| Poster | Thread | whyme
Member
Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293
| | Re: | | Hmmm, First, let me say I am always humbled by your sincere and honest approach to Scripture. I don't disagree with anything you stated in your last post about love being a choice ( although this principle isn't really scripturally expressed ), about us cooperating in our sanctification, or about God not forcing men into heaven. What we are evaluating is what is accomplished in regeneration and whether the change can be temporary spiritual life or whether it is eternal life. I think First John tells us a great deal about what the born again believer's nature is and what that new nature causes the believer to do. Further, if Christ is interceding for us everyday so that as John 17 says we as believers will be one with the Father even as the Father and Jesus are one, you end up with your position then asserting that Christ's prayer may end up not being answered in the end with Amen. I find this very difficult to reconcile with what I know about Christ's position with the Father and with His authority over all flesh. Finally, I know you have taken a very definitive position that "all means all" in the Bible. I wonder why you wouldn't take the same position when Christ says "No One" and no power on heaven or earth shall pluck the believer from His hand. I say all this not to win a scriptural debate but because I think the apostle John and the apostle Paul for that matter said so much about the believer's security in Christ indicating a true concern that the Church know and more importantly understand it's corporate and personal position in Christ. Just in case it needs to be said, I am not saying the believer doesn't fall away at times, he does; I am addressing a final falling away.
|
|  2009/7/6 10:10 | Profile | yblek
Member
Joined: 2004/7/2
Posts: 35
| | Re: Sinning Leads To Death | | This question needs to be truly answered not on a person's opinion, but the Word of God. We have way too many believers trying to find teachers and preachers to say what they want to hear, rather than what God's Word says. Man's opinion has nothing to do with this and should be left out of the situation completely. If there is any example in Scripture of a believer (a follower of Christ) turning away and losing his/her salvation, then it is possible. The Bible warns repeatedly to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. We understand from the accounts found in Revelation of the Churches of Asia were warned of what could happen if the sin was not dealt with (Revelation Chapters 2 & 3)-with phrases like "I will vomit you out of my mouth" speaking of lukewarmness or "Your name removed from the Book of Life." If your name is in the Book of Life (which records those who have been redeemed, how can you have your named removed unless this can occur with an unrepentant believer thus who "falls away"). You can not erase a name unless it is there!
The example of Judas, the disciple of Christ who betrayed Jesus is a perfect example of turning from God. I know I have heard many refer to Judas as someone who was never a believer (totally not true). Those who hold to an unconditional eternal security doctrine MUST always use the terms "false conversion" or "never saved to begin with." If Judas was never a follower of Christ and never accepted Him like the other disciples, then how was he able to heal the sick, raise the dead, and perform all the other miracles the other disciples did according to the Gospels? Does God allow his glory and power to flow through unbelievers? Look in Luke Chapter 9:1 "Then He (Jesus) called His Twelve Disciples together (this included Judas), and gave them power and authority over all devils and cure diseases. Why would a holy God give a false conversion, never saved to begin with person power and authority over all devils and cure diseases? Jesus could not have given Judas this power unless he was truly a follower of Christ. Either all the disciples were followers of Jesus or the requirements for ministry to be empowered by God contradict the Word of God, which it can not. I know some would say this is before the Cross, so the situation was still under the Law, not Grace. All the saints had to look towards the Cross by obeying the Law and fulfilling the requirements through animal sacrifice to have their sins covered until Jesus removed that by becoming the perfect sacrifice. All sin has been removed by the blood of the Lamb, including the sins that Judas committed. However, due to the fact Judas could not find repentance for his actions, he turned away from God and received as Acts 1:25 says "by transgression fell" referring to Judas. If Judas was not an apostle of Christ, why was he being replaced?
The Word of God clearly speaks of "falling away" in the last days in 1 Timothy 4:1 by saying "some will depart from the faith." How can a person leave or depart unless they have been there? If a person is at the airport and a plane departs from the terminal, the airplane had to be there to begin with. How can a believer depart the faith unless they are a believer? Unconditional eternal security is one of the most destructive teachings found in Christian thinking (this comes from the five points of John Calvin's teaching). Basically, it is based on the other four teachings Calvin and others suggested to explain this final part of the TULIP doctrine. For those who do not know this teaching it means the following:
T-Total Depravity of man (Man could not save him/her self-no free will in salvation-God picks you and you CAN NOT come to God unless invited or being called the "elect"
U-Unmerited Favor (Grace is not earned or gained, but given by God).
L-Limited Atonement of Christ (Jesus only died for the elect-not everyone-THIS IS THE MOST DEVIL INSPIRED DOCTRINE! Jesus died for ALL not some, His Blood is able to forgive ALL!) Preachers, missionaries, and evangelists every day are lying to millions when they offer salvation to the unelect (those who Jesus did not die for according to this false doctrine) by saying they can come to Christ and be saved! Quit preaching the Gospel and telling everyone they can be saved, because the elect will be saved no matter what man does! What a hellish doctrine this is!
