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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Perfection & Security

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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

ccrider wrote:

Let's take a survey.

HOW MANY HERE LOVES SIN, PRACTICES IT, EMPLOYS THEMSELVES TO IT, AND HABITUALLY (very subjective) DOES IT??

Just quote this above and say "Yes I qualify". If this is the case then you can repent of this and be clean in Christ.

The thing is, you can't even repent of it if you can't stop it.

Since you can't repent (stop), then you can't be "clean in Christ"
Even though, if you can't stop, you arent realy guilty in the first place, because it is beyond your control.

Quote:
If not then logic says you are not a 'sinner' in the biblical sense and thereby clean and free.

If it is not the case, then that means you have repented of it because you were guilty of it and it is in your control.




Quote:
"My whole point is that to say one can't stop sinning is rediculous." logic

After the multiple upon multiple upon multiple times you've made your 'whole point'.... we get it.

It don't seem as "you get it"
You still say that you can't stop sinning.

If you can't stop sinning, then you are not disobeying God when you sin, but only doing that which you must.
Furthermore, if youre doing that which you must, then you can't repent of it.

 2009/10/23 11:25Profile
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Hello Travis,

Quote:
If we learn to live and walk as righteous men filled with the Holy Spirit, this whole discussion becomes a moot point. Is it possible to go through a day, a month, a year without committing an action of sin? What does it matter? I have been born again. The body of sin and death that dwelt in me has been dealt with. I am the righteousness of God. I am dead to self and alive unto God. I am going to come into agreement with Him and with His word on every occasion. I am going to learn to walk being led of the Holy Spirit. Sin is no longer an issue with me. As I walk this way, a blessed work of sanctification and holiness is coming forth in me. I don't look like, act like, talk like the world, and I am not even totally aware of how it came to be that way. All I know is that I am being changed from glory to glory into His image day by day and I love it!


I agree totally with what you said here - that is exactly the way understand my salvation also. But please read the whole thread. Some of us here are trying to deal with a couple of posters who insist that being born again means being totally without sin as a choice in their lives. They totally deny the truth in Scripture (Lk 18:9-14 and 1 Jn 1:5-10) that every born-again Christian must be humble enough to recognize that sin remains with us as long as we live in the flesh, and that this must be confessed and repented of. Would you claim to be without sin now that you are born again?

I am not preaching that Christians must be fully absorbed by their sinfulness - we should rejoice in our salvation that frees us from the bondage of sin. But we should not be so proud as to ignore the truth in Scripture that we must remain vigilant against sin in our lives.

You said:
Quote:
If I do commit an act of sin, it has a very negative effect on me, but does not cause my spirit to become "un-born again". Because I am born again, I have the Holy Spirit constantly speaking to me. When I fall short, He convicts me of it. It is up to me then to agree with Him and say, "Yes Lord, that was wrong.


This is exactly what Christians do - recognize, confess and repent of sin when it happens. This is what I am trying to say, and I have pointed at Scripture that commands this.

How would you deal with a "believer" who refuses to accept this and says: "No- I refuse to believe that I am capable of sinning any longer because I have been born again and I have chosen not to sin, therefore I no longer sin"?

 2009/10/23 11:36Profile
IWantAnguish
Member



Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343


 Re:

It basically comes down to this...

What is sin?

Logic apparently has a different definition than Leo.


_________________
Sba

 2009/10/23 12:04Profile
bdcutler
Member



Joined: 2009/9/15
Posts: 22
Mitchell SD

 Re:

Travis,

That was very edifying and encouraging! We are dead indeed to sin, and alive in Christ. I hold fast to the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him Crucified; I believe it, holding on to it, even if I don't always see it. God [i]is[/i] changing me from glory to glory to glory...Amen! May I be humble always, knowing that it is His Grace working in me that causes me to become what He wants me to become: like His Son, Jesus Christ.

God bless you!

Ben


_________________
Benjamin Cutler

 2009/10/23 12:08Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1262


 Re:

Travis,

Great posting!!!

