SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
See Opportunities to Serve with SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What doctrines are essential for salvation and which aren't?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 Next Page )
PosterThread









 Re: 6 days or 6 zillion trillion days




A challenge to Lysa:

[b]The question is: Do you believe what Jesus said? Are we really “believers” if we do not believe what Christ had to say about Himself throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament?[/b]

[b]How can we truly be “believers” if we discard Jesus Christ as the Creator God, who spoke everything into existence out of nothing, over a six literal 24 hour day period?[/b]

[b]Did Jesus clearly state that the Earth was created in six ordinary (24 hour) days? If so, do you believe Jesus?[/b]

[b]1. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female [/b](Mark 10:6).This makes it clear that Jesus taught the creation was young, for Adam and Eve existed ‘from the beginning ’–not billions of years after the universe and Earth came into existence.

[b]2. Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?? (John 5:45-47).[color=990000] In this passage, Jesus makes it clear that one must believe what Moses wrote. And one of the passages in the writings of Moses in Exodus 20:11 states: For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. This, of course, is the basis of our seven-day week –six days work and one day rest. Obviously, this passage was meant to be taken as speaking of a total of seven literal days based on the Creation week of six literal days of work and one literal day of rest.[/color][/b]

In fact, in Luke 13:14, in his response to Jesus healing a person on the Sabbath, the ruler of the synagogue, who knew the law of Moses, obviously referred to this passage when he said,[b] And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, [u]There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day[/u][/b].[color=990000][b] The Sabbath day here was considered an ordinary day, and the six days of work were considered ordinary days. This teaching is based on the law of Moses as recorded in Exodus 20,where we find the Ten Commandments –the six- day Creation week being a basis for the Fourth Commandment.[/color][/b]

There are many more passages that imply that Jesus taught that He created in six days, but are there any explicit passages?

What does the Old Testament have to say about this issue? After all, Jesus is the second person of the Godhead, and has always existed.

First, Colossians makes it clear that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was the one who created all things: [b]For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.[/b] (Colossians 1:16-17).

We are also told elsewhere in Scripture HOW Jesus created:[b] By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth....... 9. For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.[/b] (Psalm 33:6,9).

[b]As well as this, we know that Jesus is in fact called “the Word “: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made..
(John 1:1-3).[/b]

So Jesus, who is the Word, created everthing by speaking everything into existence.

Now, consider Exodus 20:1: And God spoke all these words, saying…. Because Jesus is the Word, this must be a reference to the preincarnate Christ speaking to Moses. As we know, there are a number of appearances of Christ (‘theophanies ’) in the Old Testament.

John 1:18 states: No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. There is no doubt, with rare exception, that the preincarnate Christ did the speaking to Adam, Noah, the patriarchs, Moses etc.

[color=990000][b]Now, when the Creator God spoke as recorded in Exodus 20:1, what did He (Jesus) say? As we read on, we find this statement: For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day ….

Yes, Jesus did explicitly say He created in six days. Not only this, but the one who spoke the words ‘six days ’ also wrote them down for Moses: Then the LORD delivered to me two tablets of stone written with the finger of God, and on them were all the words which the LORD had spoken to you on the mountain from the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly (Deuteronomy 9:10).

Jesus said clearly: He created in six days! And He even did something He didn’t do with most of Scripture –He wrote it down Himself. How more authoritative can you get than that?[/color][/b]

What will your answer be, Lysa?

Sincerely,

Walter


Quote:

Lysa wrote:
A challenge:

What doctrine is required for salvation? Could it possibly be as simple as this...?

Then he said, And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come in your Kingdom." [b]"I tell you in solemn truth," replied Jesus, "that this very day you shall be with me in Paradise."[/b]
Luke 23.42-43

God bless,

 2009/10/9 22:25
anonymity
Member



Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Joe,

Yes, that is right I do not reject the Godhood ect only the distinct personhood and the eternal Sonship doctrines.

As for your prophetic verse of the Son they are exactly that they are prophetic in speaking of futurehood in that the Son shall later be.

As for when Jesus talks to the Father you have to understand this. That unlike the Father and the Holy Spirit Jesus is dual natured. In that He is God but has taken on human nature. So, you have to discern if He is speaking from His humanity or His divinity. When He says the Father is greater He is speaking from His humanity for He as the Word of God is not inferior. Or when He talks to Him as Father He is talking from His Sonship or His humanity. When however He says if you have seen me you have seen the Father or I and the Father are one He is speaking from His Divinity.

 2009/10/9 22:29Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

You don't have to teach me what Trinitarian doctrine is I was brought up in it for years.



:-)

Quote:

I however believe that God is one person with 3 functions as one God.



The doctrine of the Trinity teaches that each Divine person has a specific "redemptive role" to play. Each member co-operates with the other in this role, and sometimes, these roles or functions can be hard to slice into neat theological categories. This can be demonstrated in a number of ways. Off the top of my head, we see clearly that the Father sends the Son, and the Son sends the Spirit. Never do we read of the Son or the Spirit sending the Father. Thus, though co-eternal and equally God, each member of the Trinity has differing functions.

Quote:

I do not believe He has always existed as Son or as Jesus.



The person of Jesus Christ as born in a manger 2,000 years ago, of course, has not always existed. However, the second person of the Trinity, the Son/Word/Logos of God, has. Jesus Christ, the person, is the incarnational embodiment of the second person of the Trinity. There has always been a Father and Son relationship between the two. For the Son, from eternity past, has his origin in the Father. That is why the Father has always been the Father. He could not be the Father if there weren't always a Son.

Indeed, Jesus asserted that this Father and Son relationship existed before the incarnation on numerous occasions. I quoted John 1:18 previously, about the "only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father" to demonstrate this eternal Father/Son relationship. Jesus also once said, "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." (John 17:24)

"Begotten" doesn't merely denote the incarnational relationship that came into existence 2,000 years ago. It shows the relationship that has always existed between the members of the Trinity from all eternity. Their Divine relationship has always existed, and will always exist in the same manner. The Father/Son relationship did not come into existence 2,000 years ago. The Father has always been the Father, and the Son the Son.

Thus, in the incarnation, God "[sent] His Son" (John 3:17) He was the Son from all eternity, He who was sent. In fact, in one of the classic passages that prove the Divinity of Christ, in John 8, it is because Jesus asserted His eternal Sonship in relation to the Father that the Pharisees were ready to stone Him.

"I speak the things which I have seen with my Father" (v. 38)

"Jesus said to them, 'If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.'" (v. 42)

"Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." (v. 58)

In this context, Christ appeals to His divine nature as to why He can say the things He says, and is the source of salvation. And in telling the crowds these things, He explains the eternal relationship He has always had with the Father as Son. He's clearly not limiting His usage of "Son" to that of His incarnation, but insists that He learned the things He's teaching from the Father, from having been with Him in all eternity. To try and limit the usage of the title of "Son" here to merely the incarnation is to create a false dichotomy.

Quote:

Again, I see no evidence of "eternal" begotteness but as it says "today" I have begotten repeatedly.



Again, John 1:18 says the "only begotten God." Not the "only begotten Son", but "God." Functionally speaking, this is why the second person of the Godhead was made incarnate, and not the Father or the Spirit. Because it is the Son who "proceeds from the Father," not only in the incarnation, but also in all eternity.

Quote:

I believe this is a passed down creed from an institution that was falsified namely through Rome and the Protestants that needs to be ridden of and the true doctrine recovered from Scripture and the Apostles.



Well, I have studied the creeds, some of which I have believed, and some of which I personally reject. I have attended institutions, but, I have no loyalty whatsoever to any. So, it might be a doctrine that has been indeed passed down, but is something that is to be newly discovered with each successive generation.

I believe in the Trinity, not because of coercion from some institution, but because having studied the doctrine, I have seen it was indeed Scriptural. I could care less if other Protestants or Catholics before me believed it. The fact of the matter is, I believe it. I am happy to be in agreement with them on some points, even if in opposition on others :-) I didn't want to believe the doctrine of the Trinity, but the more I studied the Scriptures, the more I saw it was true. God saved me from the error of modalistic teaching, which I was so sure at one point was right.

I know you are not modalistic, or at least, don't appear to be such. In fact, I'm not sure I quite know which group to try and lump you into. Your view point almost sounds Arian, but, not quite. Oh well, it's no matter.

Just believe these things and you will do better :-)


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/10/9 23:07Profile
jlosinski
Member



Joined: 2006/9/11
Posts: 294
North Pole, Alaska

 Re:

Good word Jimmy,
Annomity, thanks for being willing to dialogue with us, I've truly enjoyed it. It's refreshing to be able to discuss ideas without mud slingling or getting defensive and pushy.
Joe

 2009/10/9 23:16Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Just a little "pastoral" reflection on some practicalities regarding the doctrine of the Trinity:

It's so important we understand the Trinity. Some teach other views in regard to God, but, if we truly have a relationship with God, our relationship is with a Triune being. We might not understand everything about that, and might be confused on some things, but if you are in a real relationship with the Lord, and rightly so, you will see this as clearly as a man understands he has only one wife. Because of this living reality, he doesn't need to be told otherwise. He knows it all too well, even if finding the right language to describe that relationship can be hard to come by.

