| my dear brother|
Jesus said this:
35And he said to them, "When I sent you out with no moneybag or knapsack or sandals, did you lack anything?" They said, "Nothing." 36He said to them, "But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. 37For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors.' For what is written about me has its fulfillment." 38And they said, "Look, Lord, here are two swords." And he said to them, "It is enough."
Why do you think Jesus said that? What did He mean?
as far as weapons are concerned, they are not toys, or playthings, or stuff to have around to prove how macho you are. You always should have them stowed away, safely. Anybody who removes a weapon to just brandish it to "frighten" away an aggressor, or some hellish son of the dark, bent on murder and mayhem, to take out a weapon and just brandish it is foolish and ill-advised, the second that "sword" or rifle, or pistol comes out, in a defensive posture, your heart and mind must be clear, that you will use it.
and its my belief that you must confer with the Lord, on such a potential situation, PRIOR to any type of event like this, and if given release, act with a sober and merciful heart.
But what a fell and grievous day that would be, horrific, taking life. That is why possession of weaponry is a very very serious consideration, as is the act of war.
| 2009/10/15 10:00|
I've heard of this very scenario quite a few times, rural vacation cabin, or home, sometimes well appointed........lights go out, cut, phone has been cut, next thing the door is stove in, home invasion in progress.
The law enforcement officer was correct, although being "lucky" and being blessed are very very different.
Thank God, just your voice dissauded this hellhound from his appointed rounds.
You asked "right or wrong"...and I'm sure you know the law, once a home invasion is underway, you may use lethal force. Thank God He was with you, Praise His Name.
| 2009/10/15 10:07|
| Re: dab|
I hope that everyone realizes by now that we all have a deep responsibility to protect and care for those whom God has placed under our authority - wife and family. We also have a responsibility to protect and care for our neighbors, whom we love above ourselves, if the opportunity arises.
How to go about this is another question - it will change from one situation to another. Only God knows whether force will be needed or not, and it would be unwise for any of us to try to nail down a specific doctrine to cover all possibilities.
It should be enough for us to know that God will be there for us, and as along as we keep our hearts and our minds on Him, He will lead us to take the correct course of action, as so many testimonies in this thread have shown. Force or no force doesn't really matter as long as we are attuned to God's Spirit and ready to act as He leads us.
| 2009/10/15 11:50||Profile|
| Re: |
"It should be enough for us to know that God will be there for us, and as along as we keep our hearts and our minds on Him, He will lead us to take the correct course of action"
| 2009/10/15 12:01|
| Re: |
Let me say that I am very pleased with the wonderful responses in this thread. Thank you all for your desire to seek to please the Lord and do what is right.
What really seem to be the issue is for me killing is sin, but if not always, then is this true of other things as well?
Ah...but "killing" in every sense is not sin. Thou shalt not kill speaks of murder. If all "killing" was sin, why does the law of Moses over and over command the stoning and putting to death of offenders?
So I think we can assume that it is murder that is sin.
So the question is, is it murder to kill someone in defense of your family?
I have read the posts seeming to say that you always can maim the offender rather than kill them. But this is just not true. If you've got a gun and they've got a gun. Their gun is pointed at your family and yours is pointed at the guy, you had better aim for the heart. Why would you gamble with your family's lives?
| 2009/10/15 14:37|
| Re: |
John MacArthur touches on this issue breifly in the book "The Truth War"... I thought this was important to add to this discussion:
[i]"... this is not to suggest that the use of force is forbidden for individual Christians acting lawfully in self-defense or in defending their families against criminal or military aggression. Physical resistance in such cases is [b]nowhere forbidden[/b] in the Bible. The turn-the-other-cheek principle of Matthew 5:39-40 pertains to personal insults and acts of persecution for Christ's sake, not all types of criminal assault. In normal cases where a person is resisting unlawful threats to property or life and limb, the use of force in proper measure is perfectly lawful by Biblical principles - Nehemiah 4:14. Of course, believers who are policemen, soldiers, or otherwise agents duly authorized by the government must be willing to use deadly force when necessary as part of their duty to the civil government. [b]Scripture nowhere endorses any kind of absolute pacifism.[/b]"[/i]
| 2009/10/16 6:37|
| Re: |
"The turn-the-other-cheek principle of Matthew 5:39-40 pertains to personal insults" krispy
And much violated on this thread.
MacArthur has never been shy about his viewpoints. I saw Macarthur on CNN one time with another guy debating 'war' four or so years ago. Of course CNN did a great job of using both men to disparage the image of Christianity. It was a useless debate... tit for tat biblical counterpoints not unlike it can get here, and obviously nothing was resolved. I was a little disappointed that MacArthur took a bait usually reserved for a Dobson or Falwell. Some probably thought it refreshing to see someone other than the usual moral majority contingent but I thought it was a bad move for him. I coulndn't see a Poonen, Wilkerson, Conlon, Cymbala, or a Washer (DESPITE their stance on the issues) stepping out into a minefield like a CNN venue for a debate like this. It was subtly spun as conservative biblical interpretation versus a liberal one and CNN seemed to play on the disagreements of both men to make a statement that Christianity is very very confused and unstable. The political undertones seemed obvious to me especially given the incendiary circumstances of that particular timeframe.
