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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Inbred Sin Is Not Removed By Conversion

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roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
This is a form of Gnosticism; that man is dualistic in nature.



Uhhh, the Bible teaches that man is dual natured-

"then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature." Genesis 2:7

I'm pretty sure that Adam had flesh, and he was made spiritual by God's breathing into him.

So away with your fancy -isms and other nonsense and just stick to what the Bible says! Plato had no influence over the duality of man in the Bible.

You guys make me laugh, you'll strain at a gnat to make a point but then choke on the camel that is truth.

Like I asked Jesse before, why don't you and he go and stroke each others' egos in your own little "sinless" forum, so we who know and TRULY love what Christ has done for us can rejoice together.

BTW, I'd like to know what you do with the passages that say that God "repented" if repenting means turning away from sin???

EDIT: This will be my one post in this topic as well as truefaith and logic are not interested in learning, only contending for heretical views(proven both in the history of the Church and by the Scriptures themselves).


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2009/10/30 18:26Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
This is a form of Gnosticism; that man is dualistic in nature.

Uhhh, the Bible teaches that man is dual natured-

"then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature." Genesis 2:7

I'm pretty sure that Adam had flesh, and he was made spiritual by God's breathing into him.

So away with your fancy -isms and other nonsense and just stick to what the Bible says! Plato had no influence over the duality of man in the Bible.

Man has soul, spirit & flesh, but none of them are at conflict with each other.
We are not "dualistic" in the sense of the "dualism" theory (& you) claim.

Quote:
BTW, I'd like to know what you do with the passages that say that God "repented" if repenting means turning away from sin???

God turned away from doing that which he was going to do.
God changed His mind.
Jeremaih 18:8 I [God] will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jeremaih 26:3 That I [God] may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them.

Jeremiah 26:13 The Lord will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

Jeremiah 26:19 The Lord repented him of the evil which he had pronounced against them.

Jeremaih 42:10 For I [God] repent me of the evil that I have done unto you.

Jonah 3:10 God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them.

 2009/10/30 18:35Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1572
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote:
ceedub wrote:
So, Job's only problem is that he isn't smart enough before God.

Smart enough?

Quote:
Logic wrote:
Now your just complaining about my response with out any good rebuttal.



I don't think he is complaining just pointing out that Jobs issues where much more than he was not smart enough.

If you go on further in the book of job you'll see that Job says Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seethe thee.

Matt 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart for the shall see God.

Before this meeting with God Jobs heart was not pure as he declares ("I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear") this was in spite of what God said about him earlier "perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil" Job1:1

So clearly there can be an area in your life that can still be un-purified yet still be declared by God "perfect and upright"

We know because of scripture that only the pure in heart shall see God so the area that can be un-purified is the heart.

So Jobs problem was more than not being clever enough it was that his heart was un-purified.

Daulism---The bible tells us we are made up of Spirit, Soul and Body. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 with this verse alone Dualism is declared null and void. Our bodies are the Temple of God and contains three parts just like the temple that was in Jerusalem Holy of Holies, Holy Place and Outer Court.

So it is clear I am focusing here on the Soul not the body or the Spirit. The soul is made up of your mind, will and emotions.

So Mr Smith believes on the Jesus what happens where does the Spirit of God take up residence, in the Spirit of course the Holy of Holies.

Has Mr Smith mind, will and emotions been renewed at that point. No of course not he is a babe in Christ.

Paul describes Babes in Christ as carnal 1 Cor 3:1 he tells us that because you are carnal you are under sin

Roms 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

He then goes onto say in Roms 7:15 that in this condition "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I" He is describing that there is something causing him to do the things he does not want to do.

Paul comes to the conclusion that there is still sin in him that is causing him to do the things he would not do. Roms 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Paul goes on further to say Roms 7:21 "evil is present with me" he delights in the law in the inner man (Spirit--Holy of Holies) "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, (the soul) and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members" Roms 7:23

I don't know how more black and white it can be [b]The law of sin in my memebers[/b] what I called it earlier in my post was a system of sin.

