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imnowhere
Member



Joined: 2009/8/1
Posts: 69


 Re:

Quote:
Question:How could all men everywhere repent if they can not untill Jesus first gives them the ability?

Remember, commanding an imposibility is sadistic, if not tyranical; especially if one is punished for not doing that which they can not do.



So then it was sadistic of the Lord to command a dead Lazarus to come out of the tomb, or for God to command perfect obedience in word, thought and deed of Israel for 1400 years without the power of the Holy Spirit indwelling them?

And I guess the one that represents God in Matt 18 is 'sadistic, tyrranical' etc for commanding the man that owed him the unpayable debt to pay.


My friend, it's not the ability to pay that makes a command virtuous. God can and has demanded what we cannot pay. That is why we come to him empty, without boast, even thanking God for the gifts of faith and repentance.

If you don't see this now, as George Whitefield said, you will on the other side.

By the way, the reason we are unprofitable servants is because we don't bring anything God needs, not because we by lip service deny works while maintaining our will was needed by God. We rather have been made willing in the day of His power. It is God who is working in us to WILL AND TO DO His good pleasure.

The glory is all God's.

If you think that is tyrranical and sadistic so be it. But you might change your mind one day like I have.

 2009/9/4 12:46Profile
imnowhere
Member



Joined: 2009/8/1
Posts: 69


 Re:

Maybe it's just easiest to look at the bible that speaks to this specific question...

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 .[b]Which were [/b]born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, [b]nor of the will of man[/b], but of God.


Rom 9:16 .[b]So then it is not of him that willeth[/b], nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 2009/9/4 12:59Profile
imnowhere
Member



Joined: 2009/8/1
Posts: 69


 Re:

Quote:
Sounds as if you imly that repentance from sin gives glory to man.



If men take all the credit for it, then yes, it does.

 2009/9/4 13:01Profile
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Dear imnowhere.

I will humor you one last time by answering your last post to me:

Quote:
Quote: Does this faith come from the man or is it provided by God as part of his grace? I don't need to know the answer to that as long as faith happens, repentance happens, and rebirth happens.

You think this is a game?
You're telling hundreds or thousands of people online that it is 'a small thing' , that it 'doesn't matter' how are salvation comes about? Will you preach that sermon on the other side? You're right it's not a game.



First of all, you're contradicting yourself. First you accuse me of thinking that salvation is a game, then in the same paragraph you say, "You're right it's not a game."

To clarify, I do not think our salvation is a game. In fact, it is so important and so precious that I would rather enjoy my salvation, worship my God who gave it to me by grace, and focus on doing His will, rather that quibble with you on the step-by-step approach taken by God. It is enough for me to know that He saved me. I would rather work out my sanctification than nitpick God's methodology (which no man can fully understand anyway).

And yes, [b]I'm trying to tell all the Christians online that it is better to live out your Christianity than to dissect it.[/b] I truly believe that some theologians have gone too far in trying to reduce Christianity into an academic exercise.

Job 11:7-9 “Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty? They are higher than the heavens —what can you do? They are deeper than the depths of the grave —what can you know? Their measure is longer than the earth and wider than the sea."

 2009/9/4 13:25Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
imnowhere wrote:
Quote:
Question:How could all men everywhere repent if they can not untill Jesus first gives them the ability?

Remember, commanding an imposibility is sadistic, if not tyranical; especially if one is punished for not doing that which they can not do.

So then it was sadistic of the Lord to command a dead Lazarus to come out of the tomb

Know, that was love.
After Jesus called him, Lazarus was able.

Quote:
or for God to command perfect obedience in word, thought and deed of Israel for 1400 years without the power of the Holy Spirit indwelling them?

I didn't say anything about the Holy Spirit not indwelling them.

For anyone could have the Holy Spirit.
Read Num 11:25-29
The Scriptures never say that no one could have the Spirit.

