Poster | Thread | Lysa Member
Joined: 2008/10/25 Posts: 3699 East TN for now!
| Re: Lord help us all | | Quote:
waltern wrote:
Dear Appolus (Frank):
Your question should be directed to the person who made it to you, not to me.
I am not Leo (Leo_Grace). He is the one that made the statement.
Sincerely,
Walter
Quote:
appolus wrote: HI Waltern, respectfully, I did not jump back into this post to rehash what has already been said, I believe it would be fruitless. I can agree to disagree with you on this subject and I respect your right to have any position that you have. However, as I said, I do not believe I have ever disagreed more with a commnet from a regular on SI than this statement........
"Love is not a weapon to be wielded against Satan. It is not part of the armor of God. Our weapons against evil are: truth, righteousness, the gospel of peace, faith, our salvation, the word of God, and prayer. With these weapons we are to fight Satan and defeat him."
The sad thing is he did, Waltern. YOU even quoted his response that he "directed to the person who made it"... to Leo at 2009/12/19 11:02 when you interrupted their conversation!! _________________ Lisa
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| 2009/12/19 18:33 | Profile |
| Re: | | HI Waltern, you kinda barged into a question I had asked Leo. Now, I do not particularly mind that, it just gets a little bizarre when you then tell me to direct the question to Leo, which of course I did :)........brother Frank |
| 2009/12/19 18:47 | |
| Re: | | HI Maryjane, the question at issue is not about loving evil or loving sin, not even close, the statement in question is, well let me cut it down even further.......
""Love is not a weapon to be wielded against Satan. It is not part of the armor of God."
I totaly and unequivically disagree with that statement..............Frank |
| 2009/12/19 18:52 | |
| Re: Pacificism NOT | |
Sorry, Frank:
I do agree with Leo, and the statement that he made.
Specifically: Love is not a weapon to be wielded against Satan. It is not part of the armor of God. Our weapons against evil are: truth, righteousness, the gospel of peace, faith, our salvation, the word of God, and prayer. With these weapons we are to fight Satan and defeat him."
[color=990000][b]My statement to you Frank is really about the validity of this entire thread.[/color][/b]
As far as Leo's statement is concerened, I would add more to it.
I would even go further, and state that those who are deceived by Satan, and as such do his bidding, that come against me or my family and loved ones with the evil intent to kill or harm my loved ones, will be dealt with in like manner.
As I said, without the whole counsel of God, the subject of pacifism is meaningless.
Sincerely,
Walter
Quote:
appolus wrote: HI Waltern, you kinda barged into a question I had asked Leo. Now, I do not particularly mind that, it just gets a little bizarre when you then tell me to direct the question to Leo, which of course I did :)........brother Frank
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| 2009/12/19 19:00 | |
| Re: | | Wltern writes......
"My statement to you Frank is really about the validity of this entire thread."
Not my thread brother. As I said, there are clear disagreements and I am gonna guess that this is not gonna change any time soon :) I am glad we cleared up the other point and you have made your opinion clear, God bless you brother......Frank
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| 2009/12/19 19:05 | | Leo_Grace Member
Joined: 2009/6/14 Posts: 703
| Re: | | Dear MaryJane,
Quote:
I think I see what you are saying with this. I agree that when we are commanded to love that does not include the evil of sin. We are called to view sin as the Father does and He views all sin as wicked and evil. I think that we should resist evil absolutely, however I do not think that means that we have to take up arms and seek to cause harm to the persons.
Thank you for your kind response. You understood what I meant. But I guess we must differ on the concept of how to resist evil, for I would willingly take up arms to defend those I love, including you, Appolus, chapel, and others who may disagree with me.
However, this is where most of the contention arises, I think: the second half of your last sentence is grossly unfair to those who don't believe in non-resistance. If I do take up arms in defense of those whom I love (as God leads), it will never be to "seek to cause harm" -- no Christian would ever have such a goal in his heart. It would be to defend and protect. The action is one of love for those whom God has placed under my care, or within my power to protect. Causing harm will never be the objective, although it could be the unavoidable result.
God Bless. |
| 2009/12/19 20:24 | Profile | MaryJane Member
Joined: 2006/7/31 Posts: 3057
| Re: | | Greetings Leo:
you wrote:the second half of your last sentence is grossly unfair to those who don't believe in non-resistance. If I do take up arms in defense of those whom I love (as God leads), it will never be to "seek to cause harm" -- no Christian would ever have such a goal in his heart. It would be to defend and protect. The action is one of love for those whom God has placed under my care, or within my power to protect. Causing harm will never be the objective, although it could be the unavoidable result. ___
You know brother I can see where what I wrote may have come off as offensive to you are those who feel that they can and should defend with physical force if in the situation. For that please accept my apology. I do not agree with all that some on the thread have said and shared, but I know that you and the others love the Lord with all your heart and I trust Him in this. I understand that even in defending your family you would not be seeking to harm any individual out of anger or hatred. Brother I still do not have all the answers to these "What If" questions. I still do not understand how a christian can demonstrate loving someone while killing them???(I know that is not what you are saying, these are question I am seeking to still come to understand in Christ Jesus.)
These are things that I have been praying about, as for what the Lord is showing me I do think we differ on this issue, but I still love you brother and value you and the others that have contributed here to this thread.
God Bless mj |
| 2009/12/19 23:25 | Profile | Leo_Grace Member
Joined: 2009/6/14 Posts: 703
| | 2009/12/20 9:58 | Profile | Leo_Grace Member
Joined: 2009/6/14 Posts: 703
| Re: A real life story | | This is a true story that I thought I should post in relation to the thoughts on this thread. It happened about 20 years ago:
[i]A middle-aged Christian named Danny belonged to a large church that he attended with many other fellow Christians on a regular basis. At the end of each Sunday service, Danny, together with dozens of his brothers in the church, would ride the public bus, Bibles in hand, for the ride home. Danny was a small man, short of stature and scrawny, and his brothers from the church were relatively bigger and well-built physically.
One Sunday, on the bus ride home from church, a non-believer took the same bus and started picking on little Danny. The bully insulted and derided Danny verbally, punched his thighs, slapped him in the back of his head a few times, all the while making fun of his Protestant faith. Danny took in all of this abuse without fighting back. He knew that as a Christian he was to exercise forbearance and humility in the face of an attack on his person. Danny did not hate the bully for the man was not of the faith, and was acting out of ignorance. What did disturb Danny immensely was the fact that there were dozens of able-bodied Christian "brothers" with him on that bus who wouldn't lift a finger to help him. Some of them simply averted their gaze while others (he found out later) prayed that God would intervene in Danny's behalf while they themselves did nothing.
Danny was deeply impacted by the event, not by what the bully did, but by what his "brothers" did not do. Danny was extremely disappointed that so many Christians on the bus, who openly professed a new life in Christ, were unwilling, when the opportunity arose, to "lay down their lives for their friend" (Jn 15:13). Danny said that if it was someone else being attacked, he would have gladly given his life in defense of that friend.[/i]
He shared this experience with a Christian leader who then shared it with us.
We are called to be the salt and the light of the earth -- to bring glory to God that others may praise him and draw near. When we fail to act, the salt has lost its saltiness... (Mt 5:13-16) |
| 2009/12/20 11:05 | Profile | chapel Member
Joined: 2009/4/24 Posts: 280
| Re: Concerning the Sword | | Concerning the Sword: A Hutterian Apologia of 1577 [Article IV of the Great Article Book]
EDITED BY LEONARD GROSS* TRANSLATED BY ELIZABETH HORSCH BENDER, ET AL.
This translation first appeared in the January 2009 issue of the Mennonite Quarterly Review.
60 Paul says to the church, We are not lords over your faith, but we work with you for your joy (2 Cor. 2:[24]). And Peter obligates the elders and admonishes them to tend willingly the flock of God that is your charge, not for shameful gain but eagerly, not as domineering over those in your charge but by being examples to the flock (1 Pet. 5:[2]).
61 The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, says Paul, but spiritual (2 Cor. 10:[4]). In other places he says the armor of God is the sword of the Spirit, namely, Gods word, the breastplate of righteousness and love, the shield of faith, the helmet of salvation and hope (Eph. 6:[14- 17]; 1 Thess. 5:[8]). That is the arsenal of armor for Christians and the weapons of the knights of Christ.
The weapons of earthly power and its knights are carnal and not spiritual; they are swords, spears, guns and halberds; they are javelins and clubs; they are murderous weapons of war to take lives. These two classes of weapons cannot exist together. Since they are essentially different, they cannot both be handled by one man. He who wants the one must leave the other.
No man can serve two masters at the same time. No one can travel on two roads at the same time. No one can set his foot down at more than one place. Here, too, the weapons of Christians and those of the world, the weapons of the Spirit and those of the flesh, cannot be fused together. Just as what is stated above cannot be done, neither can a Christian be a worldly ruler, or a worldly ruler a Christian. Christians do not fight in human fashion, says Paul (2 Cor. 10:[3]), but the world and its rulers wage war and fight solely in human fashion. Christians fight against the devil and sin and not against a human being; the world and its governments fight for honor and possessions against other lands and their peoples; they daily let the devil and sin overcome them and take them prisoner. Christians contend for a heavenly inheritance and homeland, while worldly powers strive for an earthly inheritance and homeland. Christians fight for an imperishable heavenly crown, the absolute opposite of the other. Christians are a spectacle to the world, refuse to the world, and every mans outcastthey are fools for Christs sake (1 Cor. 4:[9-10]); rulers rank high in the world, are illustrious and assured of honor, and consequently, since everyone lifts his hat, they go far wrong.
62 The sword is the absolute opposite of and contrary to true love (which is the first commandment in the church of Christ, the head and the summit of the Christian life). For the apostle Paul says, Love is patient and kind (1 Cor. 13:[4]). But the sword and its servants are quickly angered, abrupt and rough, short of temper like an enemy. Love is not envious, but the sword is not only envious, but returns evil for evil from that time on. Love is not resentful, is not puffed up; the sword and its servants clash with one another and puff themselves up with great power and might. Love does not seek its own gain, whereas the sword protects, seeks and preserves its own self interest (Hos. 13; Rom. 13). Love is not easily provoked to anger; the sword is nothing but pure wrath, and a tool and instrument of wrath (Job 19:[29]). Love compels no one to do wrong; the sword is vengeance itself and repays every wrong with wrong (Rom. 13:[4]). Love endures all things; the sword endures nothing, but returns blow for blow. Paul says, If I had everything and did not have love, I would gain nothing (1 Cor. 13:[1-7]). Worldly authority, if it had everything but the sword, would be useless as governmental authority. To sum up: Love has precedence among Christians, but in the world the sword has precedence;42 therefore Christian love and the worldly sword cannot exist together, but the sword, and those who serve and wield it, are situated parallel to Christs kingdomoutside his church and not in it. However, since it is still day, they may still enter in this manner: if they turn and become like children (Mt. 18:[3]).
63 Paul writes to Titus, Remind them to be submissive to rulers, obeying the government and ready for every good work (note: good work) (Titus 3:[1]). Thereby everything is excluded that is evil, contrary to the Gospel, and against faith and conscience; he does not want us to be ready to do such things.
64 The Apostle Peter teaches: Be subject for the Lords sake to every human institution, whether it be to the king as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who
42. This phrase but in the world the sword has precedence is missing in Friedmann, but found in Cod. EAH 227.
do right. For it is Gods will that by doing right you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish men. Live as those who are free, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil (1 Pet. 2:[13-16]).43 Thus they all teach submissivenessbut, however, as Peter himself did: When he was forbidden to preach, and ordered to do wrong, he said, We must obey God rather than men (Acts 5:[29]).
Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego did likewise (Dan. 3:[16 ff]), and also Mattathias and his men. When a tyrannical power tried to force them to act contrary to the law of God, he said in a loud voice: Even if all the nations that live under the rule of the king obey him, and have chosen to do his commandments, departing each one from the religion of his fathers, yet I and my sons and my brothers will live by the covenant of our fathers. Far be it from us to desert the law and the ordinances. We will not obey the kings words by turning aside from our religion to the right hand or to the left. (1 Macc. 2:[19-22]).
That is what the ancients did, that is what Peter did; yes, no Christian has ever permitted himself to be forced to do anything contrary to God and the faith. That is why from the beginning Christians have suffered so much torture, pain and death at the hands of emperors and rulers. Therefore, in whatever is right and Christian, to that extent we should also show submission. It never occurred to the apostles to teach anything more than that.
65 To the Thessalonians Paul writes: The Lord will slay the Antichrist with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by the radiance of his coming (2 Thess. 2:[8]). He does not say with soldiers and weapons.
66 The Lord Christ revealed himself to the holy Apostle John, with a two-edged sword issuing from his mouth44 (Rev. 1:16; 19:15). From this we, his disciples and believers, learn that the sword does not belong in our hands but in our mouththat is, the sword of the Spirit, Gods word (Heb. 4:[12]); Eph. 6:[17])and that we should not bear or use the bloody sword.
43. Text reads: 1 Pet. 1. 44. Friedmann (p. 269), reads: in seiner handt. However, Cod. EAH 227 reads: in seinem mundt, which fits better into the context.
67 The twenty-four elders in the Revelation of John who appear around the throne of God cast their crowns before the throne. Where, then, will those be who, here and now, refuse to cast away their crowns but instead want to be crowned and honored by all men, and for the sake of their temporal crowns, tear and bite at each other so that blood flows? They will not be among the elders gathered around the throne of God, but around Lucifers throne. The elders say, Worthy art thou, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for thou didst create all things (Rev. 4:[10-11]). But these people regard themselves worthy of receiving and accepting glory and honor and great reverence, which a Christian can neither accept nor take to himself.
68 If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he that kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. This calls for the patience and the faith of the saints (Rev. 13:[9-10]).45 It is as though he wanted to say, only with this will they overcome. For with patience Christians overcome all their foes. Patience is a weapon for every conflict. John says, Our faith is the victory that overcomes the world (1 Jn. 5:[4]). Therefore Christ teaches his followers in the Gospel, Possess your souls with patience;46 nowhere does he teach them to possess their souls with swords and spears like the tribes of Iscariots and Pharisees, and the soldiers on the Mount of Olives who seized Jesus and imprisoned him.47 That is why they had to be imprisoned in Vespasians prisons48 and lose their lives by the sword of the Romans. And that would be a small matter if only they did not also have to come before Gods judgment on the Judgment Day. For they will have to appear there and be cast into the prison of outermost darkness where there is eternal weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.49
At this judgment they will first be judged by the two-edged sword of the Son of God (Rev. 1:[16]; 19:[15]) when he says to
45. Text reads: Rev. 3. 46. Lk. 21:19. 47. Mt. 26. 48. Reference to the Jewish war. The Book of Josephus Flavius was very popular among the Anabaptists, and is still being read today among their spiritual descendants. 49. Mt. 13:42, 50; 25:30.
them: Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Mt. 25:[41]). This will be the lot of all who even today put the members of Christ into prison and kill them because of their faith under the name of heretics. This they will do, says Christ, because they have not known me nor my Father (Jn. 16:[3]; 1 Cor. 2:[8]; 1 Jn. 3:[1]),50 as if he were saying: therefore they will not know you either.
Continued:
_________________ Lee Chapel
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| 2009/12/22 13:09 | Profile |
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