| Poster | Thread | Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
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| | Re: | | Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:Quote:
I am justified by my faith
So if you are justified(declared righteous) by your faith, why do you put so much emphasis on works(i.e. not sinning)as the means by which God accepts people?
It isn't the means by which God accepts people, that would be our faith.
The being sinless part is only to justify God in His command.
Since God commands us not to sin, that implies we can stop sinning.
If you say that you can't, you call God a liar.
If you really can't, then God is a tyrant, commanding that which He know is imposible and condemning for what we can't do.
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What did Christ's death do?
It made a way for Christians to be forgiven, and to have a loving relationship with the Father; it takes our guilt away.
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I am only asking because it seems that some times you contradict yourself. Before you used to feel that Christ only died to justify Himself and that it had no bearing on the Christian(much like Finney)
That is foreign, I don't ever remember thinking that.
I do remember saying, "Christ's obedience to the law could do no more than justify himself. His obedience to the law can never be imputed to us. It is naturally impossible for him to obey on our behalf as a proxy.
This doctrine intends that Christ owed no obedience to the law for Himself, and therefore his obedience to the law was superfluous.
He was born under the law just as every other person. (Galatians 4:4-5).
Christ would have sinned had he not been perfectly obedient, if not obedient, he would have sinned. It follows that He owed obedience to the law, just as any other man.
Furthermore, if Jesus obeyed the law as our substitute, our own return to personal obedience would not be insisted upon us as an essential part of our salvation."
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...and I know we are all growing in our understanding of Scripture, I just want to be sure of where you stand on this, so I understand you better rather than jumping to unfair conclusions.
Thanx
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By the way, I don't think that a truly born again person would ever say, "awesome now I can sin all I want to!"(I'm not suggesting that you have implied that, I just wanted to clarify that point).
I didn't imply that, but, if it was true that "We sin, and are sinned against [b]because[/b] of the Fall."
That would take the blame off us and put it on another.
Fact is, that we sin [b]because[/b] we choose to, not out of necessity |
|  2009/9/24 18:10 | Profile | Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791
| | Re: | | Quote:
TaylorOtwell wrote:Quote:
Furhtermore, I will not deny my sins (which I repent of quickly), therefore I will acknowledge them; and it does not hurt to ask for forgivness again as I already have.
So, corporately, we confess our sins [b]daily[/b] (since the prayer is a daily example: give us [b]this day[/b] our [b]daily[/b] bread), not because we have actually daily sinned, but because it "does not hurt"?
You don't have to pray that every day.
That prayr is more of a "guide line" for prayer.
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Would you encourage children to ask for forgiveness every day for a sin they committed against their parents 5 years ago and of which they were assured pardon from their parents? I mean, it doesn't hurt, right?
Again, no need to pray that every day.
The child asking for forgiveness of which they were assured pardon, it would not be so much of needing confermation of foregiveness, but of rememberance; it is not bad to remember. It is humbeling to admit failiure; remembering the facts of the past.
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I actually agree that Christians are not typically referred to as "sinners" in the Scriptures - the usual term is "saints".
That is good.
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I'm just wondering how we make sense of certain passages if a daily warfare with sin is not a reality for the true Christian.
Did you read my opening post of this thread?
That is how to make sense of it.
Furthermore, it shouldn't be a daily warfare with sin, but of temptation which is the reality of it all. |
| | 2009/9/24 18:19 | Profile | jimp
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Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481
| | Re: | | hi, it is a wonderful thing to have people here who are greater than the apostle Paul who called himself the cheifest of sinners.jimp |
| | 2009/9/24 18:37 | Profile | rainydaygirl
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Joined: 2008/10/27
Posts: 742
| | Re: | | Viewing Sin Rightly
God wants us to walk in OBEDIENCE, not victory. Often at the root of our struggle with sin is that our ATTITUDE toward sin is more self-centered than God centered. We are more concerned about our own victory over sin than we are about the fact that our sins GRIEVE THE HEART OF GOD. We tend to hate failure because we are success oriented, NOT because we know our sin is an offense to a Person. We never see sin aright until we see it as against God. All sin is against God in the sense that HIS command has been broken, HIS heart has been violated, HIS authority has been despised, HIS government set at naught. Until we see this and deal with it we will not consistently walk in holiness. Focus on a life that is pleasing to our Father, and the joy of victory over sin will certainly be a byproduct. (excerpted from The Pursuit of Holiness, by Jerry Bridges)
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Just something to consider
rdg |
| | 2009/9/24 18:45 | Profile | Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791
| | Re: | | Quote:
jimp wrote:
hi, it is a wonderful thing to have people here who are greater than the apostle Paul who called himself the cheifest of sinners.jimp
If Paul actually [b]meant[/b] it as fact instead of regret for his past, then that which he said in [b]1Tim 1:9[/b] [color=990000]Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,[/color]
Then He is claiming not to be righteous and that the law is made for such as he.
Does anybody read the Scriptures in context? |
| | 2009/9/24 18:48 | Profile | roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California
| | Re: | | Quote:
Since God commands us not to sin, that implies we can stop sinning.
