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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Imputed Righteousness "of Christ"??

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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
ceedub wrote:
Quote:
truefaithsav wrote:
[b]If our heart holds on to any sin at all[/b], if we refuse to give up any of our sins, then our heart is disobedient to God, [b]we are not regenerate or born again[/b].

Wow. What good news.
A little different than John's approach.
Though John spoke of plan A as 'sin not', he added immediately that if we did we had an advocate in Christ as is pictured beautifully in Zech 3.
According to the above quote, plan B is damnation.

Wow, I can't believe a Christian would disagree to what you just did.

John never argued that, John said [b]IF[/b] we sin, not WHEN we sin.
Plan B is repentance.

The regenerate or born again will not hold on to any sin at all.
The regenerate or born again will not refuse to give up any of our sins.
The fact that you are holding on to any sin or refusing to give up any of your sins is proving you are not regenerate or born again.

Actually The regenerate or born again let go of sin imediatly when revealed.

Quote:
Eventually it shows up how much good theology matters.

Good theology does matter. You should adopt some.

Tell me how you refute:
If our heart holds on to any sin at all, if we refuse to give up any of our sins, then our heart is disobedient to God.

Would you say that if you hold on to any sin,
if you refuse to give up any of your sins,
Is your heart obedient to God or disobedient?

[b]Matthew 7:2[/b] [color=990000]For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.[/color]
This is the sinner’s favorite verse to quote.

If I judge a thief, I can not be judged as a thief because I am not a thief.

Matthew 7:2 is only if you do the same sin as you are judging, you will be judged as you are judging.
(I can't believe I had to explain this to a Christian)

 2009/10/2 18:15Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
The fact that you are holding on to any sin or refusing to give up any of your sins is proving you are not regenerate or born again.



It's so wonderful to have sinless people like you to dialogue with.

I wonder why you even need Jesus to do anything for you as you have all the Law met and you never ever sin, or at least you confess it quickly. Wow you're so good!

But consider that the moment you sin, you, if you are born again and trusting ONLY in Christ's righteousness as you acceptance with God, DOES NOT change your relationship with the Father as far as being back under condemnation.

You are getting very close to becoming the blind guide who was so focused on outward sins alone that they were full of dead men's bones.

Your own righteousness(which if we here at SI can see through as nothing but self righteousness) should cause you to fear that you may be passing on Christ's righteousness.

I still don't understand why you even need Christ to die, o even why you would pray or anything like that as it seems you've already arrived and it is up to us mere sinners to ascend to your teaching(if we were truly born again).

Yep that was harsh, because you have and continue to twist Scripture, and deny what is being said both linguistically and logically to push your own presupposition onto the text and then onto us, even though MANY have told you you are off base.

I was thinking of you today as I read the rich young ruler passage. It is funny because he had the audacity to tell Christ "all these things I have kept, what do I lack?"

Then Jesus exposes his heart and says, "go sell what you have and give it to the poor"(love your neighbor as yourself), "and follow me"(love God with all your heart).

In a moment all of his so called Law keeping was destroyed and he went away sorrowful with his self righteousness done away with.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2009/10/2 18:29Profile
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

Logic,

[b]Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.[/b]

While you're stooping to explain the basics to a moron like me, can you also explain how you apply this exhortation from Paul line by line?

But only towards me, because if you're 'truly regen and born again' I guess you'd never need the forgiveness part being as you never sin.

But then again, if you blow it wholesale on all 3 lines, you're not tender hearted, you're not kind and you don't forgive anyone but instead tell them they're not saved and at best very ignorant, then again maybe you might need more forgiveness than you originally thought.

I usually don't have to explain this to christians.

 2009/10/2 18:36Profile









 Re:

Quote:
The regenerate or born again will not hold on to any sin at all.
The regenerate or born again will not refuse to give up any of our sins.
The fact that you are holding on to any sin or refusing to give up any of your sins is proving you are not regenerate or born again.



Amen!! A regenerate heart is a heart that rejects all sin! A born again man is one who will not refuse to obey God!

The grace of God does not leave us as an old man, but changes us into a new man. The old man served sin, the new man serves Christ. The old man sinned every day. The new man follows Christ every day. The unregenerate heart was hostile towards God and disobedient towards Him. The regenerate heart is submitted and surrendered unto God, it is obedient to Him. By the grace of God, and by the influence of the Holy Spirit, sinners are turned into Saints! That is what glorifies God! That is what exalts the saving power of Jesus Christ!

If we are sinning every day in word, thought, and deed, are we really being changed by the grace of God?? Are we really not walking in our flesh, rather then relying on the grace of God?

 2009/10/3 0:59









 Re:

In the Bible, forgiveness, remission, imputed righteousness, justiication, etc are all terms that express the same thing. It is when we are pardoned for all of our past sins and are accepted and shown divine favor, when we repent and believe, and are treated as if we had always been righteous. "The righteousness of God" is the unmerited favor and forgiveness which comes from God.

The Bible never talks about "the imputed righteousness of Christ" as John Wesley pointed out. The Bible talks about "the righteousness of God" which is the forgiveness which comes from Him, and the Bible talks about "imputed righteousness" which is when God considers us or treats us as righteous, as if we had never sinned.

 2009/10/3 1:02
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
In the Bible, forgiveness, remission, imputed righteousness, justiication, etc are all terms that express the same thing.



No they are not and that is specifically why differing words are used for each one.

