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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : Swine Flu H1N1 should you get it done??

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ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi Lysa...

I suppose that I should clarify that I don't have anything against DOs or against many of the DO practices. Alternative medicine is just that -- an alternative form of medicine. However, I do have a strong concern against practices and medical advice that aren't proven, substantiated or verified by peer reviewed research.

In the case of this particular DO, Dr. Joseph Mercola embraces acupuncture, unproven herbalism and even invisible "energy fields" to diagnose illness. He has pointed out pharmaceutical companies with claims of "profiteering," but this man seems to make large profits from his wide array of alternative medical products. This was the basis for the FDA's verdicts against some of this claims within the marketing of his products.

Interestingly, I have noticed that many of the men (like Joseph Mercola) who speak against vaccinations are also marketing alternatives. They try to refute the validity of legitimate medical research findings, but oddly quote bits and pieces of others in an attempt to validate their own products.

I have no problem with individuals who seek out alternatives to traditional or mainstream treatment. I simply urge them to do their homework! It is never wrong to get a second (or third, fourth and fifth) opinion! This is the wise thing to do. We are encouraged in I Thessalonians 5:21 to "test everything." This is the basis of spiritual discernment. Strangely enough, it is also the basis for proving hypotheses too.

Scientists and doctors within the company that I work for have developed an alternative form of cancer treatment. They could not simply market the tool the very next day. It took over twenty years of study, case study and then limited implementation before the FDA finally approved the devices for widespread treatment. We constantly monitor and document the measured effectiveness of these devices in order to improve them and determine their effectiveness for various cancers and tumors. Yet, the effectiveness of these devices in treating different kinds of cancers is indisputable. I suppose that, initially, this too was a form of "alternative" treatment. The important thing is that the effectiveness of this treatment has been documented through long-term peer reviewed studies.

I would add that influenza vaccinations receive the same sort of investigative scrutiny by medical researchers. The current physical makeup of influenza vaccinations in the United States has remained the same for over a decade (even though the main strain used for treatment might differ). This government explanation is included in one of the citations within my initial post in this thread.

Like someone else pointed out, it does come down to a matter of trust. We are first to trust in God. Yet regarding the effectiveness or safety of the swine flu vaccine as preventive medicine, we can trust the research results from the medical research community...or we can trust the claims of those who are opposed to their conclusions. The other option is to trust no one. We can live our lives without preventive medicine such as a vaccine and live (or die) with the consequences of that choice. As always, our trust should remain firm in our Lord. Now, this is easier for me to decide in regard to myself. However, this decision is just a little more complicated when I think about my wife and family. With all of the research that I have performed, I have no problem recommending this vaccine to my family. In addition to the studies that I have seen, I have known plenty of people who have taken the swine flu vaccine...and there have been no reported side effects in any of them.

I also think that Natan and others have offered great advice concerning the treatment of this strain of the flu. Tamiflu is a great product that has been available for years and has demonstrated its effectiveness in battling the flu. Common sense techniques, like washing your hands well (especially with anti-bacteria soap), is good practice and a preventative measure too. And, of course, we should pray constantly.


_________________
Christopher

 2009/10/28 18:36Profile









 Re:

Chris you have lightened my load with your knowledge on the subject, especially the facts on why the vaccine is needed to help combat the possibility of a mutation.

I was reading one site that (anti swine flu vaccination) that there is high levels of Mercury.

What are your thoughts on that?

 2009/10/28 21:52
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3179


 Re:


The Conflict of Two Wisdoms - Part 1 by Art Katz

The Conflict of Two Wisdoms - Part 2 by Art Katz

 2009/10/28 23:01Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi DeepThinker...

To be honest, I had to do a little research into this. I had heard plenty of arguments about "high levels of mercury" in vaccinations for several years. I looked into it several years ago, but I didn't find anything that indicated much concern within the medical articles that I consulted.

The mercury that is contained in the vaccine is contained with an ingredient known as "thiomersal." The "mercury" in thiomersal is somewhat different than run-of-the-mill mercury found in old thermometers. This is an organomercury component used as a preservative, antiseptic, and antifungal ingredient. It is not only found in vaccines, but it is also found in numerous other products (including those that are ingested). In PubMed, there are quite a few publications where medical researchers have examined the effects of this preservative on the human body. According to all of the articles that I have seen (and according to the CDC, FDA and WHO), there is no evidence whatsoever that this preservative is dangerous in the dose amounts approved by the FDA.

