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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : 7 Arguments Atheists Can't Use by Eli Brayley

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AaronAgassi
Member



Joined: 2011/4/11
Posts: 118


 Re:

It is the mind, not the eye, that sees. The astronomer who discovered the rings of Saturn was unable to see them, until he first formed the concept. And if even sheer visual perception is conjectural, this must certainly apply to mystical experiences, the interpretation whereof is well known and understood to be colored by cultural expectations, be they Pagan fairytale, Judeo-Christian or New Age Tabloid Weird. The only exception might be magnetically induced fugue states in the laboratory, because the subject knows in advance what is actually going on. Only such are at all reliably free of fantastic confabulation.

And it is life that communicates with the heart of man, the sensibility of each individual. And that is even the more individual and cultural in the interpretation. But what you cite are not feelings at all, but events of Biblical parable and fable. -And not even the Sumerian original versions at that. You cannot simply conflate personal mystical experience and fidelity to dogma of literal scripture.

Even with such great faltering and reverent temerity, Gideon is performing a divination of the most subtle signs, scientifically inconclusive to say the least. Doubting Thomas would have been less easily satisfied, let alone the Amazing Randy! God doesn't think like us, you say. God cannot grasp concrete observable events, or direct communication. God is Autistic! Any premise is allowable. Jumping to conclusion is another matter. More bicameral shadow boxing,

 2011/5/3 15:38Profile









 Re: 7 Arguments Atheists Can't Use by Eli Brayley

Hi Aaron,

The history of Israel is littered with unusual events, which, if anyone other than God was involved, would indeed be occult.

Quote:
God doesn't think like us, you say.

That's God's idea, not mine, by the way.

Isaiah 55:9
For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 2011/5/3 16:15
AaronAgassi
Member



Joined: 2011/4/11
Posts: 118


 Re:

History must be separated from legend. Indeed, over time long preexisting tales of the supernatural where updated to conform to Monotheism and much later became canonical.

 2011/5/3 18:49Profile









 Re: 7 Arguments Atheists Can't Use by Eli Brayley

Quote:
History must be separated from legend.

Yes, but legend may not be all false.
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Indeed, over time long preexisting tales of the supernatural where updated to conform to Monotheism and much later became canonical.

As a person in history, whose claims about his origin make him unique, Jesus Christ, in his day (on earth) declared truth from his personal history as the Son of God, as well as confirming some of the people and their actions, in earthly history to his generation, into which generation his disciples had also been born.

The record of Jesus Christ's claims, weighs considerably in favour of the Bible's account. If you think carefully about this, Jesus Christ - who is verified by extra-biblical writers - could have challenged the biblical record. Instead, time and again he confirms it, clarifies it, and adds to it from his knowledge as the pre-incarnate Son of God.

As Jesus Christ's coming was foretold by God very early in the Bible (Genesis 3), and was foretold repeatedly by prophets separated by generations from each other, the agreement of sights given us by both Christ and the prophets into eternal events, hold a special fascination. It is here that we find the reason for the similarities between pre-Christian worship practices, which appear to have been subsumed into Christianity. In fact, the pattern was, and is, in heaven, being slowly revealed by God to those men on earth to whom he made his words plain. To those who had begun to follow a different spirit on earth, a corruption of true worship had begun soon after Genesis 3.

The Old Testament maintains a strong line on WHAT God was saying down the years, regardless if it seemed always comprehensible to those to whom it was given. Some is clearer than others. For instance, Noah was so sure God had given him the instructions for how to build the ark, he committed a hundred years to building it.

(Just in passing, let me say that not until a particularly serious transgression on the part of 'God's people', during Moses' time, do we find him promising to make himself invisible to them. This tends to make the actions of men like Noah, Abraham and Moses seem more reasonable.)

So, not only does our very existence today lend credence to the 'history' of Noah's ark, but the many 'legendary' accounts of our forefathers arriving in a boat, obtains greater credence.

 2011/5/4 7:11
AaronAgassi
Member



Joined: 2011/4/11
Posts: 118


 Re:

We may disagree, but simply to repeat yourself as if not noticing, is just persistent gainsaying at best. Again: That you explain this away as prophesy in collective consciousness, does not change that Jesus is not, after all, unique in history, but only one among many similar historical figures, similarly mythologized. Indeed, the only known contemporary extra-biblical mention of Jesus, is in passing by Josephus vaguely from recollection, of an alleged ledger of heretics by name. Or do you accept the Book of Mormon? Moreover, the contemporaries of Jesus where well aware of all the Torah foretells. -Therefore something less than a double blind test. Self consistency of narrative in any part, barely even meets some of the criteria of logical consistency. That certainly doesn't make it historically accurate. Faith enfolds Apologetics that utterly distorts your reasoning circuitously, lowers the bar for evidence in corroboration, and embraces no standards of refutation. And you still make special pleadings for Christian accounts, that you reject for other religions and their scriptures.

 2011/5/4 11:16Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re:


Aaron,

I've tried to keep up a little with the thread and I commend you for hanging in there and I also commend Alive-to-God because I know I wouldn't have lasted 15 pages!! This will be my only comment!

You have a LOT of the world's wisdom which gets you by in this world very well and I'm sure that as you tell all your friends what you are telling us, there is good bit of jesting and posturing and I say this humbly to you but you as man of this world cannot discern nor even begin to understand the things of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God... but God bless ya for trying!!

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."
1 Corinthians 2.14

And you won't understand anything unless God opens your eyes to see what others don't see. And if you don't ask, He won't open them; so you are where you are because you want to be there. :) But He does love you and He will be there when all your earthly wisdom begins to fail you.

I pray that the God of the universe does indeed put a hunger and thirst for righteousness deep down in your belly because only then will you be filled (Matt 5.6).

Then please come back and share with us what God has done for you!!
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2011/5/4 11:46Profile
AaronAgassi
Member



Joined: 2011/4/11
Posts: 118


 Re:

Again, such is classic insider/outsider dilemma, whereas science strive to transparency, in reasoning open to criticism and repeatable observations and results.

And yet again, as for asking God, can that mean mealy going through the motions, even to the point of hypocrisy, or does asking God require surrendering rational objectivity, sincerity and participation in faith, in short, actually taking it seriously, which quite honesty, you all know that I just don't?

 2011/5/4 16:43Profile









 Re: 7 Arguments Atheists Can't Use by Eli Brayley

Quote:
How am I wrong about faith?

I have the impression that you think it requires suspension - however tiny - of a degree of intelligence (or, intellectual respectability), or, the overlooking of a reasonable ground of disbelief.

The way you use the word 'faith', it would not BE faith, unless these points were so. You explained it this way:
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Indeed my impression of faith is of dogmatism systematically dishonest with factors which would give rise to legitimate doubt.



Quote:
And religion does explain the known physical world evident to the senses, by way of a mysterious Creator in Eternity,

Christians would say there is a large difference between their religion and all others, because their God is very different from the 'god' in other religions. We could talk more about that difference, but moving on, God is not oblivious to our senses. He gave them to us. Gideon's fears prompted him to ask God to bear his proof questions, the answers to which were both in the sensory realm. The question then arises whether the man (in that case Gideon), is going to do the honourable thing and believe God. The more God reveals his susceptibility to be in relationship with men, the less men can continue to insist that he is unknowable.

 2011/5/4 18:53









 Re: 7 Arguments Atheists Can't Use by Eli Brayley

Quote:
The astronomer who discovered the rings of Saturn was unable to see them, until he first formed the concept.

Are you sure about that?
Quote:
And if even sheer visual perception is conjectural, this must certainly apply to mystical experiences,

Mystical experiences (with God) are not all visual (or, visionary). Some are olfactory, or auditory, and some are none of those - when God speaks (say, during a dream) and the words seem spoken inside the sleeper - not in his head, but in his spirit - such that WHAT has been said is unmistakable and unforgettable.
Quote:
the interpretation whereof is well known and understood to be colored by cultural expectations, be they Pagan fairytale, Judeo-Christian or New Age Tabloid Weird.

This is a great point to make. What's interesting, is that God knows how to communicate within any culture, so as to mark himself out distinctively separate from it. Another obvious way is - he speaks your language. You will definitely know what he's saying. It won't be gobbledegook - to you.

 2011/5/4 19:05
AaronAgassi
Member



Joined: 2011/4/11
Posts: 118


 Re:

Plausibly, God might determine to make Himself manifestly stand out as alien to the culture of the experiencer, nevertheless, in actuality, mystical experiences as reported, do tend to reflect prior culture. Mystical experiences do not need to be visual. My point is, Phenomenologically and even nurophysiologically, that all perception, all experience, is unintelligible save by interpretation, by conjecture, impossible without context and therefore bias from prior expectations. This then would apply even to mystical experiences, even to experience, whether by whatever supposed psychical contact or purported physical manifestation of God if there is one. Yes I'm sure about the discovery of Saturn. Indeed there are many other similar well known anecdotes to drive home the same point.

 2011/5/4 19:30Profile





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