The Following tells us that Israel was able to do what is commanded, even (as you say) without the power of the Holy Spirit indwelling them:
[b]Romans 9:30[/b] [color=990000]What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
[b]:31[/b] But Israel, who followed after the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
[b]:32[/b] Why? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone;[/color]
They were judged because they could have done what the Gentiles did, but were disobediant.

This is what the Scriptures call "The Rest" (Jesus is our rest) which they were disobediant of.
[b]Hebrews 3:18[/b] [color=990000]And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
[b]:19[/b] So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
[b]Hebrews 4:1[/b] Let us therefore fear, lest, although a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
[b]:2[/b] For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them[/color] (the "gospel" which was preached to them was the "promise of rest" which is also preached to us)
[color=990000]but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.[/color]

disobedience implies ability.
Punishment is never from diability, unless you brought the disability upon yourself.

Quote:
And I guess the one that represents God in Matt 18 is 'sadistic, tyrranical' etc for commanding the man that owed him the unpayable debt to pay.

The man with the unpayable debt, brought his debt upon himself.
He was responcible to not get in to debt and not barrow when he knew that he would not be able to.
If he was carfull, he would not have went in to so much debt.

Quote:
My friend, it's not the ability to pay that makes a command virtuous. God can and has demanded what we cannot pay

We can pay. And we will pay (the payment is eternity), if we are not forgiven.

The command was to not sin (and go into debt from it), we were never suposed to sin, but we did. We did that which we were able not to do.

Quote:
That is why we come to him empty, without boast, even thanking God for the gifts of faith and repentance.

faith and repentance can not be gifts.
Otherwise God is directly responcible for the unrepentance & faithlessness of the world, because He has not given the repuirement.

You criminalize God.

Quote:
If you don't see this now, as George Whitefield said, you will on the other side.

No one will see that which is not true.

Quote:
By the way, the reason we are unprofitable servants is because we don't bring anything God needs.

No, it is because we do only that which is required, which is what the text says.
Do not add to it.

Quote:
not because we by lip service deny works while maintaining our will was needed by God.

If we do not maintaining our will being needed by God, that implies God saves unwilling people who hate Him.

Mankind must first be willing and love Him inorder to be reconciled to Him.
No one ever has eternal life until they Love God, knowing that He was loving them from day one.

You imply that one has eternal life before they love Him and are willing.

Quote:
We rather have been made willing in the day of His power.

God does not make people to love Him and be willing by force (which you imply "in the day of His power"), for that is not love.

True love persuades, it never forces by power.


Quote:
The glory is all God's.

There is great glory in a willing heart. There is no glory in an unwilling heart which is forced "in the day of His power"

Quote:
If you think that is tyrranical and sadistic so be it. But you might change your mind one day like I have.

Nope, the truth will stand, I will not.

By the way, when you changed your mind, you clearly didn't think it out logically.

Knowing this, mankind will not be condemned for that which they could not do, but could and refused.

Mankind are not victims, or disabled, but are criminals that were able to not be criminals.
If one could not avoid being a criminal, there would be no guilt on his part.

 2009/9/4 13:44Profile
imnowhere
Member



Joined: 2009/8/1
Posts: 69


 Re:

I think I'll acknowledge God rather than lean on my own understanding.

I can't take near that amount of credit for my walk with God.

 2009/9/4 13:53Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

imnowhere wrote:
Quote:
Sounds as if you imly that repentance from sin gives glory to man.

If men take all the credit for it, then yes, it does.

He take to credit for Jesus choosing to forgive our sins.
All the Golry goes to Him.

How/why would God forgive those who do not want Him or love Him, not to mention those who refuse to put their faith in/on what He has said & done with repentance to prove the faith.

 2009/9/4 13:55Profile









 Re:

God promises grace and mercy to those who forsake their sin. God never promised grace and mercy for those who continue in their sins. For them He only promises wrath. A man is either under God's wrath or under God's mercy. Those who are in their sins are under God's wrath. Those who forsook their sins and are in Christ are under God's mercy.