You can go ahead and keep trying brother.
One thing I have noticed with yourself and others who hold a "sinless" doctrine is that things that are REALLY sin are changed into other things. Like when I asked you about your thought life, and you said that you weren't responsible for your thoughts. Yet Christ in Matthew 5 makes it a point to show His listeners that it is not just the outward act(adultery), but also the thought of it. He also made it clear that they were indeed responsible for it.
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It made a way for Christians to be forgiven, and to have a loving relationship with the Father; it takes our guilt away.
But how does this make up for the Law being broken?
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Christ's obedience to the law could do no more than justify himself
Why would Christ need to be justified? He was already without sin. The Biblical sense of justification is "to make righteous".
Are you saying that Christ needed to be made righteous even though He was God in the flesh?
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His obedience to the law can never be imputed to us.
Ok, who fulfills it then? Who makes up for the broken Law prior to our faith? Does God simply overlook that?
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It is naturally impossible for him to obey on our behalf as a proxy.
2Corinthians 5:21 ESV For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
So was it impossible for our sin to be imputed to Christ? Obviously, Christ committed no sin, so He was not made sin for Himself. He was made to be sin by imputation, so that His righteousness might be imputed to those who would have faith in Him.
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Christ would have sinned had he not been perfectly obedient, if not obedient, he would have sinned.
I don't even know where to begin with this except to say, you have NO Scriptural basis for this and are in danger of denying the sinlessness of Christ. He was not sinless because He was obedient, He was(and is) God so He was sinless.
God died on the cross, to fulfill His demands, or as it says in Romans 4:25 "(Jesus)was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification."
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Furthermore, if Jesus obeyed the law as our substitute, our own return to personal obedience would not be insisted upon us as an essential part of our salvation."
Personal obedience is not what saves us from God's wrath. Faith in Christ and His work is. We obey [i]because[/i] of what He has done out of gratitude.
It seems to me that you are saying we should obey so we can be right with God, or make Him accept us. That would be one of the most selfish things in the world, and also the most dangerous as it makes you the means of justification and pays no heed to Christ and His righteousness.
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Fact is, that we sin because we choose to, not out of necessity
I don't know about that. There are times where someone says something to me, or does something to me and without thinking about it or choosing to, I have a proud thought, or a demeaning thought about that person. Or without thinking, I say something that is not loving and gracious and I didn't really put much thought into choosing to do it. It just happened.
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| | 2009/9/24 18:50 | Profile | Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
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| | Re: | | Quote:
rainydaygirl wrote:
Viewing Sin Rightly
God wants us to walk in OBEDIENCE, not victory.
[b]1Corinth 15:55[/b] [color=990000]O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your [b]victory[/b]?
[b]:56[/b] The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.[/color]
Since the sting (that which kills you) of death is sin and the law (that which proves sin) is sin's strength, and sin does not have the victory, then we must have the victory over sin, death, and the grave through Christ (verse 57).
Furthermore, obedience is the victory over sin.
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Often at the root of our struggle with sin is that our ATTITUDE toward sin is more self-centered than God centered.
No, our ATTITUDE toward sin is strong because it is Christ centerd and HIS attitude toward sin is strong.
The reason that one does not have victory over sin is because they doen't think he can have it.
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We are more concerned about our own victory over sin than we are about the fact that our sins GRIEVE THE HEART OF GOD.
This does no tmake any sense at all.
The only reason that we want victory is because sin GRIEVEs THE HEART OF GOD
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We tend to hate failure because we are success oriented, NOT because we know our sin is an offense to a Person.
That does not have to be the rule.
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We never see sin aright until we see it as against God. All sin is against God in the sense that HIS command has been broken, HIS heart has been violated, HIS authority has been despised, HIS government set at naught.
Since God hates sin so much, wouldn't you think that He would grant us victory over it?
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Focus on a life that is pleasing to our Father, and the joy of victory over sin will certainly be a byproduct.
Yep. |
| | 2009/9/24 19:17 | Profile | rainydaygirl
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Joined: 2008/10/27
Posts: 742
| | Re: | | Thank you logic for sharing YOUR opinion on the excerpt I shared . As for me, I plan to ask God to help me view sin as He does so that I may truly learn to walk in His ways, focusing on Him and not self. I do believe God has given us victory over sin through His son Jesus Christ, but I also know that I contend with the flesh daily. That is why I want to learn to view sin as God does, every time sin comes up I don't want it to be about just choosing not to sin, but the realization that my actions will hurt the very person I profess to love, Jesus.
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We are more concerned about our own victory over sin than we are about the fact that our sins GRIEVE THE HEART OF GOD.
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You wrote in response to the above statement: This does no tmake any sense at all.
The only reason that we want victory is because sin GRIEVEs THE HEART OF GOD
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My response to you is that sadly this is just not true, I know many professing Christians who do not even give one thought to the fact that their sin hurts or grieves God, they just don't want to end up in hell or they want to be looked upon as being a good person. Whether their actions grieve Gods heart or not never even enters into their minds.
rdg |
| | 2009/9/24 19:43 | Profile | twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri
| | Re: | | Good evening all!
