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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Distinction Between Being "Filled" and "Baptized" in the Holy Ghost

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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Br. Ron wrote:

Quote:
Isn't that a kind of Gnosticism? Pollution does not come from a lack of knowledge.



When a child is born of the flesh he has no knowledge. Yet he will follow his parent in simple faith. We are called to be as a child and to believe as a child. Yet, without knowledge of the truth that leads to salvation, the mind of the child will grow in knowledge of futile things.

"This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer [b]walk[/b] as the rest of the gentiles walk, [b]in the futility of their mind, [/b] having their [b]understanding darkened[/b], being [b]alienated[/b] from the life of God, because of the[b]ignorance[/b] that is in them, because of the [b]blindness [/b] of their heart; who being [u][i][b]past feeling[/b][/i][/u] have given [u][i][b]themselves[/b][/i][/u] over to [b]lewdness, to work all uncleaness with greediness.[/b] Ephesians 4:17-19

Here Paul teaches that these gentiles have been alienated from the life of God. Because they walk by the futility of their mind, their understanding was darkened. Because of ignorance and blindness of heart they are given over to corruption. This all takes place because they are fools.

I do agree with you Br. Ron in that it is not knowledge that saves men from hell. Jesus warned the Pharisees:

"You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me." John 5:39

Jesus teaches that knowledge means nothing. Only knowing Jesus brings eternal life. "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." John 17:3

Getting back to Ephesians 4:20-24, "But you have not so learned Christ, [u][i][b]if[/b][/i][/u] indeed you have [u][i][b]heard[/b][/i][/u] Him and have been [u][i][b]taught[/b][/i][/u] by Him, as the [u][i][b]truth [/b][/i][/u] is in Jesus;"

The truth that I speak of is that which comes from hearing and being taught by Jesus.

Paul teaches that man grows corrupt according to the deceitful lists. This corruption grows because of the lack of the truth.

"that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man [u][i][b]which grows corrupt[/b][/i][/u] according to the deceitful lists,"

Paul exhorts the believer to, " and be [b]renewed[/b] in the spirit of your mind, and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, [b]in true righteousness and holiness."[/b]

Paul teaches that a believer must experience a renewing of the mind that is according to God. This believer will learn all things pretaining to true righteousness and holiness.
There is no other way. The renewing of the mind seperates the believer from the corruption of the carnal mind. The work of Jesus will teach the believer [b]true righteousness and holiness.[/b]

To have knowledge that is given to us by our Lord will bring understanding of the seperation of the carnal from the spiritual mind.

The writer of Psalm 119 speaks of this requirement.

"Make me understand the way of Your precepts; so shall I meditate on Your wonderful works." vs 27

"Give me understanding, and I shall keep Your law; indeed, I shall observe it with my whole heart." vs 34

"Your hands have made me and fashioned me; Give me understanding that I may learn Your commandments." vs 73

"I have more understanding than all my teachers, for Your testimonies are my meditation." vs 99

"I understand more than the ancients, because I keep Your precepts." vs 100

"Through Your precepts I get understanding; therefore
[b]I hate every false way."[/b] vs 104

"I am Your servant; give me understanding, that I may know Your testimonies." vs 125

"[b]The righteousness of Your testimonies is everlasting; give me understanding and I shall live."[/b] vs 144

The light of life comes by understanding the things that are spiritual.

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we [b]might [/b] know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words [u][i][b]which man's wisdom teaches[/b][/i][/u] but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the [b]natural man[/b] does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; [u][i][b]nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.[/b][/i][/u]...We have the mind of Christ." 1 Corinthians 2:12-16

Was Paul an Gnostic?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/10/29 0:20Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
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 Re:

There's still a lot to talk about in discussing the different phrases that the Bible uses to describe the work of the Spirit. My own conviction is that there are very few genuine synonyms in Bible language. Each phrase used catches the light glinting from a different facet of God's working in His saints. However as we have moved to the more practical applications perhaps this is the time to examine what I called 'James' obstetrics'.

