| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: | |
To Christinyou:
Yes, I think that all Chriatian believers believe that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.
The statement that Deepthinker has made, that started this thread, is that Jesus Christ has already come again (his 2nd coming, at the end of the Tribulation).
Would you agree with Deepthinker?
Quote:
[b]
Deepthinker posted:
Yes another Eschatology thread. We need to always set the record straight.
Waltern your welcome to interact, but I would prefer that you simply state your case and not accuse me of being wrong. If you can't do that, don't post. Thank you
The purpose of this thread is to show that Jesus was truly a prophet in that what He said would happen did happen and the people to whom He was speaking to He was speaking to them and not in some future "generation".
I am going to present two obscure verses that most people glide over and don't take into consideration, and I will leave the rest up to you beloved to study and let the holy Spirit be your guide and not commentaries.
I know that the title is shocking. The very thought of anyone believing that Christ has already come sounds blasphemous. You know, the Pharisees thought Jesus spoke blasphemy when He told them that God was His Father, making Him equal with God. Notice how they put the Son and the Father as one. Ask yourself this question, if God is my Father and I am one with God, what does that make us? I'll leave that answer between you and our Father.
Now on to the subject at hand. Here are the verses to consider.
Quote:
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Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
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Quote:
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Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
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I can hear some of you now, "Read in context". Then by all means read it in context, most of us have bibles.
[/b]
Sincerely,
Walter
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|  2009/9/23 20:00 | | Christinyou
Member
Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.
| | Re: | | I believe that Jesus is come in the believer by His Spirit, giving new birth, Satan out Christ in.
"New Creature".
I believe Jesus will come in the flesh and take the throne of David in the new Jerusalem.
Jesus said, "John 14:18-20 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."
I believe, "At that day" is for the believer now.
For Christ is in the Father, and we are in Jesus and Jesus is in us.
Is He come in the believer's flesh that we might have the God Head bodily and complete in us now? New Creation. Colossians 2:9-10 For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
In Christ: Phillip
_________________
Phillip
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| | 2009/9/24 22:02 | Profile | ADisciple
Member
Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada
| | Re: | | Quote:
I believe that Jesus is come in the believer by His Spirit
Yes. Very insightful. As you quoted, "I will not leave you comfortless (orphans): [b]I[/b] will come to you" (Jn. 14.18).
When we read the whole passage in context, we see that Jesus is talking of the coming of the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. Yet He says, "I will come to you."
This is a coming that is largely overlooked, to our great impoverishment. His appearing in the Spirit.
Yet there is also the coming in which we "wait for His Son from Heaven..." (1 Thes. 1.10).
So this whole matter of His coming is a very big, very vast thing. We see through a glass darkly. The only way we can hope to be part of it all is not so much by trying to get it all figured out doctrinally, but by walking close to Jesus in the Spirit... and in all humility.
Quote:
I believe Jesus will come in the flesh and take the throne of David in the new Jerusalem.
According to Acts 2.30-31 the Lord Jesus Christ is already seated on the throne of David.
"Therefore (David) being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his loins He would [b]raise up[/b] Christ to sit on his (David's) throne, he seeing this before spake of [b]the resurrection of Christ[/b]..."
The Lord Jesus Christ is raised from the dead, and has ascended on high, and now sits on the true throne of David-- the throne of the Kingdom-- at the right hand of God. There is no greater throne in the universe.
AD
_________________
Allan Halton
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| | 2009/9/24 23:03 | Profile |
| | Re: | | thank you brother philip, that blessed my socks off. |
| | 2009/9/24 23:05 | | elharris
Member
Joined: 2009/8/10
Posts: 59
| | Re: | | Hey Dave,
Dear Brother, thank you for you gracious disagreement.
However I would like to point something out if you don't mind.
You said:
Quote:
Can I say respectfully that your conclusion that Jesus was speaking to angels and the unseen world is just conjecture and speculation. There is nothing in the text to suggest this and no reason for anyone who was present to consider this. Indeed if Matthew or Luke knew this to be so they would have made it clear for us.
