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Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Dear waltern,

Quote:
How are we to respond to others, those that are Christians? Are we never to judge them, and their doctrine they mistakenly post?
...
How Are We to Judge?

1. We are to judge righteously. Jesus commands in John 7:24, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

Judge by the Word of God and Its principles, not by someone’s skin color, whether they are tall or short (inherited physical traits), etc.

2. We are to judge without hypocrisy. "And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?" (Rom 2:3)

We are to judge ourselves FIRST to see if WE are guilty of that sin. Live what WE preach. Only after we get your life cleaned up by turning from our sins and receiving pardon through repentance and faith in Jesus (i.e. we get saved) we can go and help others to be saved too.

Sincerely,

Walter


No one said anything about not judging. In fact, I agree with your last post that judging, if done in the proper way, is a necessary part of the fellowship of believers. I also agree that some verses have been misappropriated to curtail this essential element of the church.

However, if we are to judge, or rebuke, or criticize our brothers, it must be done with humility and love, not ridicule and pride.

In Christ's Love,
Leo

 2009/9/7 18:40Profile









 Re:

To Leo:

If you would have taken the time to read the entire thread, you would have found that the rebuke came from ADisciple, not me:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[color=CC0000][b]From Walter to Deepthinker:

The Believing Church has always known that for all of of the Prophecises, found throughout the Old Testament, and the New Testament in regards to the return of Jesus Christ to this Earth REQUIRED THAT ISRAEL BECOME A NATION AGAIN.

That happened in one day on May 14th, 1948. This one day event, prophesized in Isaiah 66:8 started the time clock ticking again. [/color][/b]

[b][color=0033FF]ADisciples reponse to my post to Deepthinker:

Sigh. I will just go on record as one in "the believing church" who does not believe that Isa. 66.8 was fulfilled in 1948.

The "holy nation" is born when "Zion" travails. And Peter makes clear who this "holy nation" is (1 Pt. 2.9). It includes (according to the apostle Peter, if his view carries any weight) both Jew and Gentile, those who at one time "were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy" (1 Pt. 2.10).

But... sigh. I'm sure what I've just posted will, sadly, cause some to see, and no doubt post, red.[/color][/b]

Walter continues:

[color=CC0000][b]This is a post about Damnable Heresies. How are Damnable Heresies started? By spreading FALSE DOCTRINE.

I defended my post with Bible Doctrine, while ADisciple used Doctrine that had no basis in truth. God is not through with Israel. God's covenant with Israel is an everlasting covenant.

Now, if you want proof of that, I would be more than glad to post it.

God is not through with Israel. He has great plans for Israel that are prophesized throughout the Old Testament. The Millenium is one of those promises, one of those many, many prophesies of His chosen people (the Jews).[/color][/b]

Sincrely,

Walter

Quote:

Leo_Grace wrote:
Dear waltern,

Quote:
How are we to respond to others, those that are Christians? Are we never to judge them, and their doctrine they mistakenly post?
...
How Are We to Judge?

1. We are to judge righteously. Jesus commands in John 7:24, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

Judge by the Word of God and Its principles, not by someone’s skin color, whether they are tall or short (inherited physical traits), etc.

2. We are to judge without hypocrisy. "And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?" (Rom 2:3)

We are to judge ourselves FIRST to see if WE are guilty of that sin. Live what WE preach. Only after we get your life cleaned up by turning from our sins and receiving pardon through repentance and faith in Jesus (i.e. we get saved) we can go and help others to be saved too.

Sincerely,

Walter


No one said anything about not judging. In fact, I agree with your last post that judging, if done in the proper way, is a necessary part of the fellowship of believers. I also agree that some verses have been misappropriated to curtail this essential element of the church.

However, if we are to judge, or rebuke, or criticize our brothers, it must be done with humility and love, not ridicule and pride.

In Christ's Love,
Leo[/quoteFrom[/color]

 2009/9/8 23:47
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Dear Walter,

Thank you for your response.

