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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Do Catholics believe they are saved by works?

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Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

orthodox,

You said:

Quote:
Quote: What your espousing as history, is CATHOLIC HISTORY, not the true and authentic history of the remnant church...[ which the Catholic and Orthodox church historically and vehemently persecuted unto death, and still does..]

Well if ignorance is bliss, you must be the happiest man alive. You can't even begin to show WHERE your heretic doctrines even WERE for the majority of Church history. How can you expect me to take you seriously?

Quote: I thank God that the standard of our faith is not rooted in "Apostolic succession", but in the Word of God, the Holy scriptures, which indeed DENY your doctrine of submission to your evil dogma.

Don't confuse the Sacred Scriptures with YOUR INTERPRETATION of them. If your interpretation of the Bible is wrong...your interpretation can hardly be called the Word of God.

Quote: No, Jesus is not "PRESENT IN THE EUCHARIST"; as you say, and it is but a superstitious magic show that imputes authority to the priests of Baal as they twist the elements [ the blood and body ] into their own power, and theirs alone. It is an abomination.

"This is my body." No magic there. But something highly sacred which you seem comfortable to blaspheme with the greatest of ease. Please show me just ONE early church father who believed your twisting of Scripture...

Quote: I don't know or care what the 7 "Holy" sacraments are

That's like saying: "I don't know or care what a doctor is...I want to talk to someone who can help get me well!"

Quote: My bible says that there is but ONE sacrifice for sins , and one MEDIATOR between God and man, the Lord Jesus. Any deviation from this pure truth is an ABOMONATION.

You're preaching to the converted.

Quote: This leads us to the doctrine of the divinity and ascension of Mary

Do your research before you embarrass yourself. No apostolic church believes in the "divinity" of Mary. That is heresy. We also do not believe in the "ascension" of Mary. You're making yourself look uneducated. You probably are...but don't worry...that can be fixed.

Quote: Because the Catholic Mary is none other than a Satanic being, the queen of demons, Jezebel herself...[ not to be confused with the biblical Mary, a good and honored sister, the mother of Jesus, and his several brothers also.] Faith in this demonic Mary is wicked, and surely an abomination in the sight of the Lord.

The Catholic Mary was the first Christian and first believer in Jesus Christ. To find out who she was you need to start at Gen. 3:15 Presumptuous they are...self willed...not afraid to speak evil of dignities... God have mercy on your soul.

Quote: As far as "discrediting the historical church," "to claim the true church's anointing as valid", that I indeed do, but it is the version of history that is espoused by the great whore herself, the Roman Catholic Church, that I discredit, and its many, many distortions and lies, both concerning "HISTORY", and it's present day authority.

It is the independently verifiable history born by Catholics, Orthodox, and secular sources alike. Sorry your conspiracy websites you frequent didn't fill you in. (not speaking of this website there) Nice dodge.



You speak as one who thinks he has authority, when in truth you have none. Your attitude and the tone of your posts clearly identify your nature, which is sinful. Your lofty presumptions impress no one except possibly the ignorant and the lost. You have the habit of hurling insults at others that eventually fall on your own head, for it is obvious that among those who have posted in this thread, you are the one without the Spirit of God in him. Your pride blinds you and keeps you from seeing what you really are.(edited)

Gal 5:19-23 The [b]acts of the sinful nature[/b] are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; [b]hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy[/b]; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

 2009/10/19 11:31Profile









 Re:



"Orthodox"

One thing that is consistent throughout the many, many posts of Orthodox, is that[color=990000][b] he never, ever responds to the Scripture that is presented to him, nor does he respond to world history, that refutes the Catholic "history" that he posts. Both the Bible Scripture, as well as world history refute EVERYTHING he continues to post.[/color][/b]

Please check out the following link—"A picture of the Catholic Jesus":


[url=http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/monstran.htm]A Picture of the Catholic Jesus[/url]

Also, check out this link- The Catholic Mary is A Devil

[url=http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/mary.htm]The Catholic Mary is a Devil[/url]

Check here to see Blasphemy at the lips of Mother Theresa:

[url=http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/mothther.htm]Blasphemy at the lips of Mother Theresa[/url]

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

orthodox wrote:
Quote:
Contrary to popular myth and lie, Timothy was not "a bishop" or "sr pastor," rather, he was a fellow apostle with Paul, who served as a mentor to him.