I think I would have to lean a little bit more toward Logic on this topic. I think Logic, if I have not missed it in trying to read this LONG thread, you began by trying to make a distinction between sinners (unregenerate, lost people), and those who have been made righteous by the blood of Jesus Christ. I would have to agree. We used to sing a song with the line, "I am just a sinner saved by grace." I always felt like asking, "Well, which is it? Sinner or saved by grace?"
First of all, there is no pride in accepting what God says of you as true and expressing it, no matter how unlikely it may seem to me. Who was the meekest person on the face of the earth???
Moses was. How do we know this? Because Moses himself said it. Numbers 12:3. Was it arrogance for Moses to proclaim this? Not at all. If it was what God said about Moses, then true humility is found in submitting to what God says.
Before I was born again, I was dead in trespasses and sins. After I was born again, I became a new creature. What does God say about me after I am born again. Romans 3:22, Romans 4:6, Romans 10:3 (This one is the counterpart of Numbers 12:3 in the new testament. We submit to the righteousness of God and do not try to establish our own. We take on His righteousness.) See 1 Cor. 1:30. 2 Cor. 5:21, We have become the righteousness of God in Christ. When God looks at me, His son, He sees me as wearing the same robes of righteousness as Christ Himself. I accept that, no matter how unlikely it seems to me sometimes.
I helps to understand, like Nicodemus in John 3, that it is my Spirit that is born again, that is perfected forever as in Hebrews 10:14. My mind is not perfected yet. Praise God it will be at the resurrection, but for now it is not. But, I can renew it, Romans 12:2.
Yes, sometimes I struggle with the flesh. I am always capable of sinning, and probably miss the mark way more often than I know. To him who knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin, right? It is also entirely possible that I can sin and not know I have done it. Has God ever revealed to you that something you previously thought benign was really sin? What would have happened if you had failed to confess that one, and what if there are more things??
Praise God I no longer live under the law. I live under a new covenant and a new priesthood. He took away the old that He might establish the new, Hebrews 8:13. Sure, if I fail to keep one jot or tittle of the law I become guilty of all. I don't worry about that because I am not under the law.
Paul? (I think so but some don't) said in Hebrews 10 that under the law there was a constant remembrance made of sins due to the inability of the law to ever purge sins. If the law with its sacrifices could have purged sins, then the offerings would have ceased to be offered. The offerings would have made themselves unnecessary. Jesus was just such an offering. He offered one offering for sin, and the worshipers, once purged, now have no more conscience of sins. You might even say no more awareness of sins.
You see, I live in the constant knowledge of who I am in Christ. It is not arrogant to say I am righteous, and it is not humility to constantly claim to be a sinner. I know my righteousness is not my own. How can I be arrogant in claiming to have received from God something I was so obviously incapable of doing myself? I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, and in recognizing this I have victory and power over sin. Have you ever tried to stop committing some sin by constantly thinking about how deeply you are mired in that sin? I have been forgiven, cleansed, set free, regenerated, filled with the power of the Holy Spirit, made a new creature, crucified the old man, and walk in the righteous state that Jesus shed blood to purchase for me.
In my opinion, that is the difference between saying I am a sinner and saying I am a saint. I will never again claim to be a sinner. I will call myself what Jesus calls me, a saint. I don't see that as arrogant, only accepting what was said of me by someone else (Jesus).
Is it still possible for me to be tempted and sin? Absolutely. Is it possible for me to live the next 50 years and never sin? Hmmm, I really don't think so. Praise God I have an advocate that has borne the sentence of my sin in Himself so that I can be free.
Well, that is my 2 cents.
Travis
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Travis
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| | 2009/9/24 20:20 | Profile | Leo_Grace
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Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703
| | Re: | | This is a long thread, and I would like to summarize what I have gleaned so far:
Logic, who started this thread, says (I am quoting verbatim from his many posts):
1. Christians must NOT be be called a sinner!!!
2. I may sin every once in a long while, hopefully not even once a month.
3. There is no such thing as a righteous sinner.
4. Did you read my opening post?
I do not love sin.
I do not sin habitually.
I do not practice sin.
I am not under the dominion of sin.
I do not employ themselves in sin.
Therefore I am not a sinner.
Just because I might sin every once in a long while does not make me a sinner.
5. All I'm saying is that Christians should not call themselves sinners;
On the other hand, Jesus, while teaching his disciples, told them this parable:
[color=CC3300]Lk 18:10-14 Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: God, I thank you that I am not like other menrobbers, evildoers, adulterersor even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get."
But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, [u]God, have mercy on me, a sinner[/u]. "
I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.[/color]
Here, Jesus instructed his disciples to follow the example of the humble tax collector who called himself a sinner. Jesus wants all his disciples to be humble and honest about themselves.
Who are we to believe? Logic or Jesus?
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| | 2009/9/24 20:20 | Profile |
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