Quote:
To Leo: If you would have taken the time to read the entire thread, you would have found that the rebuke came from ADisciple, not me:


I did take the time to read the entire thread, carefully, several times. Like I said in my last post, judging, rebuking, or criticizing our brothers is fine as long as it is done with humility and love. What is unbecoming of Christians is when we do this in the spirit of pride and an intent to ridicule.

Pr 8:13 To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech.

In Christ's Love,
Leo

 2009/9/9 1:47Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

Leo_Grace wrote:
What is unbecoming of Christians is when we do this in the spirit of pride and an intent to ridicule.



...and the awesomest comment of the thread award goes to..

This really is the key. It simply isn't conducive to edifying discussion to begin a post with "as usual you are wrong again", whether it is a frequent occurrence or not. Anyhoo, I certainly hope that Walter will heed what is been said by his brethren, and stop hiding behind his "It is my duty to expose error" defense.

It's all quite sad because, calvinist/arminian debates aside, this has potential to be a great topic of discussion (even if I do agree with ADisciple about Israel;-)).


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2009/9/9 8:49Profile









 Re: Replacement Theology

[color=990000][b]This post is a response to the following posters on this thread (Damnable Heresies):

ChrisJD, ADisciple, Deepthinker, Leo, Clarkforest and any others out there who believe that“Israel” has been replaced by the "Church":[/color][/b]

[b]Replacement theology is a “Damnable Heresy”, the mistaken belief that God has replaced the Jews & Israel with the "Church". This view teaches that the Church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian Church, not in biblical, literal, Israel. So, the prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Land of Promise are "spiritualized" into promises of God's blessing for the Church. The prophecies of condemnation and judgment, however, still remain for national Israel and the Jewish people. This view has been called Replacement Theology because the Church replaces Israel in the program of God. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God, there being no future for the Jewish nation, how do we account for the supernatural survival of the Jewish people, Israel's rebirth among the gentile nations, victories in major wars with the Arabs and a flourishing modern democratic Jewish state?

The Church is Totally Different and Distinct from Israel [/b]

Although being suppressed throughout the history of the Church, the view that Israel and the Church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. In this view, the Church is completely different and distinct from Israel and the two are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the Church is an entirely new creation, that came into being on the Day of Pentecost and will continue until it is translated to Heaven at the Rapture (Eph. 1:9-11). The Church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel, the covenants, promises and warnings are valid only for Israel. Israel has been set aside in God's program during these past 2,000 years of dispersion. The Lord has preserved the Jewish people through great persecutions, though they are largely in unbelief.

After the Rapture (1 Thess. 4:16-18) God will restore Israel. The first event at this time is the "Time of Jacob's Trouble," also known as the Great Tribulation. This is a horrible period of seven years, which begins moderately during the first half then intensifies in full during the latter half. The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the Great Tribulation for the Second Coming of the Messiah. Now, when Christ does return to the earth, at the end of the Tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him. The remnant of Israel which survives the Tribulation will be saved and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with the capital as Jerusalem. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King. The Church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Rev. 20:1-5).

[color=990000][b]What Did The Apostolic Church Believe? [/color][/b]

Almost all students of the early church agree that Premillennialism, or Chiliasm, was the most widely held view of the apostolic church. Philip Schaff, the noted authority on church history writes, "The most striking point in the eschatology of the ante-Nicene Age [A.D. 100-325] is the prominent chiliasm, or millenarianism, . . . a widely current opinion of distinguished teachers, such as Barnabas, Papia, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Methodius, and Lactantius" (Philip Schaff. History of the Christian Church. New York: Scribner, 1884, Vol. 2, p. 614).

Premillennialism began to die out in the established Catholic Church during the time of Augustine, though it has always survived as a Church doctrine. Even when it has not been widely known it survived through "underground" and "fringe" groups of Believers. The last 200 years have seen the greatest development and spread of Premillennialism, which, like the early church, recognizes a future glorious hope for literal Israel. Beginning in Britain and spreading to America, consistent Premillennialism, known as Dispensational Premillennialism, has come forth as a major theological view in the Church.