However what Matthew does do VERY clearly is in the next verse (next chapter, but there were no chapter divisions in the original) is to say 'Now AFTER SIX DAYS Jesus took Peter, James and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain'. The transfiguration. So SIX DAYS AFTER WHAT? It can only be six days after he had just spoken to them in the previous verses about some not tasting death before seeing His kingdom. So Matthew makes a clear link between these events to show us they are connected, so we can understand what Jesus meant.
So what waltern posted makes sense:
Waltern made a statement, that what "immediately followed" gave the proper understanding of what those verses meant. However that interpretation was based on something that happened not "immediately", but 6 days later.
Walter never quoted or read what Jesus said in the SAME converstation as the verses in question, just 4 or 5 sentences previous.
Context deals with not only what is written after words but what is written before.
In this case what Jesus said in the same conversation and at the same time on the same day, would have a lot more bearing on what he meant, than what he may have done or said 6 days later.
You said: [i]Can I say respectfully that your conclusion that Jesus was speaking to angels and the unseen world is just conjecture and speculation. There is nothing in the text to suggest this and no reason for anyone who was present to consider this. Indeed if Matthew or Luke knew this to be so they would have made it clear for us.
[/i]
First of all the gospels are not written to always make everything Jesus said clear to us. They are simply a record of what he said and did. Jesus often spoke in parables and mysteries, which were only later revealed to his disciples, with much being not understood till after his resurrection. The writers of the Gospels rarely give and interpretation of what Jesus said, unless Jesus gave it.
Secondly Jesus from the outset, even before he actually started his ministry in preacing the Kingdome of God, spoke to angels, devils and the unseen world, for God himself is unseen. This was a constant pattern with him, way before the verses in question.
Thirdly, the previous context, just a few sentences before he spoke to the unseen world.
The verses in question are Mat 16:28 and Luke 9:27. However the same record is recorded in Mark 9:1.
As I said, Waltern looks at what took place 6 days later, rather than looking back in the same conversation for the interpretation or understanding.
Can we look here at what immediately preceeded what Jesus said.
Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
But he turned, and said unto Peter, [b]Get thee behind me, Satan:[/b] thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. [b]Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.[/b]
Every single person standing there hearing this at the time, is dead. The only one that would not be dead is Satan who was working on Peter, to try and undermine, what Jesus had been preaching.
I got to tell you that there have been quite a few times in my life, when I've had people talking to me, and I KNEW it was Satan (i.e. a devil spirit). I have addressed spirits in this manner before.
For instance I work with two children who are 6 and 11. There are times, I know I'm dealing with a child, and times when I know I'm dealing with something completely different. Since one child is a girl and the other a boy, I call the other entity at work Mr. Ugly and Miss Meany. These children get what I can only call "VILE". And what stares back at me through their eyes, I know is not them.
Jesus could not "just" have been talking to Peter, since the incident right before this, was completely on the opposite side of the coin.
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
When Peter said this, he was speaking by the spirit of God. But when Peter tried to rebuke the Lord and undermine the truth, he was speaking by the spirit of the devil or Satan. The words that come out of our mouth determine what spirit we are speaking by.
At one point Jesus told Peter, that Satan desired to have him, so he could sift him like wheat. This showed that Satan had place at that time in Peter. These are invisible demonic spirits, and I am sure, that the devil did not leave it up to a subordinate to try and work in those closest to Jesus, to get to Jesus.
And again in Mark, the record is the same. And you should appreciate this, because of what you were saying about chapter and verse divisions. Because they split the same conversation off at the very last sentence and put it in Chapter 9.
Mark 8: 31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.
But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, [b]Get thee behind me, Satan:[/b] for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Mark 9:1 1 [b]And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.[/b]
Jesus spoke a lot of the Gospel in mysteries, that would only later be revealed after he was raised from the dead. This was why he spoke so many things in parable and mysteries.
1 Cor 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, [b]nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:[/b]
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 [b]Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.[/b]
Jesus spoke a lot of things in parables and mysteries, because he did not want the princes, satan, devil spirits, to know how they would ultimately be defeated, and what their ultimate fate would be. They had to conspire to possess men to betray and murder him, to murder innocent blood, so that he could be the perfect and fianal sacrifice for sin.
You know at that time people believed in the gods and in spirits and evil spirits, but they did not really know a lot about them. Jesus put them on display.
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility [b]and worshipping of angels,[/b] intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Jesus revealed that the demons or devil spirits, the principalities and powers, who pawned themselves off as "gods" to mankind were really just angels.
1 Cor 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, [b]they sacrifice to devils, and not to God:[/b] and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
Jesus spoke to the unseen world all the time. I don't think I need to put all the verses here, as you can type in "devil" in the Bible search, and see how many times he spoke both to the devil himself, and to demonic spirits.
When he said what he did to Satan, Satan would have thought he was talking to his disciples and wondered if the son of man was going to come into his kingdom in that generation.
I know he knew who he was talking to, but that he would not have done it directly. I can imagine how he felt about this being having dealt with him from the beginning. And now knowing that he was going to defeat him, but that he could not just come out and say exactly how or why, or it would thwart the whole plan.
But to get a little secret dig in, is something that we may all have done in situations with individuals, that we could not reveal our true feelings or the total truth of what we were thinking. And I believe this is what he was doing. Talking to one person but in truth you are really saying what you are saying for the benefit of someone else, and they go "HUH"?
Luke is a little different in that in the same event, he does not mention what Jesus says to Peter.
However the incident before has Jesus giving his 12 disciples the power to heal and cast out devils, and the incident right after the transfiguration, Jesus is rebuking a devil and casting him out of a young boy.
IF we can be made immortal, then there is no reason why an angel could not be stripped of his powers and made mortal. I believe that the first century believers knew this to be a truth.
Revelation speaks of the devil and his angels being thrown down to earth, and having but a short time. This seems to take place either at the same time, or shortly after the last trump, when I believe the resurrection and the gathering together of the living (called the rapture) takes place.
It says there that, their place is found no more in heaven, for that to be the case, then their power to FLY back and forth from earth to heaven would have to be taken away. Weather they be turned mortal, or just have their wings clipped, I don't know. But I do believe that they will get the opportunity to taste pain and death. That would only be "just".
Regards,
El Harris
made show of them openly. |
| | 2009/9/25 0:36 | Profile | elharris
Member
Joined: 2009/8/10
Posts: 59
| | Re: | | Quote:
To ccrider:
If you will look two posts before your post, elharris stated that he believed in the Second Coming, but not the Rapture.
I was responding to elharris, and any other posters that responded after his post. If I included you in error, then by all means, I apologize.
Walter, you included me in error, I never said I don't believe that when Jesus comes, that there will be living believers who are faithful in him, who will be gathered together with the resurrected dead.
I do not believe this event is a seperate event OUTSIDE of what all believers of all time looked forward to which was "The Resurrection", but is a "part" of it.
Regards,
El Harris
Sincerely,
Walter
|
| | 2009/9/25 8:11 | Profile | Heydave
Member
Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK
| | Re: | | Dear El Harris,
That's quite a long reply and I will try and respond to some of the points as follows. Obviously these scriptures in question, Mat 16:28 and Luke 9:27 are ones that have caused much debate as we can see from the different views on this thread, but I will try and briefly explain my understanding.
Quote:
Waltern made a statement, that what "immediately followed" gave the proper understanding of what those verses meant. However that interpretation was based on something that happened not "immediately", but 6 days later.
It's not the fact that it was six days later, but the fact that Matthew links this to previous verse by saying 'after six days' that I think is significant.
Quote:
First of all the gospels are not written to always make everything Jesus said clear to us. They are simply a record of what he said and did. Jesus often spoke in parables and mysteries, which were only later revealed to his disciples, with much being not understood till after his resurrection. The writers of the Gospels rarely give and interpretation of what Jesus said, unless Jesus gave it.
Yes I agree with your point, but also we have to consider that when Matthew wrote this record (by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) he now had insight into what Jesus meant (post pentecost) and therefore what and how he chose to record the various events were intended to impart (to us who read now) understanding. He did not just record events without any thought. He by the Spirit was being very precise in teaching and instructing.