Why is it used as a preservative? Vaccines contain active, greatly weakened versions (or imitations) of the virus. These are considered "live" cultures. For the vaccine to be effective, the vaccination must contain a "preserved" version of the weakened agent. The body's immune system then reacts to the weakened or imitation agent and strengthens itself against future "invasions" accordingly. According to the CDC, thiomersal is the best preservative agent. Without a preserving agent, the vaccine would be either highly ineffective...or even dangerous. Since it is difficult to maintain thiomersal effectively for children's doses, the FDA has begun using alternative methods for children's vaccinations. However, due to the nature of influenza vaccines, thiomersal is still used in children's vaccines as a preservative (unless or until something else can be found). Again, research indicates that the thiomersal dosage is still well within the "safe zone" for children.

According to my friend from college who works on the pharmaceutical team that created the current swine flu vaccine, some of the swine flu vaccinations do NOT contain thiomersal. However, he went on to say that in those that do, "the trace amount of thiomersal is exactly the same as in previous versions of the flu vaccination since 1990." He went on to tell me that "there has never been any indication that it is anything else but safe." As far as the amount of "mercury" in the vaccine, my friend stated that people who eat fresh fish or shellfish probably have ingested much more in a single meal. He went on to explain that it is found in even greater consistency within other medications (including nasal sprays and "allergy skin tests").

The [url=http://www.flu.gov/myths/index.html]website created by the US Department of Health and Human Services[/url] is dedicated to dispelling myths and rumors about the swine flu vaccine -- including questions about thiomersal. These are some of the myths/answers that are provided:

Quote:
[b]“Vaccines that contain thimerosal are unsafe for children and pregnant women.”[/b]

It is safe for children and pregnant women to receive a flu vaccine that contains thimerosal.

Thimerosal is a very effective preservative that has been used since the 1930s to prevent contamination in some multi-dose vials of vaccines. There is no convincing evidence of harm caused by the low doses of thimerosal in vaccines, except for minor reactions like redness and swelling at the injection site.

The 2009-H1N1 influenza vaccines that FDA has licensed will be manufactured in several formulations, including pre-filled, single-dose syringes and nasal sprayers along with multi-dose vials. Only multi-dose vials of seasonal influenza vaccine will contain thimerosal to prevent potential contamination after the vial is opened. Single-dose units, however, will not require the use of thimerosal as a preservative. You may request this form of the vaccine if it is available. In addition, the nasal spray version of the 2009 H1N1 vaccine is produced in single-units and will not contain thimerosal.

[url=http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/thimerosal.htm]Read more about thimerosal.[/url]

[b]“The H1N1 vaccine includes adjuvants, such as squalene.”[/b]

None of the H1N1 vaccines currently distributed by the U.S. government contain adjuvants.

All H1N1 vaccines used in the United States are licensed by the FDA and are made in the same way as seasonal influenza vaccines are made. Currently, seasonal flu vaccines in the United States are also made without adjuvants.

If needed, an adjuvant is a component that can be incorporated into a vaccine to help to generate a stronger immune response to the vaccine and help prevent disease. Squalene is a compound found in many natural sources, such as olive oil, that can act as an adjuvant and is used as an adjuvant in vaccines in many countries.

The evaluation of any vaccine by the Food and Drug Administration considers the safety, effectiveness, and the immune response and includes consideration of all components of the vaccine.

[b]“The federal government is running a mandatory vaccination campaign.”[/b]

The federal government’s vaccination program for H1N1 flu is VOLUNTARY. Some hospitals and localities are requiring that health care workers get vaccinated for the flu, but that is a local decision. HHS and the CDC have included health care workers as one of our top priority groups to receive the vaccine, and several places across the country began offering H1N1 vaccination to health care workers this week.

The petition on a few selected internet sites protesting the federal government’s “mandatory” vaccination campaign is simply false in its claims. Vaccination is highly recommended as a protective measure against the flu, but is absolutely voluntary.

[b]“It costs too much money to get an H1N1 vaccine.”[/b]

The federal government has purchased the H1N1 vaccine and is providing it to the states free of charge. This is different in many places from the seasonal flu vaccine.