How does Mr Smith get this system removed (the old man)?

Eph 4:22-24 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;(soul) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Roms 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Roms 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the (body of sin)* might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

*Note The body of Sin is not an action but the old man who needs to die.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

What is Christ baptism is it water baptism? Have a read of what John said.

Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Jesus makes a difference between John Baptism (water) and the one they will receive in a few days time.

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Christ baptism is with the Holy Ghost this baptism and only this baptism deals with the old man where he is put to death and you put on the new man who is Christ. This baptism is the one that cleanses the heart.

Acts 15:8-9 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Peter here lets us know that the Holy Ghost purifies the heart this done when the old man is crucified with Christ.

So at conversion the old man is not dealt with, this comes later when you receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Know please don’t read this and think “oh I speak in tongues that means I have been baptized into Christ the old man is dead and I have put on the new man”. What Peter says in Acts 15 8-9 should be standard you should apply to yourself. The question you should ask yourself “Is my heart pure” if the answer is no then you have not been baptized into Christ and the old man is still alive and well and you will be able to identify with Roms 7.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2009/10/30 21:59Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
murrcolr wrote:
Quote:
ceedub wrote:
So, Job's only problem is that he isn't smart enough before God.

Quote:
Logic wrote:
Smart enough?
Now you're just complaining about my response with out any good rebuttal.

I don't think he is complaining just pointing out that Jobs issues where much more than he was not smart enough.

Yes he was.
It's not about being "smart enough", but speaking of what one does have full understanding or wisdom of.
Smart pertains to knowledge, Job is pertaining to wisdom and understanding, there is a BIG difference.

Quote:
If you go on further in the book of job you'll see that Job says Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seethe thee.

In that verse, Hearing and seeing are an antithesis.
[b]Job 42:5[/b] [color=660000]I have (only) heard of you by the hearing of the ear: but now my eye sees you[/color]
IOW, "Before, I have only heard of You by tradition, or known of You by imperfect sources, but, I now have such a revelation of You (God) as I have never had before."

Job did not know God as he does now.
Job was only speaking from the knowledge of which he possessed before this encounter. This is not sinful. It would only be sinful if he knew better than what he spoke.

Sin is always intentional, therefore Job was blameless, and still is.

[b]Job 42:6[/b] [color=660000]Therefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.[/color]
Since Job was innocent when he spoke from only the knowledge which he had before this revelation, the knowledge of what he now learns does not become held against him.
However, when he learns the truth of God in a brighter light, his repentance is only implying that he will not say what he had before, knowing what he knows now.

[b]Job 42:7[/b] [color=660000]After the Lord had spoken these words to Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite: “My anger burns against you and against your two friends, for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.[/color]
If Job did sin, The Lords anger would also burn against him also.
However, God claimed that Job has spoken of Him what is right, as his friends didn't.

Quote:
[b]Matt 5:8[/b] [color=660000]Blessed are the pure in heart for the shall see God.[/color]

Before this meeting with God Jobs heart was not pure as he declares ("I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear") this was in spite of what God said about him earlier "[color=660000]perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil[/color]" [b]Job1:1[/b]

It was pure, otherwise God wouldn't have said that he was perfect and upright.
With out a pure heart, one can not be perfect and upright.

Quote:
So clearly there can be an area in your life that can still be un-purified yet still be declared by God "perfect and upright"

How so?

If you let an area of your life be against God, How will God over look that and call you "perfect and upright"?

Quote:
We know because of scripture that only the pure in heart shall see God so the area that can be un-purified is the heart.

You still can't be called "perfect and upright"; especially by God, if you let an "area" of your life/heart be impure.

We are to guard our hearts:
[b]Pro 4:23[/b] [color=660000]Keep your heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.[/color]

Quote:
So Jobs problem was more than not being clever enough it was that his heart was un-purified.

Again, it's not about being "smart" or "clever", but speaking of what one does have full understanding or wisdom of.