The Trinity isn't merely a creed or doctrine to be debated, rather, it is the definition of an intimate relationship. An intimate relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, whom we are invited to join in fellowship with.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/10/9 23:43Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

By the way, there is a sermon on here Art Katz preached a long time ago on the Trinity. It was quite a good sermon. I forget the exact name of it though. It had either Trinity or Monotheism in the title. It's a very compact but deep message. And it was only about 30 minutes, which for Art Katz, is probably the shortest message you'll ever hear him speak :-)

Art shows how we must move beyond "mere monotheism," and far from seeing the doctrine of the Trinity as a stumbling block that needs to be removed so we might be more effective witnesses, Art shows that the Trinity when rightly understood will convey the greatest witness we as a Church can give, especially in regard to the Jew.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/10/10 0:00Profile
anonymity
Member



Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

I could respond and answer all the things given, but I just don't think it will go anywhere. I have heard these things before and thought of them, but there are answers to them. I am not sure if I were to prove it whether you would really be willing to believe it. I often hear things like well how can so many great preachers and the Church believe it for so long then. And, since based on things like that they really are not open to the idea of what I believe to be Scriptural. I cannot argue these things because they are not real facts and if doctrine is based on sentimentality or some ideology or train of thought philosophy there will be no furtherance.

I know that God functions in three ways through Himself, His Spirit, and His Word.

I know that we are to relate to God in 3 functioning ways. I often pray Jesus thank you for cleansing my sins, Holy Spirit fill me, Father open doors from your Throne ect.

I believe I have heard Katz sermon.

You have to understand when Jesus is speaking from His humanity and when from His Divinity.

God has always since He has created been a father in a sense since he gave birth or made things. Before He made things He was not a father. He was the father of man and of Israel ect. He was not specifically a father in the sense of a Son until Jesus was born as a human.

One cannot be eternally begotten. To be begotten/born one had to be born at some time. That would be similar to saying God was eternally created. There is no passage stating that Jesus was eternally begotten.

I can say boldly, with clear conscience, Scripture, non bias, reasonableness, ect that there is ABsolutely no Scripture evidence for teaching that God has 3 distinct personalities nor that the Word has eternally been the Son.

Really, though, I see no evidence not even close for what you are teaching. I could answer your questions one after another. It might take a little while and you may need to go over it since some things can be technical and foreign, yet in the end I am not sure you would even be open to it if it were Scriptural because you may have too many emotional biases.

 2009/10/10 0:14Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

I could answer your questions one after another. It might take a little while and you may need to go over it since some things can be technical and foreign, yet in the end I am not sure you would even be open to it if it were Scriptural because you may have too many emotional biases.



Feel free if you have more time. I'm more than willing to hear them. I'm quite convinced in what I believe, but, I've believed a lot of different things in my Christian life. Early on, I even denied that Jesus was God. I'm a pretty cool, calm and collective guy emotionally, and while I might definitely have emotional attachments to what I believe, I am willing to suspend those if I should ever be fully convinced otherwise. Personally speaking, I have no underlying reason or alternative motive in why I believe in the Trinity. I believe in the Trinity because I believe it is true, and having reached that conclusion after a careful examination of the Scriptures and study of the doctrinal controversies of the church, especially leading up to the council of Chalcedeon.

:-)


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/10/10 0:27Profile









 Re:

Anabaptist succession? That was hilarious. I'd LOVE to go down that road with you.

Paul (kepha/cephas) needed to confer with Peter to confirm his own orthodoxy before the whole church. Thus he wrote as proof of his orthodoxy "he added nothing to me."

So Paul didn't come out of nowhere.

 2009/10/10 1:49









 Re:

Quote:

Lysa wrote:
A challenge:

What doctrine is required for salvation? Could it possibly be as simple as this...?

Then he said, And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come in your Kingdom." [b]"I tell you in solemn truth," replied Jesus, "that this very day you shall be with me in Paradise."[/b]
Luke 23.42-43

God bless,



What doctrine is required for salvation? All of them! If you believe only 99% of the GOD'S WORD, you are claiming to be 1% smarter than GOD and He will be forced to correct this misapprehension on JUDGMENT DAY by throwing you into HELL. You must believe that God created the universe 6000 years ago and that the devil created galaxies billions of light years away in order to trick us into believing that the universe is billions of years old. He also put geological strata and dinosaur bones in the earth for the same purpose. You must also believe that the sun is God Mal. 4:2 and that He and the moon orbit around the earth Jos 10:13. It is not enough to believe in Jesus; you must also believe in Fundamentalist Bible Science, or you will fry.

 2009/10/10 11:26





©2002-2021 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy