amen ! phillip , great post . It is by grace , but does grace enable us or does it show us where we can do all Things THROUGH CHRIST , God saves us by His Grace and this Grace shows us al the I CAN DO's that are in Christ, by faith [ commitment ] to Him . We are responsible to obey the great law for ourselves , if this were not the case salvation , through , the atonement of Christ , would not be by Grace . thanks for you posts phillip , Clint .

_________________
Clint Demoret

do you know what being " IN CHRIST ' is ? Do you know what having the , " MIND OF CHRIST " is ? when we have the same mind as Christ , we see that WE CAN OBEY ALL THE LAW OF GOD . this obedience comes from a new heart which a new heart is a ,new motive , or fountain , or a new vine [ a place of nourishment ] that we are in . This new and living way , that, we as Christians partake of shows HOW WE CAN DO ALL THINGS THROUGH CHRIST . Through Christ , does not mean He obeyed for us , it means THROUGH HIM < WE CAN OBEY ALL THE LAW OF GOD > THIS IS GRACE < and this GRACE , is all our sufficiency . Clint

_________________
Clint Demoret

BE YE is a command . when God says to us , BE YE , Holy as I am Holy , and Be Ye , perfect as I am perfect . it means just that . Jesus is the author and PERFECTER of our commitment [ faith ] Jesus came to show us HOW TO BE PERFECTLY OBEDIENT TO THE LAW OF LOVE , in other words to ALL THE LAW OF GOD . By Grace , through faith [ commitment ] to Jesus this happens . Perfection is a promise and a commandment from God . And this is attainable in this life , Through being in Christ , and seeing that He is true and faithful to His promises fulfillment . Clint .

_________________
Clint Demoret

"do you know what being " IN CHRIST ' is ? Do you know what having the , " MIND OF CHRIST " is ? when we have the same mind as Christ , we see that WE CAN OBEY ALL THE LAW OF GOD ."clintstone

I believe I do know which is why I understand that apart from Him I can do nothing, just as He stated in the Gospels. Without Him I cannot obey as I should. Scripture states that Christ fulfilled the law, so it is in Him we have a righteousness, which was first born out of my faith in Him.

I could not have known the mind of Christ by obedience alone, I have to believe He is who He says He is and did what the Bible said He did via the wooing and revelation of the Holy Spirit. I can't work my way into knowing Him and I'm not saying you believe this, but we must also understand what it means to have faith apart from the law, for it is in this faith that we can start to become obedient in Him. The revelation of the Holy Spirit concerning the mind of Christ doesn't come by intellect or outward displays of obedience, it comes by a faithful and passionate pursuance via our faith in Him, and His faithfulness to us.

It is in this relationship that I am able to be an obedient child of God. My experience has been that whenever I've made a gritty determination to obey God's commands in my own strength and will, my next stumble was not far away. I'm glad His mercy was there to pick me up or else I would have let the enemy condemn me to an indefinite state of failure. Although my determination was a sincere attempt to please God, it was also a faithless act of righteous autonomy on my part. I think much of this was driven by 'fear of failure' to obey God. This fear produces a cycle of anxiety that puts us into bondage and now our righteousness is once again solely determined by our own strength to obey. Our success and failure then becomes a meticulous tracking of all sin and obedience that leaves Christ nowhere to be found because of our worrisome and anxious paralysis. There is no freedom in this.... there is no faith in this. This isn't freedom to disobey for Christ didn't die to create more sin, but it's freedom that enables us to let the Holy Spirit work in us a regeneration that produces the likeness of Christ without our own stubborn self-intervention. We have to get out of the way and avoid our natural inclination that likes to take over. And we have to have faith in the power of mercy and forgiveness in Christ if we stumble. If righteousness is determined exclusively by success or failure in perfect obedience, then we heap a load of unneccesary condemnation upon ourselves and paradoxically drive ourselves further from Christ. If Christ is truly in us then He will complete a work in us that He began as stated in Philippians 1:6. Anyway this has been my past experience.

I don't hear too many people saying that obedience to God's commands isn't important, but that faith is just as important and virtuous.

Thank you Clint for the conformation that the Christ in me is the Christ in you and my fellow brethern. It is all of Christ and none of me, unless it is me as Him coming forth, "He must increase and I must decrease". The more I decrease the more I have the desire of my heart, that being loving My Father as He needs to be loved which I cannot do of my own, but by the Christ in me who is the Lover, I can love Him and all that The Father has given me in the Fulness of the God Head, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and can love one another as He has loved me and gave Himself for me, ""US"".

In The Love of Christ coming forth from me as Him, who loved me first: Phillip

_________________
Phillip

ccrider , you have just written here, one of the most excellent posts ! this is all truth and easy to understand . I do agree whole heartedly ! that In Christ there is absolutely no toiling or spinning . In Him , there is only rest for our souls and a New and Living Way, for us to walk in all the day long . Knowing the work of the cross and carrying it daily , is all that is needed for this new and living way ,that is opened to us as we abide in Christ , to be made known and revealed to a lost and dying world . Exalting Jesus should be all there is , and all that is done by us Christians , this always happens through faith [ commitment] too ,and in Him . God bless you ! Clint.

