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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine :  Christians must NOT be be called a sinner!!!

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roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Just for the record, I wanted to say that I do agree that as Christians, we are Saints. I agree wholeheartedly with that.

BUT, this idea in logic's mind(it seems) is void of any sense of remaining sin within the saint. This is a dangerous slope to be one as it will either produce self righteousness and arrogance, or it will produce hopelessness(I know because I have been through both, sometimes in the same day or hour).

The Biblical view is best summarized by Luther in his phrase- "simul justus et pecator"(at the same time justified and sinful). Anyone who is honest with themselves will see this.

As with many things in Scripture that point to a future consummation of a present reality we need to maintain the "already but not yet" view.

We are saints, but there is still a monster within that wars against the Spirit, to deny that is to deny Scripture. But there is coming a day in which that will be done away with in the resurrection. That is the hope we await.

Logic's view boils down to good advice, "do this, don't do that so that God will accept you"(similar to the song about Santa Claus by the way). Which is completely self serving and based on fear of judgment rather than love and produces an attitude similar to that of the older brother in the parable of the Prodigal; "all these years I have served you and you never..."

But the Gospel is Good News that Jesus Christ has done something so God will accept us. To this we respond in acts of service to God out of gratitude(i.e. those who have been forgiven much love much). There is no room for even hinting at our own righteousness, and we are more like the Prodigal who receives what the father gives him, and doesn't presume upon it because he did something to earn it.

After all didn't Paul say that Christ did what the Law could not do, [i]because[/i] it was weak through the flesh(i.e. bring about a righteousness that could stand before God)?


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2009/9/24 20:40Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

I agree RoaringLamb.

Also, the idea that if God commands something it must be possible for us to fulfill that commandment is not Biblically supported. In fact, a main argument of Romans and Galatians is no man can be justified by keeping the Law. Why? Because we can't. It's impossible for us to keep the Law perfectly. If we could, then Paul's statement that no man will be justified by the Law would be presumption.

But, what wonderful news it is that Christ has fulfilled the Law. He lived the life we should have lived, and died the death we should have died.

Does this promote ungodliness? God forbid. According to Paul's writing in Titus 3, this amazing grace is the very thing that motivates us to good works.


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2009/9/24 20:52Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Taylor, Roaringlamb: I am not sure I got that out of what Logic said (It is hard to read 10 pages of posts and not miss something), but I do agree with what you have said. We cannot be lured back under the law by trying to do this or that, not do this or that, in hopes of appeasing or pleasing God in our own works. We cannot deny that we can and do sometimes still struggle with sin. I don't agree with a view of duality of natures (the well known white dog / black dog idea often incorrectly derived from Romans chapter 7 where Paul is expressing the futility of trying to be righteous by doing his best to keep the law), but I do know that the monster of the flesh and the still unrenewed mind are the arena in which we are tempted. There are important Biblical safegaurds that we as Christians should have in place that help us to overcome in these areas. (Obviously it is the Holy Spirit and His power that ultimately allows us to overcome) Such things as personal accountability by intimate fellowship with a local body of believers, regular disciplines of prayer and time in the Word, etc., help us to overcome in these areas.

In spite of all of these things, when I was born again God declared me righteous in His sight, and so that is what I am. I am no longer sinner, but saint. Having my own righteousness?? Never! Anything I can do in myself is filthy rags in God's sight. What I become through Jesus Christ is a thing of beauty in His eyes.


_________________
Travis

 2009/9/24 21:27Profile
JCGarc55
Member



Joined: 2004/3/1
Posts: 103


 Re: Christians must NOT be be called a sinner!!!

Is it possible that we are worried too much how we see ourselves and not enough how God sees us? The only way any of us can accurately see ourselves correctly is through the Light of His Word. When the Word of God is presented to us, it exposes the intents and motives of our hearts (Hebrews 4:12). I know I need that Word to expose me in that way because in myself I get blinded at times. So many times I've heard Christians say to 'forgive yourself' or to 'believe in yourself', etc. I don't believe the emphasis should be on how we see ourselves or how others do, but on how God sees us at the given time. My heart is deceptive and I need to be asking God how He sees me (ps 139:23-24). This trusting in self is dangerous and it's a form of psychology (self-esteem). I rather trust what the Lord is saying to me each day. I don't know about everyone else here but I know the Lord speaks to me through different examples in His Word. At times, He'll show me through His Word that I'm a self-righteous pharisee and that I need to repent. Other times He'll just let me know He's with me in the midst of my storm. So, for me
it's not always the Saints that he compares me to. So, it doesn't matter what I call myself (sinner or saint)or what anyone else calls me, but on what He says about me through His Word each day.