James says two things which are not contradictory; My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; (Jam 1:2 KJV)Now some may say he is not referring to temptation to sin here but rather the trials of life. There is some truth in this, nevertheless, temptation to sin IS one of the trials of life, and no mature human being has ever escaped the 'trials of temptation'. Nor will we in this present life. James says we are to count it all joy when this process is underway! Of course, we are not to put ourselves in the way of temptation and we are not to seek to be tempted or tried; And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. (Mat 6:13 ASV)A little later James amplifies his point; Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. (Jam 1:12 KJV)'Endures' is 'hupermeno' which literally means 'to remain under' something. It is the New Testament root word usually translated 'patience' or 'have patience'; its real sense is 'patient endurance'.

This is James' real point; the man who patiently endures temptation is blessed. When he is 'tried' or 'approved' he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love Him'. This is a wonderful verse; it shows the link between the love of God and the patient endurance which results in blessing. The root of victory over temptation and sin is 'the love of God'; the Wesley's persistently referred to their second blessing sanctification as 'perfect love'. They knew the source of power. The KJV 'tried' sounds as though the trial is the blessing, but ASV captures the real sense of 'dokimos' as 'approved' Blessed is the man that endureth temptation; for when he hath been approved, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to them that love him. (Jam 1:12 ASV)

I think it is worth considering the roots of the word 'dokimos' even if we have to leave James' obstetrics to the another post. Our tendency is to regard 'temptation' as an attack, to be dreaded and resisted. The ideas behind 'dokimos' are not so hostile. The English word 'assay' means to test a metal or ore to determine its ingredients or quality. In the UK we have several Assay Offices. Here is a quote from the home page of the Birmingham Assay Office ; The Birmingham Assay Office has been in operation since 1773. Its prime function is to carry out the testing and hallmarking of precious metal items as required by the Hallmarking Act. (the eagle-eyed among you will have noticed that the Birmingham Assay Office is 3 years older than some countries I might mention. ;-)) Metals have always been tested to ascertain their quality and consequent worth. The UK assay offices stamp every piece of gold and silver in the UK with 3 marks;
1. with a measurement of gold quality, pure gold would be 24 carat, Men's 'hardwearing gold' wedding rings are usually 9 carat. The woman's is 20 carat or better. This is why your wife's ring cost more that yours did.
2. and the date of the 'assay' symbolized usually these days by a letter.
3. Finally they 'sign' it with their Assay Office. This final stamp authorizes the others. It has been 'tried' and this is the verdict signed by the Assay Office.

For some years I worked in the Wedgwood's Pottery Factory. If an item passed their quality standards the Wedgwoods stamp was put on the piece. Sometimes pieces would not reach the Wedgwood standard and these were known as 'seconds'. They were sold on to other manufacturers, but never bore the stamp of approval. They were pottery mavericks, unbranded. An item without the 'trade mark' is defective. The purpose of the assaying of precious metals or the quality checking of pottery was not 'to fail' the article but to ensure its quality and to 'prove' in the sense of 'approve'. We do it constantly... testing the spices in a soup, feeling the texture of a fabric.

The idea of testing and approving is the background to part of Romans 1. The KJV has And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; (Rom 1:28 KJV)But Youngs Literal Translation has maintained the link between the words the KJV has translated as 'like-dokimazO' and 'reprobate-adokimos'; And, according as they did not approve of having God in knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mind, to do the things not seemly; (Rom 1:28 YLT). The imagery here is of the race refusing to 'add its seal' to God's self revelation. (the Bible picture of approving by stamping with a seal can be clearly seen in John 3:33 and 6:27 and elsewhere. The 'sealing' of the Spirit is part of this imagery.) They 'assayed' but would not 'approve'. They saw but would not acknowledge. The consequence was that God abandoned them to a 'defective' mind; a mind that did not have His stamp of approval. The world, in its wisdom, knew not God. (1 Cor 1:21)We should remember the way that the word 'know' can be used in the sense of 'recognize'; the tree by its fruit. The world, by wisdom, refused to acknowledge/recognize God, says Paul in Corinthians. These verses are part of Paul's indictment against the whole race; we are without excuse.

Testing, trial, temptation has always been an integral part of the human condition. The flow of ideas in Luke is startling; Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. (Mat 4:1 KJV)It was immediately following the Father's public acknowledgment of approval of His Son, that 'Jesus... was led... of the Spirit... to be tempted of the devil'. There is no doubting the identity of the Tempter but with all temptation there is an element of the truth that Joseph verbalized; ...ye meant evil against me; but God meant it for good...(Gen 50:20 ASV)James' obstetrics in verses 14 and 15 will have to await a later posting...


