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 Re:

Quote:
"I would just pray while this man has his way with my family!" Sure you would. And if you really did then you deserve to share a jail cell with the criminal.



Amen.

 2009/10/14 14:09
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

Perhaps some of you may recall that a year and a half ago I was mugged by three men. They were throwing punches before I even had a chance to offer my possessions without a fight. Previously I had been in many fights and even felt comfortable drawing a blade; after my conversion I was inspired by Jim Ellliot's words, "I'm ready for death, they aren't," and determined that if it was about defending myself I would not fight.

Well, my hand went for my utility knife and just as suddenly I recalled my desire to be a witness of grace. I said a one-word prayer ("Lord") and shouted, "stop, wait!" They stopped. I said, "I'll give you my stuff, but I won't fight you. I have something important I must tell you." One of them asked what was in my pocket. I took out my knife and handed it to him, saying, "this was a wedding gift and I'm giving it to you willingly. There's something I must tell you." He said, "I can't take that man," and gave it back!

Long story short, they took my .mp3 bible (with Rolfe Barnard sermons on it, titled "the God of the Bible kills people!") but fled when I tried to witness to them of the gospel. I was physically trying to hand one of them an expensive piece of electronics if he would just let me tell my story but he refused! So I just shouted the truth as they ran.

Eight months later the one who stole my .mp3 player found me (at the same spot on my bike commute) and asked for forgiveness, offering a nice iPod for what he had stolen. He told me that after that event his life changed, he wanted to be a good person now. He gave up drugs, crime, and was set to be a minor-league baseball player. I told him, "friend, you'll be the best person in hell, unless you have Christ's righteousness counted to you by faith." He went away sober, and I haven't seen him since.

All of this is to say that I have been in such "hypothetical situations." I was free to be gracious with my life.

Yet, I would still feel within my biblical freedoms to use force in restraining or ending an evil doer, for the very fact that it falls in the sphere of governmental authority God has bestowed upon man. Rom 13, the sword is not given in vain and it is a ministry given by God.

I do not think it is sin to be a police officer, nor do I count it a lack of faith for police officers to use guns and handcuffs instead of merely praying that God invisibly restrains each foe. David wrote, "some trust in horses, others in chariots, but as for me, I trust in the Lord God." This same David used many weapons - but his trust was in God to work through their ordinary use.

If I defend a person with force, it is with faith in God to deliver the criminal into the hands of judgment in whatever way God determines. I will use the ordinary means, starting at the least violent; it is for God to exert extraordinary means.

Just my two cents.

For the whole story of my mugging, you can go to my blog and search "mugged" in the search bar.

 2009/10/14 16:52Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7497
Mississippi

 Re:

MaryJane,

This is dreadful how the devil has used others to hurt you so....I have never been molested by anyone so in one sense I cannot relate but God is bigger then me or any counselor or law officer or parent...

When ever something bad happens I often times note how it could have been much worse then it was. Can you understand this mentality?

Consider - this molester could have killed someone, but it did not happen, did it? God allowed you to witness evil and can you look at this with the eyes that God does and see what He sees? Can you see how God did protect you all and praise Him for that? I suspect we are all protected from so much more evil then we ever realize.

MaryJane, I would encourage you to listen to the sermon Christian recommended: "If you faced Death right now" by Keith Daniel. He recommended you listen to the first 15 minutes, I suggest you listen to the entire sermon. It is that powerful.

Blessings,
ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2009/10/14 17:55Profile









 Re:

Mary Jane, as much as I've seen this you are right about not always being a stranger. I would say half or more are someone in the family and even more than this someone they knew and many times trusted. I got out of it because the system protected the criminal more than the victim. And the politics of it all was just ridiculous. It sometimes revictimized the victim. I tried to put as many of them away as possible. And although we treated children who violate children a little differently, it's still a rough way to go for those involved. Some actually blame the parents for not protecting them as they should and that's a normal response. I hope this isn't the case with you but it happens. Well, I don't want to keep this rolling on my end but I would be more than happy to discuss anything you might want via PM. My prayers are with you sister MJ.

 2009/10/14 18:11









 Re:

Hi Maryjane

"I have been reading these threads for the past few weeks and I will admit that I am beginning to stumble because of them. In all honesty I have started having nightmares and am feeling fearful over thoughts of "what if" scenarios."