_________________
Clint Demoret

How can one loose so great a salvation? If we by the Word look at the Cross and Christ with a bloody crown of thorns, His face covered with blood and spit, His back in shreds, a gapeing hole in His side, a dead head on dead shoulders, and all His precious perfect sinless blood, running down the Cross and in pools on the ground, how can we say that the effecacy of that blood looses its power by what the sinner does? Those that are Christs are His to keep and He will loose none, He proclaims this. His Father will give none to Him that are not kept by the Power of His Blood and His obedience to the Father, even unto death on the Cross.

Those that are in Christ and Christ in them are kept by this power that the Father has put in that shed blood and His perfect sinless life given for those that are now His. None will be lost that are Given Him by the Father, no one can take them out of His hands.

No, a thousand times No, the Salvation of God cannot be lost by the sinner saved by Grace through Faith. That would make the sinner stronger than God and the Cross of Christ of no avail.

In Christ: Phillip

_________________
Phillip

_________________
Adam

If it is not possible to lose your salvation then why are there so many warnings in the New Testament given both to the disciples and to the church? I hope no newborn Christians are reading this long drawn out debate. YES you can if you do not follow HIM. There were 12 disciples. 11 yielded to HIM and followed Him all the way. One strayed, and yielded to the wrong spirit-and perished. We're warned to take heed not to be deceived. Take heed those who think they stand lest they fall. Walk worthy of your vocation. Pray you are counted worthy to stand before Him on that day. Take heed lest you are overcome by surfeiting and the excesses and cares of this life. (Luk 21:34) Over indulgence will slow you down and you won't be sober, alert, and on guard. Watch and pray, He said. We are warned against the works of the flesh and if we are walking in the self, refusing to let HIM be Lord, we will not be ready to go when He comes. No sin gets in where He is. He is coming after a bride who is purified. The only perfection we have is HIM. Our self life must decrease so His supernatural life in us can increase. The more of Him we have the more holiness and perfection we have. We must be filled with the Holy Ghost-and that is not an option but a command. (Eph 5:18) No man can truly say Jesus is Lord but by the power of the Holy Ghost. It takes power from on High to live this life of Christ in us and through us.

God's people should not be debating His Word! It's not ours to prove or back up but to read and know and live by HIS Spirit. Anyone can understand the Word of God and its application to their lives if they get alone with God and offer Him a hungry heart. And if you will read the last few verses of Romans 1, you see debate is included as wickedness
because it leads to quarreling, contention and striving over what He said-which just leads to more of the same. Jesus taught the Word, He did not involve Himself in unfruitful debates, and when they tried to draw Him into one, He confounded their religious wisdom, and left them speechless with a few words. NO sin and no taking this great salvation forgranted and hearing it spoken of as lightly and matter of factly as it has been here will be tolerated. This is a precious gift, and the price was unspeakably high. You need only to look at the cross, at the suffering He bore to see how God hates sin.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Do you not know every time the Spirit of God deals with us about something in our lives, and we choose to spare self rather than deny self we take self off that cross and that life of Christ we were given when we were born again is once again crucified in us? Make no mistake there is a cross in the life of every believer. So who is on ours? Self or Christ? Only knowing Him (which will cost us) will lead to loving Him enough to reject ourselves and embrace Him. This is the work of the Holy Spirit in us. It's a progressive, daily work. It doesn't happen all at once. But He knows those who are truly His and those who are too proud to examine themselves and see if they got it wrong. He suffered greatly for this salvation we received. To take it so lightly, to spend endless hours debating whether we can sin and get by with it and stay saved reveals a heart in need of divine help. I normally avoid the discussion forums because for the most part it's a debating society-which we are not to be. But I pray God help us all learn and walk in His truth. If you would love your soul enough to take time to check this link, it's a short read and will clarify quite a few things. Beloved, just ask yourself this: are you giving the One you call Lord as much of your time as you spend on here debating what He said? Are you a hearer or a doer? Only the doers will justified.

[url=http://www.schoolofchristinternational.com/predesk/agentofgod.html]Debating Society or Agent of God? [/url]

_________________
Kathleen

Kathleen,

I was reading a man's quote, Billy7, this morning, [i]"Once you’re saved, you’re always saved as long as you’re saved"[/i] by Winkie Pratney. I thought, "Now, I agree with that kind of eternal salvation!!"

I was reminded of that when you wrote: [i]YES you can if you do not follow HIM. There were 12 disciples. 11 yielded to HIM and followed Him all the way. One strayed, and yielded to the wrong spirit-and perished. We're warned to take heed not to be deceived.[/i]

And thank you for this: [i]God's people should not be debating His Word! It's not ours to prove or back up but to read and know and live by HIS Spirit. [/i]

God bless you

_________________
Lisa