Leo,

The 1st chapter in 1john tells us as a Christian the importance of walking in the light continually so that we can be cleansed from all sin. It is talking about our growth in sanctification. Everyone who has been saved must be cleansed from our former lifestyle of sinning. We are to put off the old man and we are to be renewed in our minds in spiritual holiness.

Now let’s look at

1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


Notice in verse 5 where he says “he was manifested to take away our sins” and “in Him is no sin” showing us that we need him to take away our sins. He did not say that we have no sin because back in chapter one he clearly told us if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves. We must abide in him in order not to continue to commit sins. The “eth” word means continually. We who have been truly born of God and abiding in Him cannot willfully practice sin. No true Christian who loves God and walking in fellowship will continue to practice sin but because sin as part of our nature before we were saved and because we are still human and have not receive our glorified bodies, we will still fall short of the glory of God. We will confess it and be cleansed by the blood of Jesus as we continue to walk in the light. We will not be willfully committing sins nor continuing to practice sin because the seed (the nature of Christ) cannot sin. The more His nature controls our lifestyle the less we will fall short of his glory. Perfection is the goal Christ has for all of us, but complete perfection will be obtainable only in that glorified body.

The problem with Logic is that he denies the sin nature and therefore does not believe he has one. So he thinks he doesn’t sin because sin is only a choice. Then he goes on to say that he only sins every so often and so by his own doctrinal belief of being able not to sin and then sinning every once in a while, he is saying that he is not born of God. The scripture says that the born of God do not commit sin and Logic says that he does commit sin every once in a while. A man like Logic who claims that he has the power not to sin, because he doesn’t have, neither was born with a sin nature, but then decides he will sin once a month makes me wonder why he would want to sin at all. Myself I know I inherited a sin nature from Adam but thank God for the new nature I received from Christ and I don’t want to commit a sin ever, not once a month, neither one time in all of eternity. Since I have been born of God I have received a nature that does not commit sin. As long as I abide in Christ I will never desire to commit sin but if I fail to abide continually in Christ and allow that other nature to rise up instead of remaining crucified I could easily sin and will need to confess to God for cleansing through the blood of Christ and thank God for his mercy. Our focus should not be on self but Christ. We should not be thinking after the flesh but the after the Spirit where there is life and peace, then the Holy Spirit will convict us of any sin to confess and be cleansed from. We are to be dead to sin and self but alive to God. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from our sins but the cross crucifies our sinful nature. We must believe that we were crucified with Christ in order for the old man (our sinful nature) and his deeds to be destroyed.

Blessings to all!



 2009/10/23 12:09Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

IWantAnguish wrote:
It basically comes down to this...

What is sin?

Logic apparently has a different definition than Leo.

This must be it.
If one can not stop sinning, then it can not be repented of and he is not guilty of it.

This is because if you can't stop sinning, it is out of your control, and if it is out of your control, you are not accountable to it.

Sin is a choice, which is able to be denied.

I'm not being proude, all I'm doing is stating the logic and common sense of it all.

Sin must be repentable, if you can't stop what ever you call sin, it must not be sin.

Unless you keep finding new sins in your life; they keep popping up and the Lord keeps revealing them to you. But then how do they get there but by your own choice to let them into your life?

 2009/10/23 12:31Profile









 Re:

"The thing is, you can't even repent of it if you can't stop it." logic

Okay... have you stopped it??? Yes or no.


"The fact that I sin maybe "once a month, a year, or a decade" just proves that I chose to sin, but then I repent and stop it again." logic

Stop it AGAIN. And again. And again. And again.

Okay you said above that "The thing is, you can't even repent of it if you can't stop it." but interestingly use the words repent and stop it AGAIN. I see the words STOP and AGAIN as contradictory as your theology. You seem to think that righteousness is repenting as many times as needed and after each time you have the ability to live sinlessly thereafter. That is until you sin again and repent again and NOW you are sin free and able not to choose it and don't believe that you will sin in the future... until it happens again then you repent and are now sin free and are able to live sinlessly thereafter until you sin again and then you are now free again and able to choose not to sin at all in the future... that is until you sin again and once again you repent and now you are free of that sin and know that you can surely stop it for good until you sin again then repent of that sin and are now free to move forward completely able to not sin until again you sin then repent and know that you are forgiven and clean and can now live righteously as you are still capable of not sinning until you sin again then repent because you don't love sin which is why you repent and are now given a clean slate until you sin again and then repent because you hate sin (as every born again christian should) and now can stop sinning from this point on until you sin again and I think you get the point.