Maryjane, I am positive that you are not the only one. The "what if," people are not about the Lord's work. The Lord commands us, not suggests, that we be "anxious for nothing but in everything by prayer and supplication and thanksgiving make our requests known to God. And the peace of God that surpasses understanding will guard your heart and mind through Christ Jesus. The "what if," brigade are not about the Masters work.

I come from a violent background and a violent world Maryjane. I came to Christ at 26. In my 19 years of Christianity I have met many frightened little men. And the more frightened they are on the inside, the bigger the noise they make on the outside. There has been a lot of noise on these threads but you rest upon the Word of God and think on those things.

Php 4:8 Finally, my brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are honest, whatever things are right, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report; if there is any virtue and if there is any praise, think on these things.

There has been a lot of talk on these threads about protecting women and yet Maryjane's mind is assualted by the "what if the devil does this to you," or what if the devil does that to you," people..........hmmmmm.

"Thank you Ginnyrose for reminding me that it is vital that we keep our focus on the Lord and have faith and trust in Him."

Amen to that sister. He is your peace in the night. When all hell breaks loose, He is the one that calms the storms, whether the physical storms or the storms of the mind, we shall stay in perfect peace whose eyes is on the Lord.

 2009/10/14 22:38









 Re:

Since everyone posting here is still alive, I will make some assumptions.

I will assume that most people here:

...lock the doors of their houses at night.
...would carry either a gun or pepper spray in the wilderness where bears and cougars are present.
...will not walk in certain areas at certain times of the night.
...will have taught their children not to talk to strangers.
...have been to a doctor.
...actually have or have had jobs at one time or another.
...actually have somewhere to sleep at night that is protected from the elements.
...have actually eaten food some time in their life.


Each of these are forms of resistance of ills or death. You don’t just leave the doors wide open and say, “Lord protect me”, you don’t just refuse to eat food and say, “Lord feed me” etc.... There is much talk of just trust the Lord, but trust of the Lord includes the idea that he gave us enough sense to carry pepper spray where bears are present, and other such things.

You are to take care of the things you can trusting that the Lord will work out the rest. There can be just as much resistance to death in the prayers of, “Lord protect me” or “Lord help my gun not to misfire”. Those who sit back and simply say, “the Lord will protect me” remind me of the story of the guy in the flood who was sent the canoe, the boat and the helicopter, but refused them saying he is waiting for the Lord to rescue him.

The Lord uses human means. Sometimes someone else does it on your behalf, other times it is up to you to have the courage. In MJ’s account, the kids had courage to resist and were thereby protected by the Lord through that resistance. Other times, like the boy with the rifle, it was taken care of in another manner. In each case, the Lord provided the protection.

 2009/10/14 23:27
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4529


 Re:

Hi Frank,

Quote:
The "what if," people are not about the Lord's work.

I feel that this is an unreasonable comment to make. First of all, Jesus himself was the first one to bring up the possibility of such a scenario. In fact, in Matthew 5:40, the Lord even uses the word “[i]if[/i].” In the NIV and several other versions, the word “if” is used several times within this particular passage to show that Jesus was speaking about hypothetical situations that his listeners could experience. We certainly would agree that Jesus was “about the Lord’s work” (Luke 2:49). In fact, the Word is filled with instruction to believers about situations that we might encounter in our lives.

In addition, the many “non-resistance” threads that have been created over the years have also mentioned various hypothetical scenarios. However, they point to a different range of solutions for such possible situations. Indeed, I think that I can remember far more threads that introduced certain hypothetical situations which suggest an embrace of a particular “non-resistance” view. In many of these threads, an overview of “non-resistance” is discussed at length, but the extent in regard to its application is not discussed at length (particularly, when, where and how to apply this concept in real life).

Moreover, as some have pointed out, these are NOT merely hypothetical scenarios for many people. I have been in a situation where I felt that I needed to defend an elderly woman. Others have spoken in regard to situations that they have encountered that confirm the value of such a discussion. I think that many married men and fathers feel that they are in daily situations where they could be called upon to physically protect a wife, a child, a family member or even someone else during such a situation.