Public vaccination clinics (sponsored by local health departments at schools or other places) will offer vaccine at no charge. Some private providers may charge a small fee to administer the vaccine, but cost should not be a barrier to getting immunized. Many, many people and businesses have stepped up to the public health challenge we all face and are working together for the overall public good to make this vaccine free – or at least affordable – for all those who want it.

[b]“You need to get two doses of the H1N1 vaccine, and it takes a month between each dose.”[/b]

There is really good news that has come out of our clinical trials being run by the National Institutes of Health and the flu vaccine manufacturers. The H1N1 vaccine is a really good match with the H1N1 virus currently circulating across the country, and healthy adults and children 10 and older will need only one dose of vaccine.

Though scientists initially thought that two doses might be required, information from clinical trials has since demonstrated the H1N1 vaccine works faster than we expected and works well against the H1N1 virus, which is making millions of Americans sick.

It’s also fine to get the seasonal flu shot and the H1N1 shot at the same time. It is true that if you get the nasal spray form of the vaccine, you need to wait three to four weeks before getting another nasal spray vaccine.

[b]“This new vaccine is not safe and is untested.”[/b]

Clinical trials conducted by the National Institutes of Health and the vaccine manufacturers have shown that the new H1N1 vaccine is both safe and effective. The FDA has licensed it. There have been no safety shortcuts.

It is produced exactly the same way the seasonal flu vaccine is produced every year. It is simply a new virus strain. In fact, had H1N1 struck this country earlier than this spring, the H1N1 strain probably would have been included as part of this year’s seasonal flu shot.

Millions of Americans get the seasonal flu vaccine each year without any problems. Still, understanding that some Americans have concerns about “new” vaccines, the National Institutes of Health and the vaccine manufacturers have conducted more rigorous tests on the H1N1 vaccine than they do on other flu vaccines, and there have been no red flags from these clinical trials.

Also, CDC has stepped up surveillance efforts to track the H1N1 vaccine and any possible adverse events. Since it is so closely related to the seasonal flu vaccine, we do not expect to see serious side effects. But we are taking all the necessary steps to promote and monitor safety.

Our top doctors and scientists believe the risk of the flu, especially for pregnant women, children, and people with underlying health conditions, is higher than any risk that might come from the H1N1 vaccine.

[b]“I got an email that tells the story of someone who got a flu shot and had a miscarriage two days later.” [/b]

Tragically, every day in the U.S., people suffer from heart attacks, miscarriages, strokes, and other health-related events. Some result in serious illness, even death. For example, there are approximately 8,700 deaths from heart attack, 140 cases of Guillain-Barre, and 14,000 miscarriages in the U.S. every week. These events are no more common among people who have received seasonal flu vaccine than in people who have not.

The CDC has received no reports of serious adverse events from people who have received the H1N1 vaccine to date in the clinical trials or in the few places across the country where vaccinations have begun. We have created a strong new surveillance system that will allow us to track adverse reactions and quickly analyze whether there is a link to the vaccine.

[b]“You can get infected with H1N1 virus from eating pork.”[/b]

False. The 2009-H1N1 virus is not spread by food. Eating properly handled and cooked pork products is safe.

[b]“You can get flu from drinking water or swimming pools.”[/b]

Chlorinated tap water and swimming pool water does not put you at risk for flu. To date, we don’t know of anyone who has acquired flu from drinking water or from a swimming pool.

[b]“A 14-year old girl in the United Kingdom died after being vaccinated with the HPV vaccine.”[/b]

British scientists report this particular event was unrelated to the HPV vaccine and definitely unrelated to the H1N1 flu vaccine.

Public health officials in the UK have said the safety of the HPV vaccine was not in question, and no link can currently be made between the girl’s death and the vaccine. According to the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency—their counterpart to the FDA—the girl had a rare serious underlying medical condition that was likely to have caused her death.

Licensed seasonal flu vaccines have a long track record of safety based on use in hundreds of millions of people. H1N1 vaccines are being manufactured by the same methods as the seasonal flu vaccines administered every year.



Due to the persistent rumors circulating around the internet, the [url=http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/updates/thimerosal.htm]Center for Disease Control also has a website[/url] dedicated to the issue.

I hope this helps!

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2009/10/28 23:25Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi HeartSong...