[color=990000][b]The Biblical Basis for Premillennialism [/color][/b]

Both the Old Testament and the New Testament support a Premillennial understanding of God's plan for humanity. Even so, the strongest support for Premillennialism is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1-7, where it says, six times, that Christ's kingdom will last 1,000 years. After the Tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth with Jerusalem as His capital and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The Church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years. 1 Philip Schaff. History of the Christian Church. New York: Scribner, 1884, Vol. 2, p. 614.

[b]There are multi-references to Israel and it's land in the Old Testament. Israel's sin and captivity did not change their divine right to this land. Many people have said that God's promise to give Israel the land was based upon Israel's faithfulness to God's laws, and that when they were disobedient and sent into captivity, this nullified God's promise. The Bible teaches otherwise. In Leviticus 26:40-45 we read that God would punish Israel for their disobedience and send them into captivity. BUT ACCORDING TO VERSES 44-45, GOD WILL BRING THEM BACK!
"44. And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the Lord their God.
45. But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the Lord."

In Deuteronomy 30:3-5 God promises:
"[Then] the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee. 4. If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5. And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers."

Jeremiah 16:15 gives this promise from the Lord, "For I will bring them back into their land which I gave to their fathers." Jeremiah 31:10 says, "He who scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him as a shepherd does his flock." Isaiah 43:5-7 tells us that God will bring Israel's descendents from the east, and gather you from the west. I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' And to the south, 'Do not keep them back!' Bring my sons from afar, and My daughters from the ends of the earth." Amos 9:14-15 thunders forth these remarkable words: " And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God."

God's promise to Israel is as certain as the existence and order of the Universe!! Jeremiah 31:35-57 leaves no doubt in our minds of this fact:
"Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord."

The name of this land is not Palestine, but Israel. Twenty-five hundred years ago the prophet Ezekiel spoke of the restoration of Israel to its land in the last days. Ezekiel spoke of dry bones coming to life. Never before in history has a nation been destroyed and scattered all over the world and then brought back to life. It is a miracle, and a fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Ezekile 37:11-12 says: " Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel."---Notice, that the name of the land is ISRAEL. The land that so often is called the "land of Canaan" in the Bible. God says that in the last days it will be called "ISRAEL".

[u]The full restoration of Israel to its land with complete peace and security will require the coming of the Messiah.[/u]

Many people want to know why Bible-believing Christians all over the world have such a heart for Israel and its land. What brings the Jews and Christians together? How can their hearts beat as one? Have they not disagreed sharply over the Person of Jesus of Nazareth? Have not the Jews suffered terribley at the hands of the so-called Christians throughout the history of the Church? What draws the Bible-believing Christian to the support of the people of Israel during this difficult hour in the history of the world? What makes these Christians stand by the nation of Israel when most nations of the world refuse to stand by her? There is only one answer. It is because of the Bible itself. If you believe the Bible, then you know, whether you are a jew or a Christian, that it is through the promise given long ago to Abraham (an irrevocable promise, an irrevocable covenant). They have come to believe that the only hope of the world is the coming of the Jewish Messiah promised by the writers of Scripture.

Zechariah tells us that the Lord will come and place His feet on the Mount of Olives. He will fight for His people Israel against all nations of the world. All the land of Israel will dwell in saftey and peace when the Messiah comes. He will rule and reign from Jerusalem, the Son of David, sitting on His throne. Regardless of Israel's sins of the past, the Lord will forgive, cleanse, and restore. Jeremiah 31:31-34 says:
" 31. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: 33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Zechariah 13:1 says- "In that day a fountain shall be opened for the House of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for uncleanness". The prophet Isaiah said in chapter 59, verses 20-21:"20. And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.
21.As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever."

