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 Re: 7 Arguments Atheists Can't Use by Eli Brayley


Hi Aaron,

Thanks for your reply.

Quote:
in actuality, mystical experiences as reported, do tend to reflect prior culture.

This is a limitation which God has put upon man - that he cannot 'imagine' anything beyond his previous experience. But this doesn't stop God from introducing us to good (and mystical) experieinces we haven't had before.

Quote:
My point is, Phenomenologically and even nurophysiologically, that all perception, all experience, is unintelligible save by interpretation, by conjecture, impossible without context and therefore bias from prior expectations.

Surely the 'bias from prior expectations' helps one to determine that one's 'bias from prior expectations' could not have prepared one for certain experiences? While I accept your point about the need for interpretation, conjecture tends to seek confirmation. It won't remain as the only, or, most plausible, interpretation. The heart is able to know when it has arrived at rest - and truth - including if God is the author of the experience.

Quote:
This then would apply even to mystical experiences, even to experience, whether by whatever supposed psychical contact or purported physical manifestation of God if there is one.

God tends to wait for an invitation to manifest himself to man, apart from his commands to those who know him, to manifest his love and presence to others. Things changed a lot when Jesus Christ came. Up till then, experiences of God's engagement with man usually had something to do with his desire to have a reputation on earth, as one who could bless, as well as destroy. He also loved to have man engage with his word in a way which showed that man's trust in him.

Here are two more natural-law-defying events in the Old Testament, borne out of necessity, both of which had quite a few witnesses and can't be described as 'mystical'.


'And the LORD said unto Joshua, Fear them {Amorite kings in league to defeat Israel} not: for I have delivered them into thine hand; there shall not a man of them stand before thee.

Joshua therefore came unto them suddenly, [and] went up from Gilgal all night. And the LORD discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them along the way that goeth up to Bethhoron, and smote them to Azekah, and unto Makkedah.

And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, [and] were in the going down to Beth-horon, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: [they were] more which died with hailstones than [they] whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.

Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies.

[Is] not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.' Joshua 10:8 - 14


'And the sons of the prophets said unto Elisha, Behold now, the place where we dwell with thee is too strait for us. Let us go, we pray thee, unto Jordan, and take thence every man a beam, and let us make us a place there, where we may dwell. And he answered, Go ye.

And one said, Be content, I pray thee, and go with thy servants. And he answered, I will go. So he went with them. And when they came to Jordan, they cut down wood.

But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.

And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast [it] in thither; and the iron did swim. Therefore said he, Take [it] up to thee. And he put out his hand, and took it.'

2 Kings 6:1 - 7

 2011/5/6 18:31
AaronAgassi
Member



Joined: 2011/4/11
Posts: 118


 Re:

While conjectures may indeed motivate seeking for corroboration, unlike faith the systematic doubt of science demands also the effort at refutation for the sake of ongoing error correction. As to the conjecturality even of perception, yes of course, experience may fail adequately to prepare one for certain new experiences. Perceptually, the result may be miscomprehension or incomprehension, as with native islanders literally unable to see the sailing ships of the Europeans, or aboriginals out from the jungle for the first time, so inexperienced with longer depth perception, that they repeatedly try to brush distant objects that seem small, out from in front of their faces, or outsiders in the jungle suffering extreme eyestrain, from all of the vines at every depth of field, making them refocus constantly.

I am well aware of doctrine regarding how God awaits human invitation, and I am sure that this can be biblically supported. So why belabor a point that I neither contest nor deem important? Besides, if indeed circumstances are such, then it would seemingly follow that experience, inexperience, context bias and prior expectation, would all pertain, as they all clearly do in mystical experiences as reported. The Science Fiction trope clearly inspired by mystical experience, of telepathic aliens explaining that they are not actually speaking English or using familiar metaphors, but rather that the recipient human mind simply processes the abstract concepts and information of the alien telepathic message that way. But here is entertaining conjecture all for sheer creativity's sake, supposition all quite untestable.