Quote:
Every single person standing there hearing this at the time, is dead. The only one that would not be dead is Satan who was working on Peter, to try and undermine, what Jesus had been preaching.
But when Jesus addressed Satan earlier speaking through Peter He address him as 'Satan'. It was clear who He was addressing. When Jesus said 'There are some standing here..' I think to conclude that he was speaking other than to those who were physically there is guessing. You are free to believe that, but I consider there is no evidence.
Can I give an illustration (purely made up please understand :-)):
I say to say to a group of people 'some of you will see me get a honour from the Queen of England soon' and then six days later two of that group were at my house when an official of the Queen turned up to personally hand me a letter stating that I had been awarded a special honour. It would be understood from this event that this fulfilled what I said would happen. However it would be officially bestowed on me at a cermony in six months time.
The rest of what you wrote about the angelic and demonic realm may well be true, but I think has no connection with the passage in question.
I don't want to make any more of this or be dogmnatic about the correct interpretation, but that's how I see it. Maybe I see things too simply. It probably does not matter if this is how you want to see it. The main thing is it does not conflict with the statements which Jesus made about His future return, which is a definite fact, taught by scripture and believed by the church for 2,000 years.
_________________
Dave
|
| | 2009/9/25 11:13 | Profile |
| | Re: | |
To elharris & Deepthinker, and others:
As we read Matthew 16 we realize that [color=990000]all of Jesus disciples were with Him on this day.[/color]
5. And when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread.
(Matthew 16:4)
In Matthew 16:20 Jesus commands his disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ, the Messiah, the Seed of the Woman:
20. Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
Matthew 16:20
In Matthew 16:24 Jesus again is referring to all of His disciples:
24. Then said Jesus unto his disciples
.
Then, in Matthew 16:28 Jesus tells His Disciples that[color=990000] some of them, that are standing there with him at this moment----- that before they die, they will see the Son of man coming in His kingdom.[/color]
28. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
[b]Six days later some of His disciples (Peter, James and John) (ie not all of his disciples, only some) saw the fulfillment of this prophecy before their very eyes:[/b]
(Matthew 17:1-8)
[color=990000][b]And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2. And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. [/color][/b] 4. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. 6. And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7. And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. 8. And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
On their way down the mountain, Jesus charged them ([b]the 3 disciples that he alluded to in Matthew 16:28)[/b] that they should tell the vision to no man, [u]until the Son of Man (Jesus Christ) arose from the dead (on Resurrection Sunday, the first day of the week, on the Day of the feast of Firstfruits)[/u]
Matthew 17:9)
9. And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. 10. And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
To simplify this for you, I will put it into a modern day setting.
I own a business and employ 12 employees. When I am talking to the entire 12, I tell them that there are some of them (not all of them) that I am talking to today, that before they die, will get a raise. Then, six days later I give 3 of my employees a raise. When the 3 receive their raises, I command them to be quiet, and tell no one.
I know that is an over simplification, but perhaps that is needed to bring clarity to this event for some.
Sincerely,
Walter
Quote:
elharris wrote:
Hey Dave,
Dear Brother, thank you for you gracious disagreement.
However I would like to point something out if you don't mind.
You said:
Quote:
Can I say respectfully that your conclusion that Jesus was speaking to angels and the unseen world is just conjecture and speculation. There is nothing in the text to suggest this and no reason for anyone who was present to consider this. Indeed if Matthew or Luke knew this to be so they would have made it clear for us.
However what Matthew does do VERY clearly is in the next verse (next chapter, but there were no chapter divisions in the original) is to say 'Now AFTER SIX DAYS Jesus took Peter, James and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain'. The transfiguration. So SIX DAYS AFTER WHAT? It can only be six days after he had just spoken to them in the previous verses about some not tasting death before seeing His kingdom. So Matthew makes a clear link between these events to show us they are connected, so we can understand what Jesus meant.
So what waltern posted makes sense:
Waltern made a statement, that what "immediately followed" gave the proper understanding of what those verses meant. However that interpretation was based on something that happened not "immediately", but 6 days later.
Walter never quoted or read what Jesus said in the SAME converstation as the verses in question, just 4 or 5 sentences previous.
Context deals with not only what is written after words but what is written before.