Ezekiel 39:25-29 speaks of this great day of restoration: " 25. Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; 26. After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid. 27. When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; 28. Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. 29. Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God."[/b]

[color=990000][b][u]What can be said for those "Christians who do not believe the Bible nor accept Israel's right to the land?. As "Christians" we cannot say on the one hand that we believe there is a God Who has revealed His perfect will in His Holy Scriptures, and on the other hand deny Israel its right to the land God promised her. Our commitment to Israel is that which the psalmist clearly stated so long ago:[/u]
" Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces.
For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.
Because of the house of the Lord our God I will seek thy good.
(Psalms 122:6-9)


[u]Almighty God has already determined the rights of Israel to its land.[/u] Lest you think God is a passive observer to all that takes place in the land, of Israel, listen to the words of Deuteronomy 11:12, “a land for which the Lord your God cares; the eyes of the Lord your God are always on it, from the beginning of the year to the very end of the year.”

Before we examine what God says about the land of Israel, lets define what we mean by the word LAND. What land are we taling about? Genesis 15:18 gives us some dimensions: “The Lord mad e covenant with Abram, saying: “To your descendents I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river—the River Eurhrates.”

On many occasions, God refers to this land by calling it “the land of Canaan.” When the Lord spoke to Moses about this land in Numbers 34:1-15, He gave some additional insight as to its dimensions. He specifically laid out the southern, western, northern, and eastern borders of the land. There are many interesting details in that Scripture affecting several disputed territories in Israel’s present situation.

In order to answer the question, “What rights does Israel have to its land? I would ask you to consider the following Biblical facts:

[u]FACT ONE (1): This land belongs to God.[/u]

Leviticus 25:23 states:
“The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is Mine, for ye are strangers and sojourners with Me.”

[u]FACT TWO (2): The land was given by God to the descendents of Abraham:[/u]

In Genesis 12:7 we read:
“And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed (descendents) will I give this land.”

[u]In Genesis 13:15 He repeated His promise when He said, “for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendents FOREVER,” He said the same thing in Genesis 15:18, “Unto thy seed (descendents) have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:[/u]

[u]FACT THREE (3): The Gift of this land to Abraham and his descendents was based on an UNCONDITIONAL covenant from God:[/u]

Genesis 17:7-8 states:
“And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

The sign of that covenant for Abraham and his descendants was circumcision. Twice in this passage God mentioned the [u]EVERLASTING NATURE of this covenant.[/u] There are some today who say that this covenant was conditional, that it was based on Israel’s faithfulness to God. The BIBLE TEACHES OTHERWISE. In Psalm 89:30-37 we read:
“If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.”

[u]I agree that God promised to judge His people if they disobeyed Him. I do not agree that Israel’s disobedience would forfeit their right to the land. The promise of the land was not based upon Israel’s performance but upon God’s oath and character—He will not lie![/u]

Deuteronomy 7:7-9 reminds us:
“The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; “

[u]FACT FOUR (4): This land was not given to the descendents of Ishmael, but rather to the descendents of Isaac.[/u]

[u]FACT FIVE (5): This land was not given to the other sons of Abraham, but only to Isaac.[/u]

[u]What Did The Apostolic Church Believe?[/u]

Almost all students of the early church agree that Premillennialism, or Chiliasm, was the most widely held view of the apostolic church. Philip Schaff, the noted authority on church history writes, "The most striking point in the eschatology of the ante-Nicene Age [A.D. 100-325] is the prominent chiliasm, or Millenarianism, . . . a widely current opinion of distinguished teachers, such as Barnabas, Papia, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Methodius, and Lactantius" (Philip Schaff. History of the Christian Church. New York: Scribner, 1884, Vol. 2, p. 614). Premillennialism began to die out in the established Catholic Church during the time of Augustine, though it has always survived as a Church doctrine. Even when it has not been widely known it survived through "underground" and "fringe" groups of Believers. The last 200 years have seen the greatest development and spread of Premillennialism, which, like the early church, recognizes a future glorious hope for literal Israel. Beginning in Britain and spreading to America, consistent Premillennialism, known as Dispensational Premillennialism, has come forth as a major theological view in the Church.