 2011/5/7 0:02Profile









 Re: 7 Arguments Atheists Can't Use by Eli Brayley

Quote:
I am well aware of doctrine regarding how God awaits human invitation, and I am sure that this can be biblically supported. So why belabor a point that I neither contest nor deem important?

Aaron, I apologise. I didn't know that this point had been covered. I've got it, now.
Quote:
Perceptually, the result may be miscomprehension or incomprehension, as with native islanders literally unable to see the sailing ships of the Europeans, or aboriginals out from the jungle for the first time, so inexperienced with longer depth perception, that they repeatedly try to brush distant objects that seem small, out from in front of their faces, or outsiders in the jungle suffering extreme eyestrain, from all of the vines at every depth of field, making them refocus constantly.

I've never heard these things. They are a great metaphor for the constant battle a Christian has to keep his focus on Jesus Christ, and rightly distinguish the spiritual artefacts which pose genuine threats from those which appear to loom near, but are stationed well outside his immediate sphere.
Quote:
Besides, if indeed circumstances are such, then it would seemingly follow that experience, inexperience, context bias and prior expectation, would all pertain, as they all clearly do in mystical experiences as reported.

I do agree. But one tends to be unprepared (initially), for just how the presence of God nearby will make one feel, and it truly does vary greatly, depending on the reason and need of the moment in which he comes to the person. The question 'was THAT God?' is indeed perplexing, for sometimes there is no doubt at all, and God seeks to illiminate doubt by urging upon man to pray, especially when situations are humanly speaking impossible.

But there are many injunctions to pray - for instance, for God's kingdom to come on earth, for daily bread, to be delivered from evil, to be led away from temptation - which are not necessarily emergencies, but all ways God can prove himself not only listening, but obliging, in which man can experience his general intention to bless with good things. However, we also see evil and unjust people being blessed with sun and rain and food, so a more personal apprehension of his ways and his heart is always on his mind for those who would KNOW him.
Quote:
But here is entertaining conjecture all for sheer creativity's sake, supposition all quite untestable.

In the Old Testament, with the exception of prophets, priests and kings, most of God's blessings and proofs were externally demonstrable - not that these have ceased today; but there is a more intimate knowledge available to the common man, which he fine tunes for each of us. That to which his prophets, priests and kings became party in a measure, has become, as the song says 'an open secret'.

 2011/5/7 5:24
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

Aaron, I suggest you study Ecclesiastes and see what happens to all your logic...


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2011/5/7 7:48Profile
AaronAgassi
Member



Joined: 2011/4/11
Posts: 118


 Re:

I have, actually. What about it, ginnyrose?

Alive-to-God, you admit the question: 'was THAT God?' Indeed, is it ever? No, not from the wishful autosuggestion you recommend nor the scriptural citation that you proffer, and all even entirely aside from any problems of Theodicy. (Although it has been suggested that Atheism from burden of evidence upon the positive, is merely to hold the universe innocent until found guilty, merely the default assumption that circumstances of suffering are merely of happenstance rather than actually by Design.) It is a truism that nothing is brought away from mystical experiences that wasn't prior baggage going into them and that such is the entire learning opportunity of all soul-searching: of evaluation or reevaluation, of Axiology. Again, the allegedly miraculous frequently misses the metaphor entirely, obscuring any relevant moral of mere human responsibility.

 2011/5/7 9:20Profile
Veronica226
Member



Joined: 2010/2/3
Posts: 144
Montana

 Re:

Aaron,

Forgive me if I'm wrong here but you said:

Quote:
But here is entertaining conjecture all for sheer creativity's sake, supposition all quite untestable.



Are you referring to all that has been discussed so far or just what you said in your post and in Alive-to-God's post before this one?
Are you saying that only things that are testable are true or factual?