Quote:
Dualism---The bible tells us we are made up of Spirit, Soul and Body. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 with this verse alone Dualism is declared null and void. Our bodies are the Temple of God and contains three parts just like the temple that was in Jerusalem Holy of Holies, Holy Place and Outer Court.

It is null and void, but your still using Dualistic theology; claiming that there is a battle of good vs. evil with in man.

So, you are contradicting yourself by having the "sin nature" theology and discounting Dualism.

Quote:
So it is clear I am focusing here on the Soul not the body or the Spirit. The soul is made up of your mind, will and emotions.

So Mr. Smith believes on the Jesus what happens where does the Spirit of God take up residence, in the Spirit of course the Holy of Holies.

Huh?

Quote:
Has Mr. Smith mind, will and emotions been renewed at that point. No of course not he is a babe in Christ.

It doesn't matter how "old" one is in the Lord.

One may be "renewed" in his mind right after conversion.
[b]Rom 12:2[/b] [color=660000]And be not conformed to this world: but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.[/color]

One may ever discard his views which he held and adopt new ones immediately after conversion.
[b]2Corinth 10:5[/b] [color=660000]Casting down arguments, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;[/color]

Quote:
Paul describes Babes in Christ as carnal 1 Cor 3:1 he tells us that because you are carnal you are under sin

Carnal Christian are not because they are yet babes in Christ, but the other way around.
They are STILL babes because they are carnal.
Their carnality stunts their growth.

Carnality is a choice, not an "age of spiritual growth.

Quote:
Roms 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

This is concerning a pre-salvation experience.
[b]IOW:[/b]
[b]Roms 7:14[/b] For we know that the requirements are spiritual, but I am soulish, living after the flesh, having sold myself into slavery to my own unlawful affections.
Romans 6:16-20, Galatians 5:17b
Paul actually sold himself into slavery.
This verse is key to understand the following verses)

Quote:
He then goes onto say in Roms 7:15 that in this condition "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I" He is describing that there is something causing him to do the things he does not want to do.

Yes, his will has not been conformed to God's.
He is still unsaved.
That which is "causing" him to do the things he does not want to do is choosing to satisfy his appetites toward his affections which are still towards the unlawful.

Quote:
Paul comes to the conclusion that there is still sin in him that is causing him to do the things he would not do. Roms 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

The so called "sin" is the fleshly desires which are contrary to what is right.
That "sin which dwells in me" are the unlawful desires of my flesh.

We can not help what our flesh will take pleasure in.
I may take pleasure in an unlawful thing, but that fact is not sin or sinful.
However, if I actually do the unlawful act which I would take pleasure in is a sin, or is sinful.

[b]Example:[/b]
Flesh will take pleasure in sex, out side of marriage or in marriage; it doesn't matter, sex is pleasureful.
It is up to us to satisfy our appetites lawfully, we must take pleasure in lawful things.

Quote:
Paul goes on further to say Roms 7:21 "evil is present with me" he delights in the law in the inner man (Spirit--Holy of Holies) "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, (the soul) and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members" Roms 7:23

[b]Rom 7:21[/b] [color=660000]I find then a standard, that when I desire to do good, corruption[/color] (weakness & inability of the flesh) [color=660000]is right there with me.[/color]
Galatians 5:17b
The "evil" is not "[b]in[/b]" him, but "[b]with[/b]" him as being the flesh (the fleshly unlawful desires are that "evil" or "corruption")

Quote:
I don't know how more black and white it can be [b]The law of sin in my members[/b] what I called it earlier in my post was a system of sin.

I explained what that "system of sin" is.
Did you read it?

The “law of sin” (system of sin) in this verse is the demands of our own fleshly desires & affections against known law that bring us in opposition to God which separates us from Him.
The "law of sin" (system of sin) includes the inability of the flesh to deny its own fleshly desires apart from the Spirit & faith in HIM.
Remember this, for it is important to remember!

This concludes that which is in our “members” (v.23) are the unlawful affections &/or desires which brings about spiritual death.