Now, this isn’t a “fear” issue – no matter how broadly someone wants to paint it. As believers, what should we fear? The worst that the devil could do to us is kill our bodies! So what? To live is Christ and to die is gain (Philippians 1:21)! The best thing that will ever happen to a believer is to breathe our last breath! To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (II Corinthians 5:8)! Thus, this discussion is not meant to invoke fear (at least on my part), but contemplation.
Quote:
There has been a lot of talk on these threads about protecting women and yet Maryjane's mind is assualted by the "what if the devil does this to you," or what if the devil does that to you," people..........hmmmmm.


Yet the same thing could be said about many different discussions here on SermonIndex – including the possibility of “non-resistance” scenarios. What about discussions regarding the timing of the Rapture/Great Tribulation/Wrath of God? What about questions of “eternal security?” What about spiritual warfare? What about the coming persecution? What about the physical persecution of believers that already exists in nations that might have access to this website? These issues could raise fear in some believers, but they shouldn’t. We serve an Eternal King who created the heavens and the Earth! We should not be given to a spirit of fear. Still, the possibility of certain discussions causing some believers to be fearful doesn’t make those very topics off limits. They can still be discussed within the context of Scripture while we make every effort to encourage others to remain “strong and courageous.”

I do, however, agree with Krispy that these sorts of threads can often lead to unhealthy debate. One brother (or group) can often become pitted against another in terms of the exact extent of the solution, while others can haughtily proclaim their own views as if they are undoubtedly God’s in the matter. Thus, they feel that there is no need for discussion when they see this issue as “clear” in their own eyes. So, on this ground, I agree that we must be careful within such discussions to avoid even the appearance of vanity or spiritual arrogance.

I believe that God can protect His children from an evil attack. I have heard wonderful testimonies of this! I know that the Lord can provide supernatural protection from such things. At other times, the Lord can use an instrument to help protect someone. I believe that this protection can come in the form of a police officer, a fire fighter and even a good husband or father. Yet, even if that protection never came – we are still a child of the King of Kings! This world is so…temporary. My heart, like all of those who love the Lord, longs to see the face of our God. It is the underlying aching of our hearts! Yet, for the time being, there is still a work for us to complete in this world. We also have certain duties, including “providing for our own” (I Timothy 5:8).

Sister MaryJane, let me encourage you to remain strong in the Lord! There is no fear that should overtake us…because we are children of the King. He created the entire universe – and each of us is at the center of His thoughts! He knows how to take care of us. There is nothing in all of creation that we need to fear, dear sister! We can say with the three Hebrew young men in Babylon that God is able to deliver us from any fiery furnace! Yet, even if He did not, we still have an eternal hope (Daniel 3:17-18)! For us, even death has lost its sting! In fact, death is merely a promotion to the point that we can finally see the face of our God! I have prayed for you tonight. I pray that you are not fearful from this sort of discussion, but that you realize the power of the Holy Spirit dwells within you. Be encouraged that you rest firmly in the hand of He who knows the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10)! Be encouraged, dear sister, for you belong to the Lord of all Creation!

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2009/10/15 0:12Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

I am thankful for what you all have shared, some of it has been very upbuilding, I do agree we should do what we could to protect our entrusted and beloved ones. But what i have not come to peace with is that of killing another person. To me it is sin, yet i would say to stand and watch my wife and children being killed or violated would also be sin.

So something sure is needed to be done in such a situation, but what seem to me dont fit is if to kill a man in such a situation is not wrong, in another case it is sin. Are there other situations where sin would be right?

Let say as i said before and no one addressed that, if my family starves and the risk for death is days away, would the right thing for a real man to steal in order to save his families life?

I think of when the days come when no one will be able to buy or sell without a mark on their hand or forehead. I know different opinions on what that means exactly, but suppose that means just what it says, will it not be sin in those days to steal to feed my family?

What really seem to be the issue is for me killing is sin, but if not always, then is this true of other things as well?

if my children need winter clothes and i cant afford to buy one, since the threat of sickness and freezing to death would a real man steal one in order to protect his childs life?

Now i agree he would do something, i would but when it comes down to it and there where no other option, when we reach a certain point of threat, do we have the right to do what ever nessacarry to help those that are entrusted to us? yes have many said, mysef are doubtful to whatever, something yes but whatever? not sure. I see then the same principle must be for food , clothing, and medicine etc. If my child gets sick, so sick I cant pay the hospital bill, if i dont rob a bank dont i love my child? if there are no other options?