In this case what Jesus said in the same conversation and at the same time on the same day, would have a lot more bearing on what he meant, than what he may have done or said 6 days later.
You said: [i]Can I say respectfully that your conclusion that Jesus was speaking to angels and the unseen world is just conjecture and speculation. There is nothing in the text to suggest this and no reason for anyone who was present to consider this. Indeed if Matthew or Luke knew this to be so they would have made it clear for us.
[/i]
First of all the gospels are not written to always make everything Jesus said clear to us. They are simply a record of what he said and did. Jesus often spoke in parables and mysteries, which were only later revealed to his disciples, with much being not understood till after his resurrection. The writers of the Gospels rarely give and interpretation of what Jesus said, unless Jesus gave it.
Secondly Jesus from the outset, even before he actually started his ministry in preacing the Kingdome of God, spoke to angels, devils and the unseen world, for God himself is unseen. This was a constant pattern with him, way before the verses in question.
Thirdly, the previous context, just a few sentences before he spoke to the unseen world.
The verses in question are Mat 16:28 and Luke 9:27. However the same record is recorded in Mark 9:1.
As I said, Waltern looks at what took place 6 days later, rather than looking back in the same conversation for the interpretation or understanding.
Can we look here at what immediately preceeded what Jesus said.
Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
But he turned, and said unto Peter, [b]Get thee behind me, Satan:[/b] thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. [b]Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.[/b]
Every single person standing there hearing this at the time, is dead. The only one that would not be dead is Satan who was working on Peter, to try and undermine, what Jesus had been preaching.
I got to tell you that there have been quite a few times in my life, when I've had people talking to me, and I KNEW it was Satan (i.e. a devil spirit). I have addressed spirits in this manner before.
For instance I work with two children who are 6 and 11. There are times, I know I'm dealing with a child, and times when I know I'm dealing with something completely different. Since one child is a girl and the other a boy, I call the other entity at work Mr. Ugly and Miss Meany. These children get what I can only call "VILE". And what stares back at me through their eyes, I know is not them.
Jesus could not "just" have been talking to Peter, since the incident right before this, was completely on the opposite side of the coin.
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
When Peter said this, he was speaking by the spirit of God. But when Peter tried to rebuke the Lord and undermine the truth, he was speaking by the spirit of the devil or Satan. The words that come out of our mouth determine what spirit we are speaking by.
At one point Jesus told Peter, that Satan desired to have him, so he could sift him like wheat. This showed that Satan had place at that time in Peter. These are invisible demonic spirits, and I am sure, that the devil did not leave it up to a subordinate to try and work in those closest to Jesus, to get to Jesus.
And again in Mark, the record is the same. And you should appreciate this, because of what you were saying about chapter and verse divisions. Because they split the same conversation off at the very last sentence and put it in Chapter 9.
Mark 8: 31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.
But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, [b]Get thee behind me, Satan:[/b] for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Mark 9:1 1 [b]And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.[/b]
Jesus spoke a lot of the Gospel in mysteries, that would only later be revealed after he was raised from the dead. This was why he spoke so many things in parable and mysteries.
1 Cor 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, [b]nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:[/b]
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 [b]Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.[/b]
Jesus spoke a lot of things in parables and mysteries, because he did not want the princes, satan, devil spirits, to know how they would ultimately be defeated, and what their ultimate fate would be. They had to conspire to possess men to betray and murder him, to murder innocent blood, so that he could be the perfect and fianal sacrifice for sin.
You know at that time people believed in the gods and in spirits and evil spirits, but they did not really know a lot about them. Jesus put them on display.
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility [b]and worshipping of angels,[/b] intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Jesus revealed that the demons or devil spirits, the principalities and powers, who pawned themselves off as "gods" to mankind were really just angels.
1 Cor 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, [b]they sacrifice to devils, and not to God:[/b] and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
Jesus spoke to the unseen world all the time. I don't think I need to put all the verses here, as you can type in "devil" in the Bible search, and see how many times he spoke both to the devil himself, and to demonic spirits.
When he said what he did to Satan, Satan would have thought he was talking to his disciples and wondered if the son of man was going to come into his kingdom in that generation.