The atonement of Christ did not make anyone saved without repentance. The atonement of Christ makes it possible for everyone to be saved, if they repent and believe. The atonement makes salvation available, but salvation does not become actual until there is genuine conversion.

In every war there is the Victor and the defeated. Those who are defeated are in a state of humility. The Victor is in the state of glory. In a war, each opponent tries to bring the other to surrender. When the one surrenders, the other get's the glory.

A sinner is at war with God. God brings us to surrender. It is our choice to surrender our war against God. As the defeated, we are in a state of humility. Since we are the ones who choose to surrender, God get's the glory. It was because of Him and His influence that brought us to surrender. If it wasn't for Him, we would have continued to wage our war against Him and His law. God is glorified when men freely choose to turn to Him.

Think also how great God must be, if free moral beings choose to surrender and serve Him! His nature and character must be truly excellent if men freely choose to serve Him. God is glorified when men choose to freely serve Him.

 2009/9/4 23:59
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, altars are places of sacrifice... death to our self while we receive the zoe life of Christ. if a man says he is without sin he is a liar and the truth..JESUS is not in him. the word says you have NOT chosen Me I have chosen you. if one walks in the Spirit he pleases God and if he walks in the flesh he still has the sentence of death on him.shall we sin GOD FORBID, but if we do we have an advocate with the father.. rest in His finished work. jimp remember that there were 2 trees in the garden ...one was the knowledge of good and evil[ mans religious way] the other was the tree of LIFE... Jesus

 2009/9/5 3:09Profile
anonymity
Member



Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re: Just Believe or Repentance & Faith?

Doug,

we put our trust in Christ
then by His grace He transforms us

we come to Him saying here is my life
but then He must take it
and give us the power to actually give it
and not just decide to give it
but actually give it in a walked out way

belief and faith
have a way of coming off as a
mere intellectual understanding
trust however
is that which believes with the heart
and surrenders

we don't get ourselves right
we surrender
then He takes over

if we had to get ourselves perfect before God
before coming to God
by "repenting" (false interpretation of)
then no one could come
for all are slaves of sin

it might be said believe and repent
since we cant change our lives
til after we believe
then having the Gospels grace to do so

or possibly
that repent and believe
are not one before the other
but together at once
for when we believe
the fruit will simultaneously be
repentance

the scriptures also say
repent and be baptized for the remission of sins
however we read later
that baptism does not save us and it merely water
it is the true spiritual baptism that does
into Christ
so also as it says repent
that repentance no more saves us
then does baptism
repentance and baptism are both a result
of faith/ trust/ belief

i have spoken to some cultists
like watchtowerites, or mormons, or others
they will say
faith without works is dead
so therefore we must do works to be saved
i say i agree
that we must do works to be saved
but those works do not save us
but they will be there if we are truly saved
if we have faith the result will be works
they then often understand
for they sincerely believed
trying not to be hypocrites and teach faith
without works
but when i explain it they understand
works don't save you
but you will have works if you are saved
works don't save you
but if you have true faith which alone saves
then the result will be works

if we could
"repent" in that way
then we could make ourselves right before God
then we could earn our way to heaven
so maybe some just repent from the get go
and never need Jesus' blood
this would be the erroneous outcome

it is hard since the 2 are so close together
there is a sure distinction though
we have faith by which we are saved by the
grace of Christ
then after that works result
which do not save us
but will certainly be there is we are saved

this repentance therefore
cannot refer to
changing ones life to perfection morally
but to surrendering
ones heart
saying you can have my life
now take it
not saying I am now perfect
and will now come before you righteous
but saying Jesus
I am ready to do it your way
now here is all of me
take it by Your power
and give me grace to give it
it is our choice
it is His power
it is our surrender
it is His transforming grace
He gives us a new heart
we become children of God
we are born again
with a new nature
then that new nature
can now live a life repented from the old
only the Holy Spirit can kill the flesh
only the new man can live a new life
only the good new man can live a good life
Do you agree?

 2009/9/5 8:49Profile





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