Even so. Let's assume for a moment that you are correct in your assumption that Timothy was not a mere bishop but an apostle.
DELETED


.

 2009/10/19 11:51









 Re:

-edit- post removed.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." waltern

I suggest then waltern that you demonstrate.... you're not exempt.

 2009/10/19 11:59









 Re: THEY WHICH ARE APPROVED.

amen Leo Grace


ROMANS 16


17. Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

18. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Leo Grace said;

orthodox,

"You speak as one who thinks he has authority, when in truth you have none. Your attitude and the tone of your posts clearly identify your nature, which is sinful. Your lofty presumptions impress no one except possibly the ignorant and the lost."

"You have the habit of hurling insults at others that eventually fall on your own head, for it is obvious that among those who have posted in this thread, you are the one without the Spirit of God in him. Your pride blinds you and keeps you from seeing what you really are."
..............................................

Well said, my brother. sometimes it is necessary to mark, when it is apparent that the wolf just wants to howl. As usual, there is no consideration to scriptural reason, or honor to sound doctrine, but hateful dogma to smear and attack.


This just further proves what we already know. The Roman Catholic church is the Largest and most deceitful CULT on the Earth, and is the home and tool of the DEVIL himself.


I must thank orthodox for his hearty confirmation of that....and brothers like you Leo Grace. Right on.


1 COR 11; 18-19

18. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

19. For there MUST be also heresies among you, that THEY which are approved may be made manifest among you.



 2009/10/19 12:07
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

In this case the argument is much stronger in my favor, since we are seeing apostolic succession not just of an apostle to a bishop. But of apostle to apostle. We are seeing that indeed there was an anointed succession of leadership in the early church that was intended to continue on in every generation until the return of Christ.



This is not what the text supports. Timothy was a co-apostle with the apostle Paul, just in the same way Barnabas and the others were. The only "anointed succession" that existed, was not in some hierarchical chain of command, rather, the "succession" that existed was in the degree to which one followed the pattern of life and doctrine, in the relationship similar to that of a father and son, or mentor and disciple.

Paul lamented regularly that others who had joined him in ministry often failed to live up to the pattern he established for others to follow. In fact, some had ceased altogether to follow the pattern of life he taught. But Paul regularly rejoiced over Timothy, who walked according to the pattern Paul had established.

"Apostolic succession," far from being the perversion that Rome has made it, is successfully carried out everytime anybody walks according to the model Christ, Paul and the other apostles taught, whether or not they've had an unbroken "succession" in some chain of command. Indeed, there were those in Paul's own life time whom he had joined his apostolic team who later departed from being men and women who were apostolic in the quality of the Christian life they exhibited.

Quote:

And this is exactly what we do see throughout history whether it is the Orthodox, Catholic, Ethiopic, Coptic, Syriac, Thomas Christians of India, Arminian, etc. How can they preach unless they be sent. We see this perpetual sending through the line of apostles and bishops through the ages



It is ultimately Christ who sends. He is our Chief apostle, and it is He who gives gifts and ministries to men, distributing as He wills through the Holy Spirit.

Quote:

1. Discredit the historic Church



The historic Church that exists is those who constitute the redeemd, and have been purchased by the blood of the Lamb. Wherever they are, there is the Church. There are many out there claiming to have letters and credentials, but as Paul reminds us in 2 Corinthians 2-3, it is the Spirit filled life you live, and the difference that it makes in others that constitute the only credentials necessary. Many in his day ran around with commissioning letters, which he equated to the dead law of Moses written in hard stone.

Quote:

2. Show some pretty substantial evidence for the ministry of the likes of Martin Luther and John Calvin. I mean, we had better be seeing the dead raised or something spectacular to attest to the break in succession and apparent apostasy that would have to be present for such a wild claim to be true.