[u]The Biblical Basis for Premillennialism [/u]

Both the Old Testament and the New Testament support a Premillennial understanding of God's plan for humanity. Even so, the strongest support for Premillennialism is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1-7, where it says, six times, that Christ's kingdom will last 1,000 years. After the Tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth with Jerusalem as His capital and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The Church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years. 1 Philip Schaff. History of the Christian Church. New York: Scribner, 1884, Vol. 2, p. 614.

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:
Quote:

Leo_Grace wrote:
What is unbecoming of Christians is when we do this in the spirit of pride and an intent to ridicule.



...and the awesomest comment of the thread award goes to..

This really is the key. It simply isn't conducive to edifying discussion to begin a post with "as usual you are wrong again", whether it is a frequent occurrence or not. Anyhoo, I certainly hope that Walter will heed what is been said by his brethren, and stop hiding behind his "It is my duty to expose error" defense.

It's all quite sad because, calvinist/arminian debates aside, this has potential to be a great topic of discussion[color=990000] (even if I do agree with ADisciple about Israel;-)).[/color][/b]

 2009/9/9 12:30
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

waltern,

I'm not so sure we can honestly term "replacement theology" as "damnable heresy". "Damnable heresy" means that if you hold to the said belief, you will go to hell for eternity.

I argue this for a few reasons.

One, there is no such thing as "replacement theology". However, there is such a thing as "expansion theology" in the sense that true Israel has expanded to include both Jews and Gentiles and that the promises to Israel should be interpreted in light of this New Covenant reality. Jesus and the Apostles both acknowledge that not all Israel is really Israel.

Secondly, a belief in "replacement theology" doesn't contradict any of the major Christian creeds that have been the "foundation" of Christian thought for the past two millenia (Apostle's, Nicene, and Athanasian).

Thirdly, and most important, a person could be mistaken about the interpretation of the "Israel of God" and its implications for the church and ethnic Israel, yet this person could still be resting in the finished work of Christ for their salvation. We are saved sola gratia, sola fide.

*edit*

[i]"I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion (temporal 1000 year reign), and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, [u]and are true Christians[/u], think otherwise."[/i] - Justin Martyr (Dialog with Trypho)

With care in Christ,
Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2009/9/9 17:58Profile
Laviver
Member



Joined: 2009/1/11
Posts: 98


 Re:


Quote:
BibleGuy wrote
Hey, how is everyone?
Has anyone read "Heretics" by G.K. Chesterton?



Hey Bibleguy, if you're still here and listening, I have not read this little work of genius to answer your question. I have heard great things though, and have browsed its sequel Orthodoxy. Heresy worth the read? Why did you bring it up?

 2009/9/9 18:19Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Walter,

I wonder if you were sitting with me in my living room... would you be speaking to me in red? If so, I doubt you'd be able to draw me into a conversation about this.

But just let me say... I don't embrace replacement theology... nor Scofield dispensationalism either.

What I embrace is what perhaps I will call "making-all-things-new" theology... which is perhaps similar to what Taylor calls "expansion theology," in which, under the New Covenant, God has brought into being a new Israel that includes both Jew and Gentile, who in Christ are heirs together of the promises. (Edit: So the church doesn't "replace" Israel: it brings the believing Gentiles in and includes them with believing Jews in an Israel made new under a New Covenant.)

As to the land God promised Israel of old, even Abraham, Isaac and Jacob of old had vision enough to see something better than that... along with all those the writer of Hebrews had in mind when he said, "But now they desire a better (country), that is an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for He hath prepared for them a city" (Heb. 11.16).

Notice that: a BETTER.

Our true heritage now-- both for the Jew and the Gentile-- is "in the heavenlies in Christ." And I'm not just talking about dying and going to heaven. It's a reality God is calling us to enter into here and now. Yet it seems all too often that is so unreal to us, too ethereal, just too far out.

But it is our heritage in Christ Jesus. Read 1 Peter 1.3,4. "An inheritance... reserved in the heavenlies for you..." Read Ephesians. It's so clear there, particularly Eph. 2.11,12,13, where the Gentiles (of which I am one) who at one time were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise..." are now "made nigh by the blood of Christ."

