SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : how does a new testament prophet equip the saint for work?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 )
PosterThread









 Re: how does a new testament prophet equip the saint for work?

Quote:
so the Apostle is like grandad, the teacher like dad, the prophet like mother, the evangelist like big brother(who shows you how to play ball)haha

This sounds like a hierarchy, which is not at all what those whole-person gifts (edit: to the church: end edit) are about. It is exactly because of thinking that a person becomes something because of their gift, that the charismatic movement got into so much trouble.

The gift always remains the possession of the Giver, and we are all equal. Now, Paul did seem to give the [u]gifts[/u] a hierarchy - but that's very different from attributing to the recipient of the gift, some special level of respect [i]because[/i] of the gift the Spirit distributed to them.

God is no respecter of persons in that sense, and there is a subtle distinction to be made between respecting the authority a person has from God because of their submission and obedience to Him (and therefore their role in the church order eg elder or deacon), and, assuming the person is something special because of the gifts God has given him or her.

A point made in Dutch Sheets' open letter after the Florida 'revival' early this year, (pasted in full somewhere on SI) is the reminder that the operation of the gifts validates [u]God's[/u] character, not the character of the gifted one. In other words, a person doesn't become an elder (for instance) because of any of the gifts God gave them when they were born again, but because they demonstrate by their life, a knowledge of God which has equipped them to take oversight of the flock, in company with other spiritually well-prepared men from amongst them (the flock).

 2009/7/25 6:30
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: The Art of Prophesying

Here is a free online version of the book brother Paul mentioned;

[url=http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/perkins_prophesying.html]The Art of Prophesying[/url]
William Perkins (1558-1602)

Highly recommended - In fact, it is so counterintuitive to what the modern day definition has become that it may seem almost foreign to some ears. The nomenclature used today is telling enough;

"Moving", "Releasing", even scriptural words like "Anointing" are wretched from the moors or stretched into catch phrases that elevate the "Prophet" into some kind of physic specialist that speaks forth 'words' [i]directly[/i] from the mind of God. A true elongating of the imagination and too often catered from an over-evaluated sense of self importance, if not down right spiritual pride.

Running under the modern day definition are multitudes 'speaking forth' any amount of plain gibberish, blown calls, futuristic imaginative events that never come to pass and even more rare are confessed as error when they are obviously known. The argument from the self implied titlist that can squirm out of a failed utterance by arguing scripture that a 'prophet' never has to be 100% correct - Or utilizing the span of time and forgetful memories only to return as a new version of the same old quackery ...

There is more nonsense, more deliberate and\or unintentional fall out from this misconstruing of prophets\prophecy\prophesying than anything in the world of Christendom. This is now a man made and fallen man designed crossing of the wires by futile minds that hardly anyone wishes to confront. I feel that the reason for it is baked into the quasi- modern day definition - That is, that these so called prophets think they alone have some direct pipeline to God's ear that the poor minions beneath them (also an attribute that fuels their elevation) do not. So they buy up their wares, their tapes and books and run to conferences to get a 'word' about tomorrow, the state of the economy, the coming NWO, the end of the world ... the filling of their bank accounts, any notion or astral projection that their minds can create. To make it even more sporting, these things are spoken almost always in such vague vernacular as to leave the supporters defending by endless extrapolations and argument (something never left short around these parts) and the detractors burdened with excessive 'proving' of that which never had any underlying support in the first place. Who has the wherewithal to play lawyer and investigator-mediator to unravel abstract mysteries that are not of the Lord, but of mens imaginations?

All of it is due to a faulty foundation and misconstrued defention. Things stated 30 days ago, 6 months or 2 years back that never came to pass - The fear and anxiety created, the lives effected of both the gullible and sincere - Decisions made and based on foolish men giving away parts of their minds they cannot afford to lose. Never is it as simple as that account in Acts 11:28, an Agabus today would be paraded and pushed into prominence practically, rather than quietly fading into the backdrop as he did.

There is no end to the disdain I have for this and the bizarre, thoughtless pawning after mere men and now women with their 'extreme prophetic' Christianized equivalent of calling up the Physic Hotline. There is no difference, it is the exact same thing with a dose of abused scriptural vocabulary thrown in for good measure. The manipulation aspect alone enough for pages of rebuke ...

"Anything goes" is the new mantra by example more than forethought. Drunken Holy Ghost parties, stupefying manifestations and verbalized 'communications' that are completely out of character with what is known in and out from scripture. To attempt to bring it back to these foundations is to raise a cry of fowl, ill-will and hard line bible-based truths bereft of the Spirit. It's a clever twist and often a diabolical one where the mob rules, shouting down the supposed naysayers.

Trying to get a simplistic, one line sentence to this original question is something that has alluded many of us here over the years. Too many barnacles to deal with, too many voices clamoring for attention and endless 'what abouts' and 'what if' styled scenarios that often keeps us chasing our own tails. I am certain that no matter of due diligence will persuade many that what they thought was exemplary, right and true is nothing more than that unfortunate misleading that is 2Ti 4:3.

