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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : my theory on predestination

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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
Where in the world did you get that?


Good question! ;-)
Quote:
Does that make any sense?


Hmmmm....It was a play on words...

Philippians 2:9-11

"Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name; 10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Notes from my study bible (MaCarthur):
"The entire intelligent universe is called to worship Jesus Christ as Lord (cf.Ps 2). This mandate includes the angels in heaven (Rev.4:2-9), the spirits of the redeemed (Rev. 4:10,11), obedient believers on earth (Romans. 10:9), the disobedient rebels on earth (2 Thess. 1:7-9), demons and lost humanity in hell (1 Pet. 3:18-22). The Gr. word for "confess" means to "acknowledge," "affirm", or "agree" which is what everyone will eventually do in response to Christ's lordship, willingly and blessedly or unwillingly and painfully."

In the judgement will [i][b]anybody[/b][/i] be able to question God as to His 'fairness'?

We don't deserve Jesus, not a one of us.
And yet He lives and calls all men to Himself to be saved. "For God so loved the world...."
So I guess my point is that it seems to be a strange thing that we want to try and figure out the mind of God on this.... "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do [i][b]for His good pleasure[/b][/i] (Philippians 2:13) I know that verse relates to working out our salvation, but the principle is the same; God will do as He pleases.

I think that if God was to reveal Himself right now in His manifold presence, in all His glory and splendour, this issue would be the furthest thing from our minds. Our 'freewill' is limited as is our understanding. It seems pretty plain in scripture that God has the final say on all matters, so why do we try and figure out the who's, what's, where's, when's and why's? If God was unjust (and He is not) and wiped us all out, what would we be able to do about it?

The silly statement I made was a rather weak attempt to point out the absurdity of this whole issue. I don't know which 'side' I fall into, I will let God decide if it is ever going to be any of my business or not. Right now my sense is "Mind your own business", probably what I should have done in the first place.

Let God be true and every man a liar.
P.S. All this is just personal opinion, and not a knock on anyone who holds to one form or another, please feel free to correct my thinking if I am in error. For a change of perspective in general:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=440&forum=40


_________________
Mike Balog

 2003/9/16 10:27Profile
VampireBite
Member



Joined: 2003/8/21
Posts: 17


 Re:

Quote:

nobody wrote:
If we choose and are not chosen then why did Christ say "I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH..." According to the Arminian he should have said "I'm hoping to build a church, just so long as all these free people will choose to cooperate with me."

Freewill is a great idea and it pleases man greatly. Unfortunately, Scripture doesn't give it much support.

How could Christ speak in parables and then explain that to some it was given to hear and others not? Then He also says that it is only those to whom He chooses to reveal the Father that will see Him.

God is loving, but also He has many other attributes to balance that with. Holiness being a big one. How can Paul say in Romans that maybe God just decided to create some for destruction so that the ones who recieve His mercy would glorify Him? He tells us not to question God's purposes because we don't yet see. Some day we will glorify God's holiness as he throws our friends and families into Hell. Imagine that turn in our miserable thinking.

Calvin was following the beliefs of many before him (Luther, Augustine, etc.) when he interpreted Scripture in a way that says the following:

None understandeth, none seek after God

God saw fit to retain a remnant of mankind for His purposes - to worship his Son for eternity

Christ laid down His life for His sheep

Those whom He begins a good work in - He will complete that work

No one is able to pluck them from the Father's hands

Calvinism makes good sense really. Ever heard an Arminian pray for the lost? Why should he bother if the man is truly free?

How could Jesus give us all free choice but not the disciples? He chose them, not vice versa. So we are all free but the twelve? I'm gonna play Arminian here and give their strongest argument-- "That's just not fair."

I think Calvinism doesn't get the respect it deserves these days. It is not a foolish system. It was the original Reformation Theology. The Roman Catholics hated it because it was so logical and difficult to argue against. They preferred Arminianism because it was "watered down" Protestanism in their view.

I challenge you to really read some deep material on this issue. There are many good resources on the web and in print. Try MacArthur's articles on Election on the biblebb website.