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Ron Bailey

 2004/10/29 6:16Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
The consequence was that God abandoned them to a 'defective' mind; a mind that did not have His stamp of approval.



This makes me think of the items in the Temple. The golden vessels. What a fearsome thing to bear the stamp of approval and then allow the vessel (members of our body as it were) to be used in a fasion like unto Belshazzar's ways. Him shall God destroy- for the Temple of God is holy... It would be a good time to look at this because of the ultimate consequence of certain unrepentant sins.


This is some really good stuff. I have known about these things in part, but your discussion of 'assay' really brought it home. It puts a different perspective on the necessity of temptation. Pure gold never has to fear the assay; it will pass the test. To switch to Hebrews use of adokimos, we see the fruit of the tree as the criteria for testing. Is it fruit or are they thornes and briars? that happens to be one of the most fearsome passages in all the bible for an unbeliever to grapple with because it seems to heap up the destruction; rejected nigh unto cursing whose end is to be burned.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/10/29 8:48Profile
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
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 Re:

Quote:
Pollution does not come



I gave this a lot of thought last night and wanted to add a few of them. Gnosticism really deals with 'hidden' knowledge. The idea that somehow there is a hidden knowledge that others do not have access to. I taught on the New Age movement about 10 years ago and one of the books I was studying on the subject was titled something to the effect, "The rebirth of Gnosticism." I think that Gnosticism (of which I had been somewhat accused of being influenced by-by my Jewish professor) has similar ideas that run close to biblical truths. Rat poison is 90% good corn- it is the 10% strict nine that makes it deadly (so to speak). Certainly I can concur that the poison of gnosticism is greater than 10%, but we can't just throw out teachings that are biblical for fear of running parallel with a gnostic teaching. I would not have said that 10 months ago- but in conversations here at SI (especially with Bro. Ron) I have learned to be more careful in my treatment of God's word.

That said, pollution does not come from lack of knowledge in terms of a void of knowledge giving birth to it. I would say that pollution can certainly come as a consequence of a lack of knowledge just as getting the flu may happen as a consequence of not having a flu shot. We also have to grapple with whether or not a person rightly handles the knowledge they receive. This is the difference between knowledge and wisdom, which you brought out well in your remark on spiritual understanding. The question becomes; how will we respond to revelation? If we respond rightly we do well. If not, sin is crouching at the door.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/10/29 9:02Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

A thought came to me last night concerning the doctrine of total depravity and the discussion of the effects of being polluted by the world.

My understanding of total depravity centers around the thought spoken of by Paul in Ephesians 4:17, "...that you should no longer walk as the rest of the gentiles walk, [b]in the futility of their mind.[/b] To me, this means that the carnal mind is unable to know God. To me this speaks of the inability to do God's will. God alone gives witness of Himself. It is by His divine power that man is enabled to know God. So to me, total depravity mean's that the mind of man cannot understand the things of God. Therefore, every thought of man is futile. Paul teaches this throughtout his epistles.

Now there are consequences that come about because of the carnal mind. These consequences develop as the child of the flesh grows into adulthood. The heart of a child is less influenced by the pollution of the world than one who has lived in this system for decades. As an oberservation of the fruit. I have heard from various studies done by evangelicals concerning the different age groups and how they respond to the gospel.

I forget the exact statistics, but generally speaking, 85% of those who profess Christ repented before their 14th birthday. With each decade that follows the remaining 15% come to profess Christ in decending numbers. To me, this is as one should look to the fruit of the tree. What does it say about the nature of man?

Listen to the writer of Psalm 119.

"I entreated Your favor with my whole heart; be merciful to me according to Your word. [b]I thought about my ways, and turned my feet to Your testimonies.[/b] I made haste, and did not delay to keep Your commandments. vs 58-60

Now we know that the natural man cannot turn from his futile ways. But really look to what is said here. "I thought about my ways, and turned my feet to Your testimonies." Only by God teaching him about his ways did this man have the ability to turn with haste towards God. Repentance is God given, not man created. If you listen to where this man receives his instruction, you will come to the conclusion that what Paul teaches in Ephesians 4 is what this man speaks of from his heart.

"Take My yoke upon you and [b]learn[/b] from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find [b]rest[/b] for your souls."