...Walter, we can think ourselves so valiant for the truth, yet can actually be tearing Truth Himself with a wrong attitude toward others.

...May the Lord bless you, brother. I mean that sincerely. Some of your posts on this sight I have sincerely appreciated.

AD


_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/9/9 18:37Profile









 Re:



Dear ADisciple:

Thanks for explaining your views. It would be helpful to all of us if you would use Scripture to support each and every one of them.
Thanks,

Walter :-D

Quote:

ADisciple wrote:
Walter,

I wonder if you were sitting with me in my living room... would you be speaking to me in red? If so, I doubt you'd be able to draw me into a conversation about this.

But just let me say... I don't embrace replacement theology... nor Scofield dispensationalism either.

What I embrace is what perhaps I will call "making-all-things-new" theology... which is perhaps similar to what Taylor calls "expansion theology," in which, under the New Covenant, God has brought into being a new Israel that includes both Jew and Gentile, who in Christ are heirs together of the promises. (Edit: So the church doesn't "replace" Israel: it brings the believing Gentiles in and includes them with believing Jews in an Israel made new under a New Covenant.)

As to the land God promised Israel of old, even Abraham, Isaac and Jacob of old had vision enough to see something better than that... along with all those the writer of Hebrews had in mind when he said, "But now they desire a better (country), that is an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for He hath prepared for them a city" (Heb. 11.16).

Notice that: a BETTER.

Our true heritage now-- both for the Jew and the Gentile-- is "in the heavenlies in Christ." And I'm not just talking about dying and going to heaven. It's a reality God is calling us to enter into here and now. Yet it seems all too often that is so unreal to us, too ethereal, just too far out.

But it is our heritage in Christ Jesus. Read 1 Peter 1.3,4. "An inheritance... reserved in the heavenlies for you..." Read Ephesians. It's so clear there, particularly Eph. 2.11,12,13, where the Gentiles (of which I am one) who at one time were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise..." are now "made nigh by the blood of Christ."

...Walter, we can think ourselves so valiant for the truth, yet can actually be tearing Truth Himself with a wrong attitude toward others.

...May the Lord bless you, brother. I mean that sincerely. Some of your posts on this sight I have sincerely appreciated.

AD


 2009/9/9 21:11
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1330


 Re:

Quote:

TaylorOtwell wrote:
waltern,

I'm not so sure we can honestly term "replacement theology" as "damnable heresy". "Damnable heresy" means that if you hold to the said belief, you will go to hell for eternity.

I argue this for a few reasons.

One, there is no such thing as "replacement theology". However, there is such a thing as "expansion theology" in the sense that true Israel has expanded to include both Jews and Gentiles and that the promises to Israel should be interpreted in light of this New Covenant reality. Jesus and the Apostles both acknowledge that not all Israel is really Israel.

Secondly, a belief in "replacement theology" doesn't contradict any of the major Christian creeds that have been the "foundation" of Christian thought for the past two millenia (Apostle's, Nicene, and Athanasian).

Thirdly, and most important, a person could be mistaken about the interpretation of the "Israel of God" and its implications for the church and ethnic Israel, yet this person could still be resting in the finished work of Christ for their salvation. We are saved sola gratia, sola fide.

*edit*

[i]"I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion (temporal 1000 year reign), and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, [u]and are true Christians[/u], think otherwise."[/i] - Justin Martyr (Dialog with Trypho)

With care in Christ,
Taylor



Thank you brother Taylor,

I just felt I needed comment and say that I appreciate you and your love for Christ. We may have disagreed in the past over doctrines and our limited understanding of predestination but I have counted you as a brother.

I also see nothing damnable about Adisciple's understanding concerning the Israel of God.

The bible talks about the jews, gentiles, and the church of God. The church of God is made of believing Jews & Gentiles. The bible says that we are all one in Christ.

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Ephesians 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Ephesians 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Ephesians 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Galatians 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Blessings to all!

 2009/9/9 22:34Profile





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