1. christ died for 'His sheep', all men are refrenced as sheep. (thy all like sheep have gone astray)

2. 'Those who begins a good work' in refrences those already saved, the good work mentioned isn't salvation, it is the completion of God's will which we freely reached out and grabbed.

3.no one is able to pluck them from my Father's hand. again them being people who freely accepted Christ as their Savior

4. Ever heard an Arminian pray for the lost? Why should he bother if the man is truly free? why, cause praying for the man and witnessing will show him what he needs through the power of the Holy Spirit.

5. How could Jesus give us all free choice but not the disciples? He chose them, not vice versa. the disciples followed Christ freely, they weren't forced to worship Him, it was free will choosing to worship him for the man He really was.

6. I'm gonna play Arminian here and give their strongest argument-- "That's just not fair."
was a nice attempt at a low blow, one that sucseeded.

7.I challenge you to really read some deep material on this issue. There are many good resources on the web and in print. Try MacArthur's articles on Election on the biblebb website. You want deep material,try reading God's word for yourself and not listening to what others tell you to beleive.

sorry to anyone i might have offended in my wording of my last post. i was rather busy and wasn't thinking about how others might veiw my words, if i offended you I apologize and ask forgiveness.

Love in Christ,

Will

 2003/9/16 14:18Profile
3John13
Member



Joined: 2003/9/13
Posts: 3
Utah

 Re:

”Question: If God already chose who will live in heaven and who will burn in hell, Why did God want us to go Preach?”


Here is the beautiful thing about trusting in Election.

Romans 10
13For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
15And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
"How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!"

God has Known His sheep since before the foundation of the world, (Rev 13:8).
NOTE: No. All people are not His sheep. Some are goats. (Matt 25:31-33) And these goats were under the impression that they had chosen Christ.

He has not only predestined their salvation (2 Thess 2:13), but has predestined the means in which they will come to this salvation.

That’s you. That’s me.

This is extremely liberating.
To me it is.
I’ve been a Christian for over 20 years and I remember very well being taught techniques to witnessing and how important it was to get a commitment to Christ now.
”I don’t care what you want. I’m not leaving you alone until you make a decision for Jesus.”

Because, hey, they could die tonight and it would be your fault because your didn’t push them hard enough. (Eze 3:18)

But, y’see, God has it all planned. All we have to do is be obedient.
We need to be ready to give an answer and if the person we’re talking to doesn’t want to pray to receive Christ right now God has maybe a dozen more folks in line to say something again. Or maybe a dozen more opportunities in the future for you to get another chance.

Dr D. James Kennedy, (A Presbyterian pastor. Calvinist), has the great ministry Evangelism Explosion. They have said that most people who come to Christ hear the gospel maybe ten times before they make a decision.
Some maybe less.
Some maybe more.

(A guy named William Fay has a good program too called “Share Jesus Without Fear”)

Don't you see how great this is?
We don't have to worry about it.
There is no fear that if we say something it will be useless. Or that we "blew it" if we get a negative response.
It's not up to us because it's not us saving anybody.
We just need to say something.

God does the working on peoples hearts. And in His sovereign grace He includes us in on the birthing of or own brothers and sisters.
But only God knows His own. You and I have no idea whom He chooses, (John 15:16), and are not allowed to make that decision on our own.
So we preach to all.
Because Christ died for literally all. (1 John 2:2).

 2003/9/16 15:32Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Will,

No offense taken Bro.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey
(A fellow Arminian who loves his Calvinist Brothers and Sisters)


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2003/9/16 18:32Profile
VampireBite
Member



Joined: 2003/8/21
Posts: 17


 Re:

since you brought it up.

Romans 10
13For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
15And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
"How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!"


did i misunderstand the simple english word "whoever". or does it mean everyone? it seems that everyone, meaning all people, can beleive freely and THATS why we must preach, so everyone hears about God. preaching shouldn't be for a few and only that few, the Bible says clearly here and other places all are free to accept His Grace.

Love in Christ,
Will

P.S. the acual original Greek word is "Pas" which means each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything from Thayers Greek Definitons

going to greek, life as a bible freak. ;-)

 2003/9/16 19:01Profile
3John13
Member



Joined: 2003/9/13
Posts: 3
Utah

 Re:

If I said "whomever walks through that door gets out of the building."
It does not automatically imply "everybody gets out of the building".

"whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

This isn't "Whoever...... will be saved"

This is actually a very select few.
It is those who have met the condition "...calls on the name of the Lord."

It is not "whosoever... shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)
It is "whosoever believes shall not perish but have eternal life."

My whole point is not that anybody who applies and steps forward will be selectively rejected.
It all lies in who has the ability to believe in the first place.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through _________, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The faith to believe and even see in the first place is a gift granted by God.
Without it nobody is even going to care about calling on the name of the Lord.

Romans 3
10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
12They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."

You ask if you misunderstood the simple English word "whoever"?
I ask you if I have misunderstood the simple English word "none".

 2003/9/16 20:46Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

It appears that 3John13 and Vampire have come to the same impass that most Calvanists and Arminianists run into.

I would encourage these two brothers(3John, I'm guessing that you are a male, forgive me if I'm wrong) in the Lord to agree to disagree.

I would suggest perhaps that we just give our opinions on this subject without trying to convince all the others of our position.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2003/9/16 21:50Profile
VampireBite
Member



Joined: 2003/8/21
Posts: 17


 wishing for a spiritual 2x4

Quote:

3John13 wrote:
If I said "whomever walks through that door gets out of the building."
It does not automatically imply "everybody gets out of the building".

"whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

This isn't "Whoever...... will be saved"

This is actually a very select few.
It is those who have met the condition "...calls on the name of the Lord."

It is not "whosoever... shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)
It is "whosoever believes shall not perish but have eternal life."

My whole point is not that anybody who applies and steps forward will be selectively rejected.
It all lies in who has the ability to believe in the first place.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through _________, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The faith to believe and even see in the first place is a gift granted by God.
Without it nobody is even going to care about calling on the name of the Lord.

Romans 3
10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
12They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."

You ask if you misunderstood the simple English word "whoever"?
I ask you if I have misunderstood the simple English word "none".



1. your saying anyone who walks out the door will exit the building is an open invitation to exit the building. all are told the reactoin for their action.

2.we are all given the faith required to trust in Christ by the Holy Spirit, not just some bunch of people who are prechosen, all of us. (mark 1:15
john 1:12)

3.The faith to believe and even see in the first place is a gift granted by God.
Without it nobody is even going to care about calling on the name of the Lord. we have the faith to beleive through the promting of the holy Spirit, we may choose to take or ignore that prompt but it is there for everyone who hears God's word.

4. Read Romans 3:9, it gives the context of the scripture passage:
(Rom 3:9) What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;


5. i think i have a good grasp on both the English and Greek terms used for "whoever" and as for none, well thats the time i have left.

Love in Christ,
Will

 2003/9/16 22:03Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: wishing for a spiritual 2x4

Your topic heading is unnecessary, careful brother.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2003/9/16 22:15Profile
nobody
Member



Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 64


 Re: CS Lewis once said...

I know no one is listening to this anymore - I haven't looked at it for a month, but just to point something out here.

Refer to the part below where a "Christian who goes by VampireBite????" told me not to bother reading other people's commentary on Scripture but simply read the Word myself.

I believe that reading the Word is important, but to paraphrase something C.S. Lewis once said- (and I only know this because I read him) How can you ignore the research and reasoning of the thousands of brilliant scholars of the past? It is very important to read these people's ideas to discover all the aspects of issues. Is that not the whole point of this website???

How many people have you met that have read their NIV cover-to-cover six times and still don't know much about what it actually says? I know many. There are difficult passages to interpret in almost every book that won't be resolved by John Doe who ignores the rest of the world and reads the verses to himself 50 times over. Iron sharpens iron - try sharpening a knife without rubbing it on anything.

 2003/10/16 18:44Profile





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