Quote:
"the imputed righteousness of Christ" as John Wesley pointed out



and if Wesley truly believed this, then he did not preach the Gospel! the Gospel is not the Gospel WITHOUT imputation.

Even Galatians 2:20 shows an exchange, "He loved me AND gave Himself for me"

The word "for" is "huper" which means "in behalf of".

Christ died in behalf of those who will be saved BECAUSE their sin was imputed to Him, so that His righteousness could be imputed to them by simple faith.

Quote:
"the righteousness of God"



No, this is not simply forgiveness of sins! it is the perfection required by God to stand before Him without condemnation.

Quote:
"imputed righteousness" which is when God considers us or treats us as righteous, as if we had never sinned.



No that is justification. That is why Paul specifically uses a legal word to describe what has happened.

We can be justified(declared righteous) because Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, as it CLEARLY says in 2 Corinthians 5:21

They are not all synonymous, and maybe that is why you are struggling to grasp this?


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2009/10/3 1:29Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
The fact that you are holding on to any sin or refusing to give up any of your sins is proving you are not regenerate or born again.

It's so wonderful to have sinless people like you to dialogue with.

With the correct definition of sin, one never ever has to sin again in his entire life.
Sin is always avoidable.

Sin must be repentable, if you can't help it, then it is not repentable.

Quote:
I wonder why you even need Jesus to do anything for you as you have all the Law met and you never ever sin, or at least you confess it quickly.

God has given us Jesus Spirit as a Helper to help us pray, to teach us all things and bring all things to our remembrance whatsoever HE has said to us.
To give us power to be witnesses of HIM and to live a sinless & holy life...etc...

Jesus has freed us from sin Rom 6:18
cleanses us from all sin 1 Jn 1:7
cleanses us from all unrighteousness 1Jn 1:9
free from the law of sin and death Rom 8:2

If Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Wewre do you get that we don't need Jesus?

Quote:
Wow you're so good!

Jesus is so good, He says to go & sin NO MORE. We should obey and SIN NO MORE.
HE wouldn't tell us to do anything we can't do.
But you might think HE was kidding.

Quote:
You are getting very close to becoming the blind guide who was so focused on [b]outward sins[/b] alone that they were full of dead men's bones.

Say I have an "inward sin".
I don't know about it, therefore I am innocent.
Then God sheds light on my "inward sin"; When that happens, I immediately repent. Therefore, I stay innocent.

My heart was innocent, even after God revealed it because I immediately repented; my did not sin; therefore I did not sin.

Or say that I unintentionally "sinned".
I didn't mean to, it was an "Oops!"
My heart was innocent, it did not sin; therefore I did not sin.

Quote:
Your own righteousness(which if we here at SI can see through as nothing but self righteousness) should cause you to fear that you may be passing on Christ's righteousness.

How is doing that which one is supposed to do (not supposed to sin) having one's own righteousness?
How is being obedient having one's own righteousness?
[b]Please answer this?[/b]

Quote:
I still don't understand why you even need Christ to die

Christ died so that our sins may be forgiven.
[b]IF[/b] we sin (not "when" we sin), we have Jesus as our advocate, because He died.

Quote:
o even why you would pray or anything like that as it seems you've already arrived and it is up to us mere sinners to ascend to your teaching(if we were truly born again).

What's your point in saying this?

Quote:
...because you have and continue to [b]twist Scripture[/b]

Your the one who's theology/doctrine is contrary to reality.
In order for ones theology/doctrine to be contrary to reality, one must twist Scripture to have it so.

Quote:
and deny what is being said both linguistically and logically

Logically?
You’re the one who says Jesus became an ambiguous sin.
This is not logical.

Quote:
to push your own presupposition onto the text and then onto us, even though MANY have told you are off base.

Tell that to Barnes & Clarke.
Jamieson Fausset Brown Commentary says that Jesus became the Sin-bearer (as HE bore our sins Isa 53:12)

I am not "pushing" my "own presupposition onto the text", but making sense of it.
Your not making any sense by saying Jesus became an ambiguous sin on the cross.

Quote:
In a moment all of his so called Law keeping was destroyed and he went away sorrowful with his self righteousness done away with.

The rich young ruler wasn’t willing to repent. It's not that he couldn't.

Why is it that you are so hard pressed to deny that one could stop sinning?
Isn't God good enough to let you stop doing that which HE hates
Even Scripture says that you are free from sin; why must you continue in it?

 2009/10/3 2:08Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Why is it that you are so hard pressed to deny that one could stop sinning?



Did you sin today?


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2009/10/3 2:12Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
Why is it that you are so hard pressed to deny that one could stop sinning?

Did you sin today?

No.

You may be asking because you you did.

Why did you sin today?
Couldn't you help it?
Was it out of your control?

Do you ever answer my questions with out me asking twice?

How is doing that which one is supposed to do (not supposed to sin) having one's own righteousness?
How is being obedient having one's own righteousness?
Please answer this?
Did you have to sin?

 2009/10/3 2:35Profile
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, sin is a strange thing... a priest of 30 years said that in 30 years not one person confessed that they ever coveted anything. its always someone else who sins. pride is satans sin... discouragement is his greatest weapon... sins of omission[not giving to the poor etc.] are onesthat we blow off.a haughty spirit,lost temper on the job or highway... strife or envy are sins that smell and whatsoever is not of faith is sin. i am sure that if i walked with anyone long enough they would see past my facade and i theirs. thank God for Jesus who took care of sin at the cross.jimp

 2009/10/3 10:06Profile





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