While I'm indebted to the great contributions these men have made, I'm not a fan of them. Though I don't know for a fact, and it is just a mere guess, but I think both of these men may have very well gone to hell.

The reception of the Holy Spirit is the only seal one needs to validate one's salvation, and likewise, the working of the Holy Spirit in one's ministry is all that one needs to validate their ministry before the Lord. One need not produce dynamic miracles, as all have different gifts of the Holy Spirit according to the measure of grace given to them. But, I've seen people healed of various sicknesses (though few). Countless times have I seen God speak through the lips of other men.

Quote:

If you can't do this. Then you must admit that either you are wrong. Or you must admit that the church still remains lost to some degree...that it was snuffed out and has been trying to come back for a couple millennia.



According to Ephesians 4:11-15, the Church is always in the business of growing and reforming, and will do so until it obtains maturity and the perfection that Christ ultimately intends for it to arrive at.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/10/19 12:25Profile









 Re:



To ccrider, brothertom, & orthodox:

What ONE THING is consistent with ccrider, brothertom, & orthodox? ALL of you are attacking the MESSENGER providing the post, and not addressing THE MESSAGE THAT WAS POSTED. Just like the liberal press, who attack the messenger, and marginalize them in order to try to obfuscate (to make obscure, to confuse) the message that is being delivered.

[color=990000][b]NOT ONE OF YOU GUYS/GIRLS HAVE RESPONDED TO MY POST, SO I WILL POST IT AGAIN. Maybe, just maybe, you will address the post itself, without calling names to the poster. When I say address, I mean to prove what I have posted is incorrect BY FACTS, AND NOT BY CALLING NAMES. ONLY CHILDREN AND LIBERALS DO SUCH THINGS:


One thing that is consistent throughout the many, many posts of Orthodox, is that he never, ever responds to the Scripture that is presented to him, nor does he respond to world history, that refutes the Catholic "history" that he posts. Both the Bible Scripture, as well as world history refute EVERYTHING he continues to post.[/color][/b]

[b]Please check out the following link—"A picture of the Catholic Jesus" AND RESPOND TO IT:[/b]


[url=http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/monstran.htm]A Picture of the Catholic Jesus[/url]

[b]Also, check out this link- The Catholic Mary is A Devil, AND RESPOND TO IT:[/b]

[url=http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/mary.htm]The Catholic Mary is a Devil[/url]

[b]Check here to see Blasphemy at the lips of Mother Theresa, AND RESPOND TO IT:[/b]

[url=http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/mothther.htm]Blasphemy at the lips of Mother Theresa[/url]

Sincerely,

Walter

 2009/10/19 12:33









 Re:

"To ccrider, brothertom, & orthodox:

What ONE THING is consistent with ccrider, brothertom, & orthodox? ALL of you are attacking the MESSENGER providing the post, and not addressing THE MESSAGE THAT WAS POSTED. Just like the liberal press, who attack the messenger, and marginalize them in order to try to obfuscate (to make obscure, to confuse) the message that is being delivered." waltern

Sometimes waltern, the messenger is the problem and he/she is always the last to realize it. But you shouldn't take my word for it as I'm not the only one who has said so. You accused certain people of the 'destruction of the Gospel' and when I asked you on PM to point out my heresy you never responded. That means you attacked the person(s) and not the theology... so you can very well bite your lip or keep on with your hypocrisy.

 2009/10/19 12:43









 Re:




to ccrider:

I always address the message. However, if I did not respond to your PM, then I apologize to you. It is not my practice to do so. I have over 178 messages that I have responded to so far, so yours must be the one I missed.

(As I think back, I believe that my post that you were responding to addressed the facts in detail that Roman Catholicism has destroyed the Gospel. If you look at what I just posted below, look at the 3 links that provide proof of the heretical beliefs of Roman Catholicism and the Pope)

Now, back to the business at hand. Instead of making an excuse, and AGAIN ATTACKING THE MESSENGER, instead of addressing what was posted, PLEASE RESPOND TO MY MESSAGE, POINT BY POINT.