Quote:

The Conflict of Two Wisdoms - Part 1 by Art Katz

The Conflict of Two Wisdoms - Part 2 by Art Katz


Quote:
"O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen."

EDIT: Forgive me Chris. This arrow was aimed at you, but it should have been aimed at the enemy. God bless you!
- 1 Timothy 6:20-21


I'm not sure what it is that you are trying to say. I know that we can disagree on whether or not believers should take vaccines, medicine or even visit doctors. However, the fact remains that there are still people sick in this fallen world. Jesus said that "it is the sick who need a doctor" (Matthew 9:12 and Mark 2:17).

I disagree with the notion that sin is the root of all sickness. If this were true, babies would never get sick. In fact, Jesus covered this when he was asked about the man who was born blind. His disciples asked who sinned -- the man or his parents. Jesus responded, "Neither..." In other words, some people are simply born with an infirmity. We can certainly pray for those people. Similarly, we can pray that God provides for the poor. However, I feel that we can also do what we can within our own means and talents in the confines of this fallen world too.

"[i]I was sick, and ye visited me.[/i]" (Matthew 25:36).

*EDIT - Please forgive me if you feel that I am drowning out your voice from this discussion. This isn't my intention, and I certainly encourage your input too. Thank you, dear friend.


_________________
Christopher

 2009/10/28 23:43Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Perhaps I am being a little simplistic towards this, but if you get the swine flu, so what?

Every child of God is indestructible until our Father decides their time is up. It is not like ANY of this has taken Him by surprise!

So, for me, to die is gain!


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2009/10/29 0:28Profile
IWantAnguish
Member



Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343


 Re:

Quote:
Perhaps I am being a little simplistic towards this, but if you get the swine flu, so what? Every child of God is indestructible until our Father decides their time is up. It is not like ANY of this has taken Him by surprise! So, for me, to die is gain!



My sentiments exactly... I really wouldn't mind dying off before everything hits the fan, but I have a feeling God will have me carry my cross a bit more before I go home. 8-)


_________________
Sba

 2009/10/29 0:35Profile
nearthecross
Member



Joined: 2009/5/13
Posts: 74


 Re:

Like several people said what it comes down to in the end is who you're willing to trust.

I don't see this as very different than the creation/evolution issue in the scientific world. Most scientists naturally [i]assume[/i] that evolution is true. That's what they have been taught at school and university. That's what they hear and learn about all the time. And they base all their studies on that assumption. They also assume that the peer-review system is unbiased (which it most certainly is not!). They assume that just because something is published in a science journal, it is credible evidence. They will often cite sources of studies, in an attempt to "prove" the validity of evolution.

So it would be extremely difficult for a Creation scientist to convince them of the lack of proof for evolution. The evolutionists will likely ask him to cite his sources. He may show them contradictory findings and flawed studies conducted by the evolutionists themselves. But for the most part, he won't be able to cite evolutionary studies, because they are so highly biased in favor of evolution. If he conducts a study of his own, it will either be rejected or ignored by the scientific community. He won't be able to get it published in any major scientific journal. And so an evolutionary scientist can say, "You don't have proof!" or "Your sources aren't trustworthy!" Or, "I've looked at all the major peer-reviewed studies and scientific journals, and so far, I haven't found a single article that validates creationism".

It's the same with conventional vs alternative medicine. Conventional medicine (that is, the medical establishment) largely ignores the research and findings of doctors and scientists in the orthomolecular, hollistic, or nutritional field, especially if they contradict the standard medical "dogma" of the day. The findings are either rejected or ignored. There are many historical examples of this. The FDA has laws that prohibit and limit the sale and distribution of vitamins and alternative methods to healing diseases. People like Stephen Barret are hired to spread disinformation in the form of books and wesites like Quackwatch.com. Doctors and scientists who don't believe that drugs are the answer are either ignored or labeled quacks. So the alternative field isn't even allowed to get its foot in the door of modern medicine.

And then come people like our brother ccchhhrrriiisss who demand proof that, for example, vaccines are bad for you. He does not accept the evidence you give him, however. The only thing he will accept is a peer-reviewed source from mainstream, conventional medicine. Just like the evolutionist demanding the creationist to cite sources from the evolutionary journals to disprove the evolutionary theory!

ccchhhrrriiisss, it seems this debate is going nowhere, and I don't think it profitable to continue in it. The only evidence you will accept and trust is the one that comes from conventional medicine and the pharmaceutical industry. People like me however, based on research and experience, generally do not trust those sources. And I don't see the need for potentially dangerous drugs and vaccines to prevent diseases; God has given us natural means to do that, namely vitamins, minerals, and nutrients that come mainly from a healthy diet.

So we'll have to agree to disagree.

Thanks for the links about the 1918 pandemic. I know that it was a historical occurrence, and that it can be found in history books and encyclopedias; I was mainly asking for any kind of statistical records or data that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the people died of the virus itself, and there were no other major factors involved (like aspirins, strep infections, etc.). I have convincing sources that point to other factors as the reason for so many deaths. But again, they go against the grain and will be considered as coming from quacks and fringe groups, so you probably won't accept them.

The follwing is a powerful documentary called, "Dying to Have Known". It's about the cure for cancer, and it's relevant to what we've been discussing. I would ask you to please watch it with an open mind, it's only about an hour and 20 mins long. There's another documentary by the same director called "The Beautiful Truth". I would really recommend that one as well (though it's not available to freely watch online). Something for you to consider. People you know with cancer might really benefit from it as well. God bless!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7357629140536485998&ei=nxnpSojICZTqqAP6k9X0Cg&q=dying+to+have+known&hl=en#

 2009/10/29 0:43Profile
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3179


 Re:

Dear Chris,

You are killing me brother. You have no idea how these things that you are saying just pierces my heart. Can I get you to focus on what I am about to say? As you read, will you set your analytical mind aside so that the words can sink in? Can you turn off your auto response mode for just a bit?

Our Lord, and Saviour, Jesus Christ died so that we might be set free. That is free from sin and free from death. He died that we might be set free from the worries of this earth. Yes, there is sickness on this earth but most of it is the result of sin (note that I did not say all). This sickness (which can take many forms) is often (note I did not say always) the judgment of the Lord. In mercy, He allows this sickness so that He can get our attention so that we can repent of our sin while we are still on this earth - so that we can repent before we are eternally condemned in hell.

Man has decided that he does not like judgment and has endeavored to come up with many methods of masking, and staving off, these sicknesses - which is in effect shaking his fist at God. When we get a headache we can now pop a pill rather than get on our faces before the Lord.

But God will not be mocked. No matter how good we get at avoiding death, it will still come upon us. God is perfectly capable of keeping every one of us from getting the swine flu, or any other disease, but we must choose to rely on Him. If we choose to rely on something else, that will be where our protection lies.

Those that have chosen to rely upon God for protection from the swine flu, will be protected by God. Some may die, but then they will be with Him so there is no loss. Those that decide to rely upon the shot to protect themselves will be protected by the shot and the wisdom of those that developed it. This decision will be made out of fear, for if they had no fear, they would not be getting the shot. Each person must make his own decision - whether he will trust in the wisdom of God or the wisdom of man. This is really a matter of faith.

Chris, when I read what you write, your focus is clearly on the wisdom of man and you are influencing others to do the same. This is pointing others away from Christ. If a person is feeling convicted to put his faith in the Lord, and you talk them out of it, this is "spiritual abortion."

There are many souls that hang in the balance in these troubled times. If we do not learn to put our faith fully in the Lord we will fall. I pray that anyone that has gotten this shot will go before the Lord and repent - that they will ask Him to forgive them for their unbelief. I pray that anyone that is undecided will make a decision for the Lord. I pray that God will get the glory in these things that are about to come upon us - God have mercy on our souls.

 2009/10/29 1:54Profile
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Re:

Dear HeartSong,

You said, "Our Lord, and Saviour, Jesus Christ died so that we might be set free. That is free from sin and free from death. He died that we might be set free from the worries of this earth. Yes, there is sickness on this earth but most of it is the result of sin (note that I did not say all). This sickness (which can take many forms) is often (note I did not say always) the judgment of the Lord. In mercy, He allows this sickness so that He can get our attention so that we can repent of our sin while we are still on this earth - so that we can repent before we are eternally condemned in hell."

That is exactly the way I see it, too.

Kind regards,
white stone


_________________
Janice

 2009/10/29 2:07Profile





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