Rest from what? What are we saved from?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/10/29 11:02Profile
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
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 Re:

Hi Bro. Jeff,

I have a book at home that I put together that traces the footsteps of depravity. I liked to call it "The Pathway to Perdition." Suffice it to say that there are literally thousands and thousands of pages of materials that deal with depravity that were written before 1900 that are quite profound. In the end these studies, which men have worn their minds out on for centuries, lead to a lot of dead end roads and theologies that are riddled with anomalies. These anomalies become the point of distinction between the major groups- as one is willing to live with anomalies that the other is not. And hence we have the polemic battle lines drawn for the pen and ink wars that really never helped me understand or grow closer to God. I said that to say, I don't think we can get where we are going if we try to work within that framework. But your point is well taken.

Quote:
What does it say about the nature of man?



It tells us that the heart of man is desperately wicked and unsearchable in that wickedness. It tells us that God had to give man a job, to keep him occupied; working by the sweat of his face to slow the progression of his mischief. It tells us that when man lived to be 900 years old he filled the earth with violence and decadence until every thought of his heart was only evil continually; therefor man was reduced to live 120 years. It tells us that when man was born from pure generations he still found within himself to build a tower until God had to slow the progression again and confound the languages. it tells us that when man had seen all manor of miracles such as Israel saw he still given to mischief- therefor the law was added because of transgressions; shall we go on?

I think the short answer is this and I have seen it through experience- the older a man gets apart from God the meaner and more vile he becomes. I believe this comes about because he has hardened his heart against God and ignored the light that God has set in him and set around him. It comes from always resisting the Holy Ghost. It comes from entertaining sin in the heart.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/10/29 11:39Profile
rookie
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 Re:

Br. Robert,

Do you understand that repentance comes from God? What I mean is, that within man, there is nothing that will cause man to repent. There is nothing in man that gives man the knowledge of what he must repent of. This is a very important distinction to grasp.

Do you hear the words of the writer of Psalm 119? "I thought about my ways, and turned my feet to Your testimonies." What does the Spirit say?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/10/29 12:47Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Br. Robert wrote:

Quote:
In the end these studies, which men have worn their minds out on for centuries, lead to a lot of dead end roads and theologies that are riddled with anomalies.



This is not meant as a deriding remark. The focus of this thread fit into this same category. Have not 1000 of pages been writen on defining parameters in which the Holy Spirit operates. To me this seems fruitless. The results that come from the operation of the Holy Spirit on an individual is always glossed over by the pursuits of men to deny what the Spirit is really showing them. They seek security in religion, and seek the pleasures of this world. Definitions establish religion, the path one walks establishes the evidence of what one hope in.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/10/29 12:58Profile
rookie
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Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Hearing Him dissipates the trust that one has within himself.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/10/29 13:30Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Do you understand that repentance comes from God? What I mean is, that within man, there is nothing that will cause man to repent. There is nothing in man that gives man the knowledge of what he must repent of. This is a very important distinction to grasp.



Hi Bro. Jeff,

Yes, I understand that left to himself man would never seek the Lord. We respond to the Holy Spirit as He convinces us of sin. Finney would argue that God is not obligated to draw man and that man is responsible to God no matter what. I also agree with that. We have to be careful though how far we take the depravity issue because philosophically there is a point to which man is no longer responsible for his actions if he is as depraved as some claim. This is not the case, as it would render God unjust for punishing man for his sin as man had no alternative choice. The rebuttal to this is generally, "Well, God is sovereign and can do what He wants." This is a dangerous statement because it has the flavor of making God act out of harmony with the primary attributes that He has chosen to reveal Himself as (love, etc.). The rebuttal for my last statement is generally, "Well, we have a skewed version of what it means to love in our hearts and can't really say what real love is." The danger of the last statement is that it suggests that God deposited in man a false sense of what love is; or has left man in a state that causes him to misjudge what true love is." Again, this is an endless argument.

My position on this is that men everywhere are commanded to repent and that God the Holy Spirit is drawing all men to repentance and faith. I cannot suscribe to the teaching that election is unconditional. Man must rightly respond to the revelation of his condition as God illuminates him. The more light a person has the more they are responsible for. If we respond rightly to the light we have God will shed more light. If not, the light that he has shall be taken away. Now we move into the doctrine of reprobation.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/10/29 13:48Profile





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