_________________
Veronica

 2011/5/7 15:32Profile









 Re: 7 Arguments Atheists Can't Use by Eli Brayley



Hi Aaron,

I may reply further, but I see others have joined the conversation, and you may wish to reply to them further. In the meantime:

Quote:
you admit the question: 'was THAT God?' Indeed, is it ever?

Indeed it is. And those spirits who may offer counterfeit intelligence, can be also recognised. God is the Uncreated Spirit, who created the others - including ours. I believe you will know for sure if you ever have an encounter with him.

 2011/5/7 15:55
AaronAgassi
Member



Joined: 2011/4/11
Posts: 118


 Re:

Veronica226, I was indeed referring to as subject of entertaining but untestable conjecture, that which I had just raised, being Science Fiction telepathy and similarly mythical supernatural inner experience of God. Indeed, Alive-to-God, you claim that experience of God is unmistakable, and yet you disparage mystical experiences persuasive to others yet irreconcilable with your own predisposition of dogma, as counterfeit of deceiving spirits. Confound your arrogance and fantasy, sir/m 'am! Can't you ever get out of your own head anc see yourself?

 2011/5/7 16:26Profile
Veronica226
Member



Joined: 2010/2/3
Posts: 144
Montana

 Re:

Aaron,

Quote:
Veronica226, I was indeed referring to as subject of entertaining but untestable conjecture, that which I had just raised, being Science Fiction telepathy and similarly mythical supernatural inner experience of God.


Thank you for clarifying. Allow me to ask another question: Since these are untestable does that make them false or unreal?

Quote:
Indeed, Alive-to-God, you claim that experience of God is unmistakable, and yet you disparage mystical experiences persuasive to others yet irreconcilable with your own predisposition of dogma, as counterfeit of deceiving spirits.


I know this was directed towards Alive-to-God, but if I may...
I'm not so sure that anyone NOT affiliated with a religion (new age type stuff) would attribute a mystical experience to "God," but to a divine essence that is in all the world. The universe is god, we're god, etc. Sort of like the "Force" in Star Wars. (Though probably not always true, this is my experience.)
However, those within some other faiths, say Islam and Jehovah's Witness for example, when they hear a Christian talk about being in the presence of God they give him a blank stare and say, "I don't know what you're talking about." Because they never have experienced the presence of God or any god. Both my mother and I have experienced this with people of other faiths. They either give us blank stares or look at us like we're nuts. It seems their god does not condescend to give them a sense of his presence nor let them know he is there. (Again, this is my experience. Perhaps you have had a different one.)
Just my 2 cents.
In Christ


_________________
Veronica

 2011/5/7 21:49Profile
AaronAgassi
Member



Joined: 2011/4/11
Posts: 118


 Re:

Fair enough question. Being untestable males them, first of all, well, untestable! But there are reasons also to consider them unlikely. Untestability may be linked to other issues of critical preference, such as parsimony of explanation and alternative explanation, because, if there is any known way for a phenomenon to occur and thus to exist, that might tend to at least to point the way towards a testable hypothesis. All in all, what we have here seems more than anything like a non solution in search of a problem, because explanatorily, there are clearly simpler and more viable hypotheses available. The problems religion strives to answer are not explanatory as such.

For that matter, how is an alleged Divine essence pervading all of Creation not God? This hardly even seems a contention of Theological debate, much less falling short of purportedly experience of God or the Divine. Even leaving that aside, how are New Age mystical experiences disqualified, and in what way, but mystical experiences dogmatically correct not? It all seen beyond even merely circuitous. Besides, clearly traditional Monotheistic faiths, indeed the less Pagan than Christianity what with Trinity, angels, interceding Saints and all, also certainly do report mystical experiences of God on high or pervading or within or indeed howsoever He or She might ever be conceived of. I do agree however, that not every religion or sect necessarily purports or admits direct mystical experience to begin with. For that matter, not every religious disposition tautologically admits hearsay of prior experience at all, much less cannon or scripture, despite the inescapability of context and therefore bias. Only organized religion needs canonical scripture for obvious reasons.

 2011/5/8 0:07Profile





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