I dont want to rob the bank, its not for my benefit, its for the protection of those God has entrusted me with. Would that be right?

i know these are the same "what if" scenarios. But I would be grateful for your thoughts on this, or is this only valid in the case of someone breaking into our house? and if so how do we know that?


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2009/10/15 1:58Profile









 Re:

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:
Let say as i said before and no one addressed that, if my family starves and the risk for death is days away, would the right thing for a real man to steal in order to save his families life?

I think of when the days come when no one will be able to buy or sell without a mark on their hand or forehead. I know different opinions on what that means exactly, but suppose that means just what it says, will it not be sin in those days to steal to feed my family?

What really seem to be the issue is for me killing is sin, but if not always, then is this true of other things as well?

if my children need winter clothes and i cant afford to buy one, since the threat of sickness and freezing to death would a real man steal one in order to protect his childs life?

Now i agree he would do something, i would but when it comes down to it and there where no other option, when we reach a certain point of threat, do we have the right to do what ever nessacarry to help those that are entrusted to us? yes have many said, mysef are doubtful to whatever, something yes but whatever? not sure. I see then the same principle must be for food , clothing, and medicine etc. If my child gets sick, so sick I cant pay the hospital bill, if i dont rob a bank dont i love my child? if there are no other options?

I dont want to rob the bank, its not for my benefit, its for the protection of those God has entrusted me with. Would that be right?

i know these are the same "what if" scenarios. But I would be grateful for your thoughts on this, or is this only valid in the case of someone breaking into our house? and if so how do we know that?



Here is your answer regarding stealing.

[i]Prov 6:30-31 Men do not despise a thief, if he steal to satisfy his soul when he is hungry; But if he be found, he shall restore sevenfold; he shall give all the substance of his house.[/i]

If a man and his family has gotten to that point through rejection of the Lord, he will often be found out and be forced to pay for his crime. If a man has gotten to that point in trusting the Lord, a way will often be made for him to eat that which is not lawful without retribution (whether stolen or some other thing) just as David did with the shewbread.

Lying was included in Rahab the Harlot's great act of faith.

[i]James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Heb 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.[/i]


And then there are the others who were commended for like deeds requiring faith that would be considered sin by many here.

[i]Heb 11:32-34 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.[/i]


BTW The Bible is full of 'what-if' scenarios, just do a search on 'if a man'.


EDIT: I forgot to add Moses as well!

[i]Acts 7:22-25 And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds. And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel. [b]And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he defended him, and avenged him that was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian: For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not.[/b][/i]

 2009/10/15 8:50
dab
Member



Joined: 2008/8/8
Posts: 50
Kentucky

 Re:

First, the testimony:

Five years ago, my wife and I were vacationing at a cabin near Gatlinburg. Our first night there, there was a terrible storm, trees downed and tornado watches, etc. At about 1:30 AM, Peg awoke by some sounds, noticed that the electric seemed to be off. She woke me, and I heard sounds also, suspecting some critter had made its way to the trash can on the porch. When I got up to investigate, the electric was off, indeed, and I went to the kitchen door to look at what was scavenging. There was an intruder with a long box under his arm approaching the door. I tried the porch light switch - didn't work. Peg picked up the phone, it was dead. I put my hand on the doorknob, prepared to open the door and scold this disturber - in my soul I heard, "Don't open the door." I pecked on the window glass and shouted, "What do you want?!" a couple of times. The man hesitated a moment, turned and walked off the porch - we heard a car start and drive away. Mercifully, our cell phone did work, and we called the police, and began to pack our bags in the dark, by the light of our cell phone. Twenty minutes or so, the officer came, took our information. I asked if we could use his flashlight to finish getting our things together, and accompanied him to his squad car. He got his light, and shined it to the corner of the cabin (outside), where the electric box and phone box were both open. The officer discovered that it was not the storm that had caused the electric and phone outage. He then looked at Peg and myself as if he were seeing people who should be dead, and emotionally commented on how "lucky" we were to be alive.

I have often thought of the "what ifs" regarding this. I have no doubt that I would have fought to protect my wife, and probably would have done so to defend my own skin. I don't know if that would be right or wrong. I know that God whispered His direction to me, and that He kept us. Will He not like a Shepherd lead us?


_________________
David

 2009/10/15 9:38Profile





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