We are having a debate here, and in a debate both sides have to prove their position. Only one position will prevail. Why is that? Because the winner of this debate will have the truth of the Gospel and the truth of world history on his/her side.

Do you think that you might be able to do that?

Thanks,

Walter


Quote:

ccrider wrote:
"To ccrider, brothertom, & orthodox:

What ONE THING is consistent with ccrider, brothertom, & orthodox? ALL of you are attacking the MESSENGER providing the post, and not addressing THE MESSAGE THAT WAS POSTED. Just like the liberal press, who attack the messenger, and marginalize them in order to try to obfuscate (to make obscure, to confuse) the message that is being delivered." waltern

Sometimes waltern, the messenger is the problem and he/she is always the last to realize it. But you shouldn't take my word for it as I'm not the only one who has said so. You accused certain people of the 'destruction of the Gospel' and when I asked you on PM to point out my heresy you never responded. That means you attacked the person(s) and not the theology... so you can very well bite your lip or keep on with your hypocrisy.

 2009/10/19 13:03









 Re:

"Please check out my volumnous posts in the past that prove my point." waltern

Yes the point is proven.. you just proved it.

What makes you think I have an issue with the theology of what you posted??? With the exception of you saying awhile back that 'temptation is sin' I don't really dispute too much your theology. But, you can have truth and not have Christlikeness. You had one thread shut down no too long ago because of your attitude and your accusations of others here. You think that because you have right theology that you can steamroll it into the collective forum cerebrum. Then, of all things, when people don't take you seriously and challenge your demeanor, you liken them to the 'liberal press'. Obviously you have no idea how that ridiculousness looks.

You're your own worst enemy and until you realize that you will have trouble with people respecting your theology... even if it is correct... because you fail to see your part in all this in how you deal with people here, and you really don't seem to care. If that's the case then why should anyone care about your posts??

 2009/10/19 13:17









 Re:




To ccrider:


Again, you attack the messenger. Now, be an adult, and attack the message that he/I presented to you. You disagree with what I believe. I totally disagree with everything you believe. I have provided proof, with just 3 links, yet here you are, calling me names again.

Address what is presented in my post below. I will post it again, just for you. All you have to do is respond to the 3 links that prove the heresy of the Catholic Church:

1.A picture of the Catholic Jesus (a wafer), and compare that to what the Bible says about Jesus

2.A picture of the Catholic Mary, the "co-redemptrix with Christ" in relation to what the Bible says about Mary

3. Mother Theresa, was she saved, or is she in hell? Compare what she says about herself, in relation to what the Bible says about the confidence of the true believer.


One thing that is consistent with ccrider, brothertom, & orthodox is waht? That ALL of you are attacking the person providing the post, and not addressing what was posted. Just like the liberal press, who attack the messenger, and try to obfuscate (to make obscure, to confuse) the message that is being delivered.

[color=990000][b]NOT ONE OF YOU GUYS/GIRLS HAVE RESPONDED TO MY POST, SO I WILL POST IT AGAIN. Maybe, just maybe, you will address the post itself, without calling names to the poster. When I say address, I mean to prove what I have posted is incorrect BY FACTS, AND NOT BY CALLING NAMES. ONLY CHILDREN AND LIBERALS DO SUCH THINGS:


One thing that is consistent throughout the many, many posts of Orthodox, is that he never, ever responds to the Scripture that is presented to him, nor does he respond to world history, that refutes the Catholic "history" that he posts. Both the Bible Scripture, as well as world history refute EVERYTHING he continues to post.[/color][/b]

Please check out the following link—"A picture of the Catholic Jesus":


[url=http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/monstran.htm]A Picture of the Catholic Jesus[/url]

Also, check out this link- The Catholic Mary is A Devil

[url=http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/mary.htm]The Catholic Mary is a Devil[/url]

Check here to see Blasphemy at the lips of Mother Theresa:

[url=http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/mothther.htm]Blasphemy at the lips of Mother Theresa[/url]

Sincerely,

Walter

 2009/10/19 13:22





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