I like MacArthur, read some of his books, but he is more insistent and opinionated in his theologies than many that I consider to be outside of the mainstream church. One book was called 12 Ordinary Men and was pretty good (as usually his books are) but there was one part of the book where, out of nowhere and in parenthesis, he made a reference justifying capital punishment. It had nothing to do at all with the premise of the book which was about the transformation of the disciples. But MacArthur used the phrase "those who live by the sword will die by the sword" in the book as a justification for "a divine sanction for capital punishment" (my paraphrase). Whether the reader agreed with him or not on this particular stance (those who have seen and talked to perpatrators that maliciously violate children have a penchant for seeing them gone for good, but I try not to let my anger get to the point of 'unyeilding') didn't really matter to me, it came across as very opinionated, especially given that it was overtly outside of the focus of the book. Since this time, I still read MacArthur but I read him with both eyes wide open.
| 2009/10/16 7:42|
| Re: |
Actually MacArthur has stated that he learned from his mistake of being on CNN, and refuses to participate in anything like that now.
| 2009/10/19 8:08|
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I think if you check out the other thread right now on Catholicism, you will see where Orthodox is coming from. Orthodox started this thread with the title "Will you defend your family against attack or let them be killed."
As soon as I saw that title I knew in my heart that it was a fear based question.
2Ti 1:7 For God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.
1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has torment. He who fears has not been perfected in love.
Now I have a scenario to present. It is not a "what if," scenario, for this is a true event from my life. When I was seven, my mother and father had been married for ten years. My father was a alcoholic. He was a plumber in the shipyards and we lived in a apartment in a high rise or tenement as we would call it. Five of us in a one bedroomed apartment, not that unusual in the world that I came from. My father was a Catholic and my mother was a "Protestant," which in our world meant anything that was not Catholic. My father was a violent man, but not domestically. He never hit his wife or his children, his violence was for the streets and the pubs. One night my mother arrived home and announced that she had "found Jesus." She had been born again. As a Catholic boy I knew about Jesus. I knew about him as I knew about any other historical figure. I believed that Jesus was the Son of God. I believed that He died for our sins, I believed it all. Yet, my mother was claiming that she actually "knew," Him which was an incredible claim. Her whole life changed. She immediately quite smoking and no longer had to take valium.
I was facinated by her conversion. My dad however, fell of the deep end. He detested what she had become, and within a short period of time our house expolded with violence. Its important to note that they had been married for ten years and never any violnce. Well, she suffered many black eyes and a broken jaw and so on over the years. And since I loved the things of God, I also incurred the wrath of my father. Not physically, but emmotionally. He only ever called me "idiot," or "stupid," and so on. I longed to hear my name on his lips, but it was not to be. This went on for years. He even nailed out front door shut with six inch nails trying to get my mom not to go to church. The Bible had to be hid in the house. She would sneak it our when he was not home. When he nailed the door we lowered her out of the window so that she could go to church. He super-glued the lock of the door of her little church once. He plotted to blow it up. He would come home and get his children out of bed and we had to sit there and eventually witness the inevitable violence that would come. Many times he would put a knife in my hand and try and get me to stab him. He was trying to make "a man," out of me. Yet in this there was a stratedgy of the devil that would play out.
All along my mother taught her children to love and respect our father. She said that it was a bttle between good and evil and that God loved my dad and wanted him saved. One night, when I was about 12, there was a culmination. This night was very different from other nights. There was an "atmosphere," almost like an unseen fog that you could cut through, it was like the air had substance. My father was drunk, he had my mother by the back of the hair and was pummeling her. He was crying one minute and the next he would be laughing hysterically, all the time having her by the back of the hair and punching her face. She just kept repeating "Jesus loves you," and it only seemed to enrage him more. My sister was in the corner of the room, screaming hysterically and I was standing irectly behind him, frozen with fear. Here was a man, killing the woman that I loved more than anyone else in the world. To my right was the countertop with a knife sitting on it, as it always was. Now the title of this post is
"Will you defend your family against attack or let them be killed."
So my question to all of those who have expressed strong opinions on this, what would you have me do in this situation, given the logic that you have put forth? And also, what do you think the results of my actions that night achieved? There is a wisdom that is common to man, hence the name. It is earthly and sensual and does not come down from the Father of lights.
I await your advice..........Frank
| 2009/10/19 11:31|
| Re: |
Your mother was being persecuted for her faith... in this instance the Bible is clear, turn the other cheek.
I also believe the Bible gave her the option of leaving for her own safety with the children. There is nothing unscriptural about a woman escaping a situation like this for her safety and that of her children. The husband is breaking his wedding vows as much as if he committed adultry. (Please note that I have not used the word "divorce")
Either situation would be lawful under God's Word. Stay and bear it or flee for safety.
It's like the church in China. They can either stand in the public square and be persecuted or huddle in a cave and worship in the hidden places. Either situation is perfectly lawful in scripture, and either situation can be used mightly by God. It depends on the leading of the Holy Spirit.
This was not a random criminal act... this was persecution. He wasn't beating your mother, he was beating Christ.
| 2009/10/19 11:50|