I know he knew who he was talking to, but that he would not have done it directly. I can imagine how he felt about this being having dealt with him from the beginning. And now knowing that he was going to defeat him, but that he could not just come out and say exactly how or why, or it would thwart the whole plan.
But to get a little secret dig in, is something that we may all have done in situations with individuals, that we could not reveal our true feelings or the total truth of what we were thinking. And I believe this is what he was doing. Talking to one person but in truth you are really saying what you are saying for the benefit of someone else, and they go "HUH"?
Luke is a little different in that in the same event, he does not mention what Jesus says to Peter.
However the incident before has Jesus giving his 12 disciples the power to heal and cast out devils, and the incident right after the transfiguration, Jesus is rebuking a devil and casting him out of a young boy.
IF we can be made immortal, then there is no reason why an angel could not be stripped of his powers and made mortal. I believe that the first century believers knew this to be a truth.
Revelation speaks of the devil and his angels being thrown down to earth, and having but a short time. This seems to take place either at the same time, or shortly after the last trump, when I believe the resurrection and the gathering together of the living (called the rapture) takes place.
It says there that, their place is found no more in heaven, for that to be the case, then their power to FLY back and forth from earth to heaven would have to be taken away. Weather they be turned mortal, or just have their wings clipped, I don't know. But I do believe that they will get the opportunity to taste pain and death. That would only be "just".
Regards,
El Harris
made show of them openly.
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| | 2009/9/25 11:40 | |
| | Re: | | Quote:
Why don't you give us your interpretation of the scripture that you posted instead waiting for others to reply so you can 'correct' them
I am not interested in correcting anyone, not my place, rather it is interesting to show forth ALL the scriptures instead of our pet verses that we use to support our doctrine. So far from what I have read. No one has really touched on what Jesus said, everyone has danced around it.
"There be some standing here that shall not taste of death till they see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom".
Question: Are "some" of those that stood around Him that heard this alive today?
Question: Are we to interpret "death" to mean something spiritual? If so, then why only "some" and not all?
Question: Are we to interpret the coming of the Son of man in His Kingdom to that of the day of Pentecost?
Question: Or is Jesus saying exactly what He meant?
I notice that we pick and chose what we want to interpret when we don't understand something, but why is it that we don't interpret the Sun turning black and the Moon turning to blood? We believe exactly what He said concerning those elements, but we strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.
Not being hard, sharing my thoughts, questions and ideas. Please do the same without accusations beloved.
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| | 2009/9/25 12:19 | |
| | Re: | |
To Deepthinker:
Jesus gave "some of his Disciples" a "vision" of his glory and majesty that would occur at His second coming, 2,000 years later.
Your interpretation of this event puts you on the outside of Christian Orthodoxy. However, the "spirit" that has revealed this to you, that "teaches you", does not agree with me nor the Doctrine found throughout the Bible, nor the Doctrine of the believing Church, since the beginning.
But, far be it from me to correct you on this issue, or the many other issues that places you outside of Christian Orthodoxy.
Sincerely,
Walter
Quote:
DeepThinker wrote:
Quote:
Why don't you give us your interpretation of the scripture that you posted instead waiting for others to reply so you can 'correct' them
I am not interested in correcting anyone, not my place, rather it is interesting to show forth ALL the scriptures instead of our pet verses that we use to support our doctrine. So far from what I have read. No one has really touched on what Jesus said, everyone has danced around it.
"There be some standing here that shall not taste of death till they see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom".
Question: Are "some" of those that stood around Him that heard this alive today?
Question: Are we to interpret "death" to mean something spiritual? If so, then why only "some" and not all?
Question: Are we to interpret the coming of the Son of man in His Kingdom to that of the day of Pentecost?
Question: Or is Jesus saying exactly what He meant?
I notice that we pick and chose what we want to interpret when we don't understand something, but why is it that we don't interpret the Sun turning black and the Moon turning to blood? We believe exactly what He said concerning those elements, but we strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.
Not being hard, sharing my thoughts, questions and ideas. Please do the same without accusations beloved.
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| | 2009/9/25 12:30 | |
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