Apologize if this is seemingly out of place and a bit over the top from the original question, I don't think it will ever leave me until this version of the whole mess it has become is eradicated.

An excerpt from the book;

[b]I. THE ART OF PROPHECY[/b]

There are two parts to prophecy: preaching the Word and public prayer. For the prophet (that is, the minister of the Word) has only two duties. One is preaching the Word, and the other is praying to God in the name of the people: 'Having ... prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith' (Rom. 12:6); 'Restore the man's wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you shall live' (Gen. 20:7). Notice that in Scripture the word 'prophecy' is used of prayer as well as of preaching: 'The sons of Asaph, of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, stringed instruments, and cymbals' (1 Chron. 25:1); 'The prophets of Baal called on the name of Baal from morning even till noon ... And when midday was past, they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice . . .' (1 Kings 18:26, 29). Thus every prophet's [ask is to speak partly as the voice of God (in preaching), and partly as the voice of the people (in praying): 'If you take out the precious from the vile, You shall be as My mouth' (Jer. 15:19); 'And Ezra blessed the Lord, the great God. Then all the people answered, "Amen, Amen!"' (Neh. 8:6).


_________________
Mike Balog

 2009/7/25 9:59Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Mike,

The reason why Perkins' book goes unheeded and unread [i]en masse[/i] is because it has no charm, no allurment factor to the puerile gift-seeking believer. Christians instead want to read books that purport we obtain [i]real, visceral[/i] power through these gifts, on the manifestive level of a magician, wizard, or clairvoyant. Like Simeon the Sorceror, it must be something tangible and outward to galvanize the senses and thus foster a coveting for the "gift" - to the extent of even buying knowledge of how to obtain the gift, though books, and/or seminars. But to merely bring forth the burden of God with an unseen unction and with a low and humble spirit...well, this is not interesting, not captivating enough, for it has no outer flash or pizzaz. It does absolutely nothing to elevate the seeker in the eyes of others [i]as one who has obtained power.[/i] This is precisely the reason why prognostication and soothsaying have become intrinsically linked to the believer's definition of "prophesy". Everyone oohs and aahs when a "prophet" comes upon the scene to make a prediction and proclaim a "thus sayeth the Lord". How often, even here on SermonIndex, have we seen this sort of thing. Well-meaning believers with a wrong understanding of the gift, coming forth to issue their prophecies - unsolicited like door-to-door insurance salesmen - only to polarize the people and cause rifts. When their authority in God is questioned in any aspect, instead of humbly bowing and allowing God to vindicate their position, they vituperate in defense and thus disclose their true proximity in relation to God.

All this could be avoided if the Bible were read carefully, studiously and without the help of charismatic books, or unbiasedly as though reading the Scriptures for the first time, without any denominational lense or filter. To do a true, in-depth study on the office and gift of a prophet, as it pertains to both the Old Testament and New Testament. And, in particular, to pay close attention to the [i]context[/i] of the verse or passage each time the terms prophet and prophecy are mentioned.

An especially enlightening study would be a good look at the terms "preach" and "prophesy", as they relate to each other, and how they are used in the Greek texts. Juxtapose them, and pray the Holy Spirit open our understanding so that we avoid falling into deception on account of our lack of knowledge of the truth. Only then can we really "know the truth" on this topic, and the truth, in turn, shall set us free.




_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2009/7/25 11:46Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers are not meant to be positioned on any rung of the ladder, but rather to occupy the position below the ladder. (I don't think the "ladder" should exist at all) They are foundational servant leaders to the body of Christ. They are not "special" in respect to their calling and should not be viewed as anything other than servants who called to equip the body. This is the position Paul saw himself in, and rightly so. Romans 1:1, Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle.... Notice that he is a servant first, then called to be an apostle. Apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher are not titles, nor are they hierarchical positions. They are callings with a unique equipping function. These are not men or women who are somehow "on God's in list" to a higher degree then anyone else in the body. Stephen is never called an apostle, prophet, or anything else. He was a deacon if you want to use that term who was put in charge of the "meals on wheels" ministry to the Grecian widows so that those with the specific calling to equip could devote themselves to that calling. He was very mightily used of God and was a powerful man in the spirit. Was one calling more important than another? Possibly in function since if no one is equipped, now can the work of the ministry be accomplished. However, to view these five specific callings as some kind of elevated office or position is not, in my view, appropriate. I too am saddened when carnal men try to elevate themselves by claiming to be a "prophet" or an "apostle". These are not elevated positions, but callings for which God will definitely hold us to a higher degree of responsibility. James 3:1 (The word masters is the word didaskalos which means teacher.) Sure, we must have a leadership structure, but the one that Jesus modeled for us. Those who would be great in the kingdom (meaning there is such a thing as greatness in the kingdom) must be the servant of all.


_________________
Travis

 2009/7/25 20:05Profile





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy