their pilgrimage but insisted that progress/maturity depended on law-keeping and in particular circumcision.



Then the Gnostics came along and taught that in order to attain one must be liberated from the flesh (body) or to get out of the flesh and into the Spirit in order to attain. I kow there were many other concepts, but this is the one that sticks out to me.

How then do we split the horns of these two things and come into the fulness of all that God intended to bring us unto perfection and the establishment of a the law (without either coming under the law or taking a dualistic approach to the physical body)? Can we say with any certainty that we must walk in the Spirit and reguard the body as a sin tainted enemy that lusts against the Spirit? And in so doing we can reach that place of Entire Sanctification by handling the issues of the body scripturally, such as laying aside every weight, exercising the senses, not making provision for the flesh to fulfill its lusts, etc. ? Or is there a different approach I am missing all together?

Thanks! God Bless,

-RObert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/10/26 16:02Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
The notion of being erractic is not taught.



I think I see what you both are saying and I agree with both. :-(
The Son of man was Lord also of the Sabbath. Sure He fulfilled the Law- which as the Messianics would say, "rightly interpret and live out." He lived it out as it was intended and not as men had interpreted it. He is the Law and the Judge. His interpretation stands in the life He lived. As He once said, "Which of you convinceth me of sin?" They could not- yet the principals of the Talmud and Oral Law were the precodified traditions that He disregarded and in so doing appeared to be transgressing the Law to some. He was not- He was rightly interpreting it and demonstrating it in Human Flesh. Should the traditions of these men have made the word of God into something God was bound to honor? Their traditions made it of none effect, the Lord demonstrated it as God intended it.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/10/26 16:09Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Br. Ron wrote:

Quote:
This promise includes the phrase 'not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt'. This 'old' covenant' is set against the new covenant, clear statement that these two covenants cannot co-exist.



I agree. They cannot coexist in terms of applying to one person's standing before God. One is either under the one or the other. Paul teaches:

"This only I want to learn from you; Did you receive the Spirit by [b]the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?[/b] Gal 3:2

Then Paul teaches:

"Therefore He who supplies the [b]Spirit[/b] to you and [b]works[/b] miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by [b]the hearing of faith?[/b] just as
[u][i][b]Abraham "believed God,[/b][/i][/u] and it was accounted to him for righteousness, [u][i][b]therefore know that only[/b][/i][/u] those who are of faith are [u][i][b]sons of Abraham.[/b][/i][/u]" Galatians 3:5

Faith comes by the work of Him who gives the Holy Spirit.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/10/26 18:26Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

From here we have the next stage in the working of God and it is that of Him taking up residence in man. This invariably will lead to some deep and searching questions that I have never really answered in my heart.

Circumcision of the heart must deal with the cutting away, as it were, of the inner influence of iniquity upon the heart of man. To have a circumcised heart is to die (separation) to (from) the stiffnecked disposition of the flesh that always wants to resist the Holy Ghost (Deuteronomy 10:16, 30:6, Acts 7:51). In this case I will revert to my former understanding of the flesh (sarx) and view it as the body of our members in bondage to the law of sin. The law of sin being a knee jerk rebellious reaction to anything God decrees no matter if it were pleasing to the flesh or not. Sabbath should never have been rebelled against by a people that are lazy by nature. The law of sin, passed down from Adam, as we would know as part of the Original Sin, uses the law of God as a means of rebellion. When the law came sin revived and I died- for sin was dead without the law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam even to those who did not sin in similitude to Adam's transgression. Why? Because sin was dormant in man, yet it was present, and because it was present the people died. Death was the evidence that it was there. The Pharisees and others such as the rich young ruler would not admit they were sinners, so Jesus would offer a commandment such as selling all or He would point at lust in the heart as evidence that sin was indeed still present in man's members no matter how well they had mastered an outward show of keeping the law. The only proof that sin is gone is the absence of rebellion and a desire to all that God commands no matter what that commandment may be.

Since the law brings sin to the surface in this body of sin God had to circumcise us of it through the cross until we could lay it aside at death and put on the house (tabernacle) which we long to be clothed upon with. How would He do it? We had to die to the law and the law of sin simultaneously. We are free from the law by baptism into Christ, who both died to sin and the law, that we might be loosed from both the slavery and headship of both the law and the law of sin. This leaves man in a perdicament. If the Spirit of God does not come at that moment antinomianism will prevail. This was, in my opinion, the root misunderstanding of what Paul was trying to teach that caused many of the stripes on his back. People simply could not get it. Paul did not say they were free from the law- end of story. He was saying that they were free from the law so long as they walk in the Spirit. And if they walk in the Spirit they will fulfill the law just as Christ. What a marvel! That God could cause a man to walk in love towards Him and man's neighbor while keeping sin in inutility by the power of the Holy Spirit. So much we could say right here.


Here is my first question- at what point is the person actually a citizen in the Kingdom of God whose name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life? Is it as soon as the process of working begins as the Spirit comes in to take up residence how ever small the evidence of His indwelling may be or is this an instantaneous work that yields such a change at regeneration that the person is immediately fit for the Kingdom of God?

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/10/27 8:27Profile





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