So where's the end of it logic? Is this your definition of 'to stop sinning'? Because like you said if you can't stop it then you can't repent. Do you think that if you were struck by lightning in the middle of the 'again' and have passed on before a chance to repent, that you will be going to hell??


 2009/10/23 12:34









 Re:

Leo and Travis... that is about as good as it gets guys. I'm going to copy and paste both of your posts and keep them on hand.

Logic I think I'll focus on what makes complete sense, what is spoken in the most sincere fashion, and in the truth of the Spirit. I would like to end our semantic bantering and I yeild to the one's who can discuss an issue in the patience and sincerity of these two men of God. Thanks.

 2009/10/23 12:44
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Perhaps we still have two natures in us after conversion. The Spirit and my spirit war with my sinful flesh. It is still all me but two different parts of me. I'm sure that some of you will find this in error or part of some prior heresy but the Scriptures seem to support the notion. My spirit cannot sin ( the divine nature born by the Spirit within me ) whereas my flesh ( the sinful nature ) which has not been yet fully defeated ( ie., the presence of sin) can and in fact does. I know this sounds psyhzofrenic.

 2009/10/23 12:50Profile
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Quote:

rbanks wrote:
Travis,

Great posting!!!

Leo,

The 1st chapter in 1john tells us as a Christian the importance of walking in the light continually so that we can be cleansed from all sin. It is talking about our growth in sanctification. Everyone who has been saved must be cleansed from our former lifestyle of sinning. We are to put off the old man and we are to be renewed in our minds in spiritual holiness.

Now let’s look at

1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


Notice in verse 5 where he says “he was manifested to take away our sins” and “in Him is no sin” showing us that we need him to take away our sins. He did not say that we have no sin because back in chapter one he clearly told us if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves. We must abide in him in order not to continue to commit sins. The “eth” word means continually. We who have been truly born of God and abiding in Him cannot willfully practice sin. No true Christian who loves God and walking in fellowship will continue to practice sin but because sin as part of our nature before we were saved and because we are still human and have not receive our glorified bodies, we will still fall short of the glory of God. We will confess it and be cleansed by the blood of Jesus as we continue to walk in the light. We will not be willfully committing sins nor continuing to practice sin because the seed (the nature of Christ) cannot sin. The more His nature controls our lifestyle the less we will fall short of his glory. Perfection is the goal Christ has for all of us, but complete perfection will be obtainable only in that glorified body.

The problem with Logic is that he denies the sin nature and therefore does not believe he has one. So he thinks he doesn’t sin because sin is only a choice. Then he goes on to say that he only sins every so often and so by his own doctrinal belief of being able not to sin and then sinning every once in a while, he is saying that he is not born of God. The scripture says that the born of God do not commit sin and Logic says that he does commit sin every once in a while. A man like Logic who claims that he has the power not to sin, because he doesn’t have, neither was born with a sin nature, but then decides he will sin once a month makes me wonder why he would want to sin at all. Myself I know I inherited a sin nature from Adam but thank God for the new nature I received from Christ and I don’t want to commit a sin ever, not once a month, neither one time in all of eternity. Since I have been born of God I have received a nature that does not commit sin. As long as I abide in Christ I will never desire to commit sin but if I fail to abide continually in Christ and allow that other nature to rise up instead of remaining crucified I could easily sin and will need to confess to God for cleansing through the blood of Christ and thank God for his mercy. Our focus should not be on self but Christ. We should not be thinking after the flesh but the after the Spirit where there is life and peace, then the Holy Spirit will convict us of any sin to confess and be cleansed from. We are to be dead to sin and self but alive to God. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from our sins but the cross crucifies our sinful nature. We must believe that we were crucified with Christ in order for the old man (our sinful nature) and his deeds to be destroyed.

Blessings to all!


I agree totally with this. Thank you.

 2009/10/23 12:53Profile





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