 2009/9/25 0:03Profile









 Re:

If we say we have no sin we lie... and lying is a sin. This is Biblical.

Anyone ever wonder why I dont come here anymore? I finally got tired of the headaches I would get from all the debating and arguing over stupid stuff. It's my own fault for participating, I'm not pointing fingers.

But every once in a while I stop by to catch up... and there is always some debate going on that in the long run: WHO CARES?

You think you don't sin? Good for you. Present that to the Holy God of the Universe. Stand yourself right up there next to Him and compare yourself... since you both are sinless. Let's see how you do.

This thread is nothing but PRIDE PRIDE PRIDE... and it stinketh.

If we say we are without sin... WE LIE.

It can't be any clearer than that. You can quote the verse about "being perfect as Christ is perfect" all day long... why dont you open up a commentary written by a respected theologian like, oh I dont know... Matthew Henry... and see what that passage actually means in the CONTEXT of scripture.

You'll find you're wrong.

Going to get some Tylenol now.... have fun with your petty debates over nothing.

Krispy

 2009/9/25 6:57









 Re:

.... and before someone twists my words, we CAN enter His courts. But not because we are sinless, but because Christ was sinless. We are nothing, He is everything.

On your best day are your a dirt bag, and so I am. But praise God there is One who didn't sin, not even once a month. And because of Him we are accepted. Left on our own... to quote Keith Green... "HA!"

Krispy

 2009/9/25 7:13
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
.... and before someone twists my words, we CAN enter His courts. But not because we are sinless, but because Christ was sinless. We are nothing, He is everything.

On your best day are your a dirt bag, and so I am. But praise God there is One who didn't sin, not even once a month. And because of Him we are accepted. Left on our own... to quote Keith Green... "HA!"



Amen.


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2009/9/25 9:02Profile









 Re:

Everyone who is born again is a saint. This is the qualification of the term in my opinion. Nothing more than this. When we start defining it in terms of how much or how little one sins we miss the point. When we start threads that seemingly demand that we make a choice between the term sinner or saint and debate on that rigid premise then we have cheapened Christ who is the sole reason we are called saints.

Many people who are born again and say 'I too am a sinner' are not implying they are not a saint, they are saying that they are not perfected and spotless from sin or the POTENTIAL TO SIN. A born again christian will have a regenerate heart of flesh. How this process happens is wrapped up in relationship with Christ which is unique to each saint. It gets a little old when we start defining everything on one theological premise then start to compare our righteousness to the most ideal form of it's definition. I may struggle with sin more than one person and not as much as another. That doesn't mean I'm any more or less a saint than anyone else. There's a real danger in boasting of how little we may sin and just as much a danger in feeling defeated if we seem to struggle more than others. Don't look at your brethren or their theology to define your process of regeneration, LOOK AT CHRIST THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH. The One who paid the price to defeat sin and the works of satan is the One worthy of our attention in our journey in regeneration. If we have a relationship with Christ the natural byproduct of this is looking more like Him which covers and fulfills everything. Constantly conpartmentalizing attributes of rightousness and focusing on that can become dangerously self driven and takes the focus off of the Teacher, Counselor, and Advocate that we have in Christ.

I will determine to let my relationship with Christ dictate my righteousness and the fruit thereof.

 2009/9/25 9:44









 Re:

ccrider... you nailed it with that. Although I am sure the argument will rage on (because some people would rather win the battle than be right), there really isnt any argument left after what you just said.

Krispy

 2009/9/25 10:23









 Re:

Yes I totally agree that we should not be called sinners. We are called to be saints. I think it's the Catholic/Charismatic movement that submitted that idea into the churches. We need to thrust that out by the Spirit.

 2009/9/25 12:25





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