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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Interpreting the life of Jacob was he rebellious and judged or obedient and blessed? (more thorough)

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Leo_Grace
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Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Quote:
As for what you quote it is true that we should not lie. All those verse of course say that. None of them however specifically say that we cannot out wit for righteous purposes. So you would rather had Rahab not say the spies were not there? You would rather Ten Boom not say the Jews were not there? What of David in war? Using deceiving tactics to overcome his enemies? Is this lying then yet without words?


I believe that God's arm is not that short --- He could have achieved his purpose without anyone resorting to lies. Do you believe that God depended on their lies to achieve a favorable result?

I would rather that we accept God's teaching humbly as little children, and stop searching for loopholes like lawyers.

 2009/9/7 11:15Profile
anonymity
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Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

I understand what you are saying. I am not trying to be a lawyer.

I am saying however that what Rahab and others did was not really a "lie" in the most specific sense as a definition.

Lets say for instance David was sword fighting. He fakes like hes gonna go right, but he goes left. This is deception. It is a lie by action. I believe that God ordained for his enemies to be deceived.

So in light of this I would say that it was deception but not evil deception as is called Biblically a sin.

So though David with his deceptive actions was not verbal it is still just as much deception as anything else maybe more so because it was acted out physically.

 2009/9/7 18:37Profile









 Re:

Quote:
So far most of the posts here are not giving reason why they think Jacob was rebellious.

Was he? Can you show scripture and verse to this man's rebellion? Thanks

 2009/9/7 19:28
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7494
Mississippi

 Re:

Rahab, the harlot..this story befuddles many people who want to make sense of the WORD because this is called an act of faith. How can one justify a lie?

This is one incident in the WORD in which it does not make sense. Or, how about the one where Jacob exposed his sheep - read Genesis 30:37-43. This act [i]is[/i] strange. Sounds occultic, don't you think?

When we focus primarily on man's deeds, we see a fallen creature that was not godly, did foolish things, many of whom did not make sense at all. And a few lied and we know what Revelation says about lying so how do you reconcile this with the Rahab's place in the hall of fame in Hebrews 11:31? May I suggest that when we study the lives of these folks we see the mercy of God in action, how he redeems terrible situations for himself? How he will use questionable and even sinful behaviours to his honor and glory? Is it to illustrate that no behaviours goes to waste in God's economy?

When I think of this principle, my mind always goes to the Holocaust where eleven million people perished. Was this God's will? why did he allow it? May I suggest that His name was honored and glorified through this atrocity? Sure, many people were sent [prematurely] to hell, but they would have gone there anyways, if not sooner, then later. But did God not use this event to reach souls? If they would not have experienced this horrific acts, they may have been lost for all of time and eternity? Ever read Corrie ten Boom's story? all of her books? Ever noticed how she was a person working away for so many years making watches, teaching youth and handicapped persons but it was her ministry after the war that got people's attention. It was birthed by faithfulness in the small things then and matured during the experience of WW2's terrible trials...

Looking at events from God's perspective teaches us more then looking at God from our life's experiences.

My thoughts...
ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2009/9/9 11:04Profile
Leo_Grace
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Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Dear ginnyrose,

Quote:
by ginnyrose on 2009/9/9 8:04:25 Rahab, the harlot..this story befuddles many people who want to make sense of the WORD because this is called an act of faith. How can one justify a lie?


A careful reading of the verse in Hebrews 11:31 will clearly show that [b]Rahab was considered faithful for welcoming the spies, not for lying[/b].

Heb 11:31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

In Christ's Love,
Leo

 2009/9/9 11:58Profile
imnowhere
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Joined: 2009/8/1
Posts: 69


 Re:

Ex 1:15 ¶ And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah:
16 And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.
17 But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive.
18 And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive?
19 And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.
20 Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.
21 And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses.


Leograce, And what of the midwives? Or...



1 Kings 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.


And this one too. How do you make this fit with your posts explaining God's judgement and how he never would approve of deception?

 2009/9/9 23:46Profile
Leo_Grace
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Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Dear imnowhere,

I'll admit I'm stumped for an answer to your post above. I confess my inadequacy in deciphering God's nature to this detail. My understanding of Him is severely limited, so I cannot respond.

Please enlighten me, and others who may be in the same position. What is God like in the light of these verses?

In Christ's Love,
Leo

 2009/9/10 12:08Profile
Leo_Grace
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Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Dear imnowhere,

I prayed for the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit as I re-read those verses you quoted that seem to imply that lying or deception is sometimes acceptable to God. I re-read them knowing deep in my heart that God is a Holy God, and that lying is a sin, and that therefore one would have nothing to do with the other, for an overwhelming majority of verses in the Bible tell us this.

[b]Regarding the midwives:[/b]

Ex 1:17-21 [i]The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live[/i]. Then the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and asked them, “Why have you done this? Why have you let the boys live?” The midwives answered Pharaoh, “Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive.” [i]So God was kind to the midwives and the people increased and became even more numerous. And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families of their own[/i].

In the light of God's pure holiness, as taught clearly in scripture, it becomes easy to recognize that the midwives were blessed by God because of their fear of Him, not because they lied to Pharaoh.

[b]Regarding Ahab and Jehoshaphat:[/b]

1Ki 22:19-22 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. And the LORD said, ‘[i]Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?[/i]’ “One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, ‘I will entice him.’ “ ‘By what means?’ the LORD asked. “ ‘[i]I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets[/i],’ he said. “ ‘[i]You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the LORD. ‘Go and do it.[/i]’

It is clear from the passage that God did not instruct anyone to lie for him. He was looking for a way to cause Ahab to attack Gilead. The devil came forth and offered to accomplish this "enticement". As in the case of Job, God allowed the devil to act.

It is a sad thing when scripture is enlisted to cast doubts on the holiness of God, and thereby open the way for the devil to tempt the faith of some believers.

IF WE TRULY BELIEVE AND HAVE FAITH IN GOD, WE WOULD KNOW HOW TO READ PAST THE AMBIGUITIES OF SOME PASSAGES TO SEE THE GLORY OF GOD WITHIN, and there would be no need to debate the matter.

In Christ's Love,
Leo

 2009/9/10 13:00Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7494
Mississippi

 Re:

Quote:
IF WE TRULY BELIEVE AND HAVE FAITH IN GOD, WE WOULD KNOW HOW TO READ PAST THE AMBIGUITIES OF SOME PASSAGES TO SEE THE GLORY OF GOD WITHIN, and there would be no need to debate the matter.



AMEN!

The incidents quoted here simply defy understanding, or my understanding. Since this is the case I do well to leave it to God. He is greater then me and I trust his judgment.

Leo, thanks for pointing out that Rahab was blessed because she "received the spies." I never noticed that before.

Blessings,
ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2009/9/10 16:45Profile









 Re: Interpreting the life of Jacob was he rebellious and judged or obedient and bless



Sorry I don't have time to read the whole thread.

Regarding Rahab, the context is all-important - Josh 2:9, 10, 11, 12. She began to fear God, and to put that into action.

To anonymity,

Regarding Jacob, Carter Conlon has several sermons which refer to Jacob. In general though, the way to understand his life is both spiritual and physical.

Esau, the firstborn (flesh) was not interested in his natural birthright or blessing, but Jacob coveted this special position, and God honoured him for being willing to change from a deceiver, to an honest, broken man. (Gen 28:20, 21, 31:7 and ch 32.)

Thus, when comparing Esau and Jacob, thinking spiritually, you can think of flesh and spirit. But, when considering Jacob before and after Peniel, again, you can think of flesh and spirit.

Also, if you look up Strong's, you will find that 'Israel' means 'God prevails'. It doesn't really mean 'a prince'. God said to Jacob 'because [u]as a prince[/u] you have prevailed with God'.

In the overall picture in scripture, it's important to remember that 'God prevails' is about [i]true Israel[/i], whether the faithful servants before Christ, or those of us privileged to become co-heirs with Him, as sons, through the means defined in Tit 3:5 and Rom 2:29.

See also Rom 8:5, 6, 7, 8, 9.

 2009/9/11 10:08





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