Quote:
How does Mr. Smith get this system removed (the old man)?

By nullifying, crucifying the flesh (Choosing to), so that we no longer serve those passions.
This is a willful, intentional thing on our part, [b]we must be obedient[/b].

Quote:
Eph 4:22-24 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;(soul) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Roms 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the (body of sin)* might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

*Note The body of Sin is not an action but the old man who needs to die.

(Colos 3:9) The term "old man" (Rom 6:6) makes for a word play of "body of sin".
The "old man" would be the person that Paul was before salvation.
Our old man (or who we were before we were saved) is the one that chose to walk after the flesh in regards to our former behavior (Eph 4:22), having been corrupted according to the deceitful lusts.

Quote:
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

What is Christ baptism is it water baptism? Have a read of what John said.

Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Jesus makes a difference between John Baptism (water) and the one they will receive in a few days time.

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Christ baptism is with the Holy Ghost this baptism and only this baptism deals with the old man where he is put to death and you put on the new man who is Christ. This baptism is the one that cleanses the heart.

Acts 15:8-9 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Peter here lets us know that the Holy Ghost purifies the heart this done when the old man is crucified with Christ.

When we acknowledge our place in His death we may also acknowledge our place in resurrection (Rom 6:3-6), only then can we be redeemed & cleansed with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot (1Peter 1:19, Titus 2:14) and freed from being under the law (Romans 6:14 & 7:4) as being under grace instead (Romans 6:14): acknowledging that He is representing us on that cross and we die through Christ and rise in newness of life(Romans 6:4 &11).

We acknowledge this by [color=660000]baptism, which symbolizes our death and resurrection in Christ, not by the removing of outward filth of the flesh but by providing us with a good and clear conscience[/color] (inward cleanness and peace) [color=660000]before God through the[/color] [death and] [color=660000]resurrection of Jesus Christ[/color] [b]1Peter 3:21[/b].


Quote:
So at conversion the old man is not dealt with, this comes later when you receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

All men receive the Holy Ghost at conversion, for He is the seal of our salvation.
The old man MUST be dealt with at conversion, otherwise you are not proving your faith with works.

If your old man is nor "put off" at conversion, your faith is dead; for faith with out works is dead.

 2009/10/31 12:30Profile
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Dear Brothers and Sisters, this will be my last post in this thread. It is not profitable to argue with those who post for argument's sake, and not for the edification of others. However, I felt it necessary to point out some gross falsehood being taught here by some, lest others make the mistake of believing them:

The apostle Paul said:

[i]Ro 7:17-18 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is [b][u]sin[/u] living in me[/b]. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in [b]my [u]sinful[/u] nature[/b]. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.[/i]

When murrcolr pointed out that Paul called this sin, Logic said:

Quote:
The so called "sin" is the fleshly desires which are contrary to what is right. That "sin which dwells in me" are the unlawful desires of my flesh. We can not help what our flesh will take pleasure in. [b]I may take pleasure in an unlawful thing, but that fact is [u]not sin or sinful[/u][/b]. However, if I actually do the unlawful act which I would take pleasure in is a sin, or is sinful.


So now, Logic feels he is qualified to correct the apostle Paul and the Bible, that what they called sin is actually not sin according to Logic. He claims, on his own authority, that sinful thoughts are not sin and he is saying that Paul and the Bible are wrong.

Who are we to believe? Is Christ not the "Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us"? Isn't the Bible the inerrant word of truth?

It was the Lord Jesus himself who taught us:

[i]Mt 15:19-20 [color=CC3300][b]For out of the heart come evil thoughts[/b], murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. [b]These are what make a man ‘unclean’[/b]; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him ‘unclean.’ ”[/i][/color]

Trust in the Word of Truth; Jesus Christ is the Truth. Do not trust in the deceitful arguments, reasonings, and logic of mere men.

 2009/10/31 13:07Profile
Earendel
Member



Joined: 2009/3/17
Posts: 308
Central Alberta, Canada

 Re: Inbred Sin Is Not Removed By Conversion

Was Adam sinful before he fatally yielded to his temptation? Did Adam have a sinful nature before he yielded to his temptation?

No tempter = no sin.

...The sinful nature of man, what is it?

Please consider 1 Corinthians 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful,

who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.


...But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
James 1:14

…but how do desires get corrupted?


Desires get corrupted early in life, before one becomes transformed into the image of Christ, before one is born again by the Spirit of God.


I believe the origin of temptation comes from satan/demons (which began at Garden of Eden). I also believe that they can only tempt through the veil of our flesh by warring with the mind.


So, what is the sinful nature?


These satans/demons absolutely know the will of God, and before a person becomes a believer, they draw people to sin against the will of God starting very early in life...through the flesh by warring with the mind of the individual...by bringing a man into captivity to the desires and lusts of the flesh, before the mind has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit.


They war against all believers in this way - through the veil of the flesh that we are housed in. These demons start their work early in a person's life, before they come to Christ and try and form a person into their very own image...and this is their war with and against the God of heaven, our Creator who is forever blessed - Amen.


Therefore it is written to us who are to be the heirs of salvation:


Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,(consider Hebrews 12:4) but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Ephesians 6:11-13



We also must be aware/mindful of where and what these demons/satans will tempt us (target our minds), so that we may not be ignorant of their devices and be able to fight the good fight of faith. They primarily target and draw a person to these:


Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21 James 4:7


Further it is written, that we are to be on the look out for this:


Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 1 Peter 5:8



Now here is a very interesting point to make, and is necessary to understand..



If satan/demons were bound hand and foot and removed from influencing us (we who are the Bride) in our earthly lives, would there be any temptation to sin? – I would say probably not...NO TEMPTER = NO SIN (think about that one)...but the mind still has to be renewed after Christ nonetheless. Again, did Adam have a sinful nature before he sinned? But Adam's yielding to his temptation gave satan license over the entire race of man.


I have always believed that satan/demons need to get permission from God first before they can tempt, fight against or even harass a saint to sin. Here is why I believe this: (I am reminded of the story of Job, how that satan had to get permission first, and he did this by accusing Job before God - Job 1:6-12 )...he does this to us, the heirs of salvation by accusing us constantly day and night before God, even as it written. Wherefore we are admonished by the Lord Jesus Himself to pray to our Father in heaven “Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil” That is to say Dear Father, please don’t listen to the evil accusers, who stand before you day and night accusing me, but deliver me from them and don’t let them draw me away from you.


So what happens when satan no longer gets to accuse us day and night before God? What happens?


...so if he can no longer accuse us day and night before God, and he doesn't get permission to tempt us to any kind of sin, or to spiritually harass etc. what do you think will happen on the earth when the work of the Holy Spirit is unfettered from satanic hindrances in our lives?
GLOBAL REVIVAL, that’s what!!! (the number which no man could number?)...After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, ...Revelation 7:9


This will happen on Earth, and is why I believe that a "Great Revival" is coming to the earth, but during the "Great Tribulation"

- Ephesians 6:12 will end for us who are the body of Christ… it will end for us…and here’s why:

And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. Rev 12:7-10

(Meaning satan does not get permission to accuse/tempt/harass anymore) Ephesians 6:12 which says: For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,[a] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

They (devils) will no longer be in heavenly places; therefore, Ephesians 6:12 ends for us who are the body of Christ!!!! [b]And this is why[/b] it is written: “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come!!


Okay, I know...big emphasis is mine, but No accuser standing before God day and night accusing us before God means no permission to tempt a saint to sin, or to spiritually fight against, or harass a saint in there work, which means there will be a global revival on the earth unfettered from any satanic hindrances!!!

There will be no more wrestling in the spirit with satan and his demons in high places…their day will finally be at an end!!!

Then there will be a revival on the Earth such as never occurred before unto this time, as the Bride of the Lamb will finally be able to get herself ready.


Consider the voice of the holy angel, what he said, when satan is cast out (At no other time since creation is this said.):

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

Notice the angel says, now...not before, during the time of the early church did he say this, [b]nor at any other time[/b], but during the Tribulation only - [u]after[/u] the war in heaven between Michael and his angels, and satan and his angels.



What this means is the Bride of the Lamb will finally be able to get herself ready without any spiritual hindrance, without any temptation to sin of any kind, without any accuser standing before God - she will get her wedding garments ready and be holy, and without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, she will have righteous works - even as it is written that she should.




_________________
David

 2009/10/31 13:57Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Leo_Grace wrote:
Dear Brothers and Sisters, this will be my last post in this thread. It is not profitable to argue with those who post for argument's sake, and not for the edification of others. However, I felt it necessary to point out some gross falsehood being taught here by some, lest others make the mistake of believing them:

The apostle Paul said:
[i]Ro 7:17-18 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is [b][u]sin[/u] living in me[/b]. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in [b]my [u]sinful[/u] nature[/b]. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.[/i]

When murrcolr pointed out that Paul called this sin, Logic said:
Quote:
The so called "sin" is the fleshly desires which are contrary to what is right. That "sin which dwells in me" are the unlawful desires of my flesh. We can not help what our flesh will take pleasure in. [b]I may take pleasure in an unlawful thing, but that fact is [u]not sin or sinful[/u][/b]. However, if I actually do the unlawful act which I would take pleasure in is a sin, or is sinful.


So now, Logic feels he is qualified to correct the apostle Paul and the Bible, that what they called sin is actually not sin according to Logic. He claims, on his own authority, that sinful thoughts are not sin and he is saying that Paul and the Bible are wrong.

I'm not "correcting the apostle Paul and the Bible", but your understanding of it.
Shhees.
Who in their right mind would think to do such as you accuse me of there?

I'd like to point out that Leo_Grace used a translation which uses his bias of the so called "sin nature"

The word is [b]FLESH[/b], not sinful nature.
The flesh is still "Good" as God called it in the beginning.
You're claiming that it is not.

No one can refute my point:
The so called "sin" in Roms 7:17 is the fleshly desires which are contrary to what is right.

Paul is personifying sin. Sin can not "do" anything as Paul is saying in Rom 7:17.

Sin can not be "in" anyone.
Sin can not "do that which I would not" (Rom 7:16) which Paul blames on sin in Rom 7:17.

Paul goes on to explain that it is His flehs in Verse 18
[color=660000]For I know that in me (that is, [b]in my flesh[/b]) dwells no good thing:[/color]

The flesh was never meant to be used as strength for resisting sin. It is one of the very reasons that Adam fell, lust of the flesh...

Paul clames that he is willing to do good in verse 18 (willing to have the right affections), but, he doesn 't know how to do it: [color=660000]but how to perform that which is good I find not.

One MUST understand that Paul is portraying a pre-salvation experience in order to understand Romans 7.
Otherwise your going into stuff like Gnostisism/Manichaeism Neo-Platonism, Dualism, Good vs evil, flesh is bad...ect...

[b]Col 2:21[/b] [color=660000]Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch,
[b]:22[/b] which things are all for corruption in the using, according to the "injunctions and teachings of men." Isa. 29:13
[b]:23[/b] Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in self-imposed worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; But not one of them is of any value in combating the indulgence of the flesh.[color]

Pail does not have anything else to put his affection on in order for him to stop sinning, except for the ones he has already grown accustom to (the sinful ones). What will he satisfy his god given appetites on?
He doesn’t have any alternative pleasure other than that which he has been taking pleasure in for him to stop.

The law telling him that he must stop is not enough. His desires must change from his own, to that of God's.

The law is not enough for one to stop sinning; it only tells you that you should stop and not how you should (The will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not Romans 7:18).

Quote:
Who are we to believe? Is Christ not the "Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us"? Isn't the Bible the inerrant word of truth?

What are we to believe, that God gave us a nature which He hates, which makes us sin against Him?
And to blame this on Adam has no scriptural back up.

It is not our nature which is sinful, but our desires and how we satisfy our appetites.
We have nothing to blame but ourselves, not our nature.

The reason why we choose to sin is not out nature, but our own fault; to blame our nature is to blame God, for He gave us all our nature.

 2009/10/31 14:10Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

Earendel wrote:
Was Adam sinful before he fatally yielded to his temptation? Did Adam have a sinful nature before he yielded to his temptation?

No tempter = no sin.

The reason of Adams fall is that he gave into his flesh’s unlawful affection:
[b]1John 2:16[/b] [color=660000]For all that is in the world,[/color]
[b]1:[/b] [color=660000]the lust of the flesh[/color]
[b]2:[/b] [color=660000]the lust of the eyes[/color]
[b]3:[/b] [color=660000]the pride of life,
is not of the Father, but is of the world.[/color]
[b]Gen 3:6[/b] [color=660000]And when the woman saw that the tree was[/color]
[b]1:[/b] [color=660000]good for food,
and that it was[/color]
[b]2:[/b] [color=660000]pleasant to the eyes.
and a tree to be[/color]
[b]3:[/b] [color=660000]desired to make one wise
she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.[/color]

I would go so far as to say that they had iniquity in their hearts before the actually sinned.

Quote:
but how do desires get corrupted?
Desires get corrupted early in life, before one becomes transformed into the image of Christ, before one is born again by the Spirit of God.

The explanation becomes clear if we carefully consider the development of a man. As a baby enters the world the natural, inherited appetites are already developed and the child's natural love of conscious freedom begins to express itself.

These appetites are not bad or wrong in & of themselves, in fact, appetite is good unless it's used wrongly &/or not kept in check. A person’s will begin to form the habit of obeying desire, which is the appetite, which deepens & strengthens as time passes. The danger comes when the appetites becomes toward unlawful things to be satisfied.
The sin is only realized when it is known to be wrong and willfully chosen to be continued in the knowledge of being wrong, thus becoming accountable.
Paul even said that he had not known sin, but by the law (Romans 7:7)

The feelings &/or emotions develop long before the rational becomes fully developed, the feelings &/or emotions are deeply entrenched in the child's personality before conviction and understanding of the things of God.

Since the feelings develop before the rational and conscience, one may begin to form the bad habit of obeying desire rather than what is right, this bad habit may deepen & strengthen even time passes. The obvious consequence is that self indulgence may become the master principle in the soul of the child long before it can understand that this self-indulgence will interfere with the obedience to God &/or conscience. This is why the parents must keep the child in discipline. Since the child is only accountable to its parents and not yet to God, this is the only time when the child can learn by it's failings; which is a great part of learning.

However, feelings are not sinful in & of themselves; no one can help what they feel. If they are not kept in check by the parents, the infant will not learn how to control them.
Sin comes when feelings rule &/or be the judge, also when the feelings are doing the controlling & not being controlled.
All mature people are able to control their feelings when they come, but innocent infants can not control their feelings because of immaturity &/or lack of development.
When they are able to control their feelings and do not, sin is right at the door.
If they cripple them self by not refusing to learning how to control their feeling and thus are unable to, they are still accountable for not learning, since they intentionally did not learn.
If or when parents cripple their children in this area, the parents are accountable and the children are only accountable to the degree of their own ability.

Finally, the moment of true moral responsibility arrives at the age of accountability.
The child is now old enough to understand wrong (Isaiah 7:16, Deut 1:39). This will probably be earlier in a Christian home than in a non-Christian one. Does the child approach this test in a perfectly neutral state?
If Adam, in the maturity of his reason, with full consciousness of the morality of his actions could give in to such temptation, it is still possible that a child will not because sin is always a choice. However, the moment that child chooses selfishly, it sins. From this point on (and NOT before) God holds the child responsible for its own actions and destiny. It is significant that all words of the Lord to sinners begin FROM THEIR YOUTH, and NOT from birth, as some have supposed.
(WINKIE PRATNEY)

Quote:
If satan/demons were bound hand and foot and removed from influencing us (we who are the Bride) in our earthly lives, would there be any temptation to sin? – I would say probably not...NO TEMPTER = NO SIN (think about that one)

Explain the rebellion after the 100 year reign of Christ when satanis bound anf thrown into the botttomless pit and removed from influencing us.

How would Satan have so many people to follow him if it were only him & his demons?

Quote:
Again, did Adam have a sinful nature before he sinned? But Adam's yielding to his temptation gave Satan license over the entire race of man.

No, each individual gives him license when they yield to him.

 2009/10/31 14:31Profile
Earendel
Member



Joined: 2009/3/17
Posts: 308
Central Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Logic wrote:
Quote:
[i]The reason of Adams fall is that he gave into his flesh’s unlawful affection: 1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, 1: the lust of the flesh 2: the lust of the eyes 3: the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was 1: good for food, and that it was 2: pleasant to the eyes. and a tree to be 3: desired to make one wise she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. I would go so far as to say that they had iniquity in their hearts before the actually sinned.[/i]

This does not answer if Adam would have sinned without a tempter.

No tempter = no sin.

And you cannot prove sin in Adam before the temptation to it. Saying that Adam had sin in his heart before the temptation to it has no biblical foundation at all. Show me in the bible where it says that Adam was sinful in his heart before the temptation to it.

Logic wrote:
Quote:

[i]Explain the rebellion after the 100 year reign of Christ when satanis bound anf thrown into the botttomless pit and removed from influencing us. How would Satan have so many people to follow him if it were only him & his demons?[/i]

I assume you meant 1000 year reign. The rebellion does not occur with the resurrected saints (those who were part of the first resurrection, but with people that will be the descendants of those who survived from the nations after the great tribulation. After the 1000 year reign satan is let loose on the Earth again (no longer bound).

The rest of your reply is just verbose opinion with no scriptural merit.


_________________
David

 2009/10/31 15:35Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Earendel wrote:
Quote:
Logic wrote:

The reason of Adams fall is that he gave into his flesh’s unlawful affection: 1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, 1: the lust of the flesh 2: the lust of the eyes 3: the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was 1: good for food, and that it was 2: pleasant to the eyes. and a tree to be 3: desired to make one wise
she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
I would go so far as to say that they had iniquity in their hearts before the actually sinned.



This does not answer if Adam would have sinned without a tempter.

No tempter = no sin.

And you cannot prove sin in Adam before the temptation to it. Saying that Adam had sin in his heart before the temptation to it has no biblical foundation at all.

Satan can only tempt you of that which you already have a longing for.

No one can be tempted of what they don't want.

Vanilla Ice cream is yummy, but I don't want any now, so I can't be tempted with it.

When some one is full of food, even the most delicious food will not tempt them.

Quote:
Show me in the bible where it says that Adam was sinful in his heart before the temptation to it.

I already did.
Adam & Eve had the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the pride of life.

Quote:
Quote:
Logic wrote:

Explain the rebellion after the 100 year reign of Christ when Satan is bound and thrown into the bottomless pit and removed from influencing us. How would Satan have so many people to follow him if it were only him & his demons?

I assume you meant 1000 year reign.

Yep, sorry. Multiply it by 10.

Quote:
The rebellion does not occur with the resurrected saints (those who were part of the first resurrection, but with people that will be the descendants of those who survived from the nations after the great tribulation. After the 1000 year reign Satan is let loose on the Earth again (no longer bound).

Yes, but the others had no tempter to want a rebellion.
Satan just comes in with a proposition which they were wanting all along.

The fact that they will rebel proves that a tempter is not needed. Satan only came as a leader.

Quote:
The rest of your reply is just verbose opinion with no scriptural merit.

It's not verbose, it's a good explanation as to why Desires get corrupted early in life.

The simple explanation is that desires do not get corrupt, because desire is good.

We just put our affections on the wrong things.

 2009/10/31 17:40Profile





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