I-Irresistible Grace- Once you have been given grace by God, you CAN NOT reject or turn from it. If God predestined you to be saved, you can not reject it no matter what you do.
P-Perseverance of the Saints (Unconditional Eternal Security) This only follows all the other thoughts of the following teachings. You can not lose your salvation if the other four teachings are correct. It is like a five story building, you can not build the fifth story unless you have the other four stories to build on.
Finally, if I am wrong in my understanding of what Scripture is saying, I will still be able to repentant and make my life in right standing with God by asking Jesus to forgive me when I sin. If those who thought they were right and could not lose their salvation and continue in sin are wrong, they will give an account for their sins that are not confessed and repented of. I would rather side on the side of caution and work out my salvation with the Lord's grace and strength instead of hoping to be correct.
God Bless
_________________
Kelby
|
| | 2009/7/6 10:10 | Profile | davym
Member
Joined: 2007/5/22
Posts: 326
| | Re: | | True Witness
AMEN
_________________
David
|
| | 2009/7/6 10:12 | Profile |
| | Re: | | The question isnt can a born again Christian lose their salvation and end up in hell... the question is are you truly born again?
Most who claim to be born again are not.
Krispy |
| | 2009/7/6 10:22 | | yblek
Member
Joined: 2004/7/2
Posts: 35
| | Re: | | The thread question is "Can a born again Christian lose their salvation and end up in hell?"
To be truly born again is a very important question since Barna studies state exactly what you are saying. Most in the church today have never truly repented and turned to Christ for salvation. We have too many self-help messages instead of the Gospel being preached in our churches. If John the Baptist were to walk in most churches, he would still preach the same message he did as the fore=runner for Christ. Repentance is something hardly preached and understood within the church today!
_________________
Kelby
|
| | 2009/7/6 10:31 | Profile | hmmhmm
Member
Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden
| | Re: | | Quote:
Then you are saying that a person can be justified by faith and then at some point subsequently can be unjustified. If God justifies somebody is that person not then justified? Are they only potentially justified? Or justified for as long as they hold on to it? This would make our salvation dependent on us i.e. God's will subject to our will. This cannot be.
well its a to complex question for a short simple answer, but ill try :-)
God justifies, or i will use the word saves because of the initial question, God saved us, it was all by him, but he also saved the isralites from egypt, he split the red sea, yes moses put his rod in the water on Gods command and the sea opened, but i think even tho moses could have said i dont want to and taken the consequences from that he did have a part in doing obeying the word, but it was all of God. It was all of God sending food from heaven, yet how many of the saved isralites where led into the promised land? i hope it will be a larger portion in our sojourn from here to heaven, but i think God saved them and due to their life, attitude, sin, rebellion God did not lead them into the promise land. This Paul writes to us as a warning. all those isralites drank from Christ [b]spiritually[/b].... they where believers, chosen by God , saved all by God, and yet somehow he left them to die because of their sins, attitude and much more.
We are told we have put off the old man, like any garment i believe you want that filthy old stinking garment bad enough you can put it on again. Just my thinking.
_________________
CHRISTIAN
|
| | 2009/7/6 10:50 | Profile | tjservant
Member
Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA
| | Re: | | Quote:
whyme wrote:
Regeneration is NOT accomplished by the will of man. As such, it cannot be lost by the will of man. Faith is an outcome of regeneration, not the cause of it. The book of 1JOhn was written to provide assurance to the believers of their position in God. Note how the writer balances the test on regeneration and not on the works of men (ie., believing, obedience and disobedience, charity ). We look for the these work/signs as evidence of being born again or regeneration, not the cause of it. John wrote this book primarily in his own words to assure the reader. Many very real Christians who hold to the position of "unsure salvation" are unknowingly working in the other direction. I say that with a broken heart because a great harm occurs among the brethern when their salvation in their minds becomes dependent on what they do and not on what Christ has accomplished for them and what the Holy Spirit has done in them.
AMEN!
Quote:
Regeneration is NOT accomplished by the will of man. As such, it cannot be lost by the will of man. Faith is an outcome of regeneration, not the cause of it.
Amen, again. This really is key to understanding the issue. If you believe you saved yourself it is only logical to believe you can loose yourself. This is simply not correct doctrine. So much misunderstanding and confusion can be done away with by simply submitting to what the Bible teaches and dropping humanistic presuppositions. Not saying it is always easy, just that it is necessary.
It is sad to think of how many people believe that the only thing keeping them safely in their Father's Almighty hand is themselves.
_________________
TJ
|
| | 2009/7/6 10:55 | Profile | hmmhmm
Member
Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden
| | Re: | | Quote:
I know you have taken a very definitive position that "all means all" in the Bible. I wonder why you wouldn't take the same position when Christ says "No One"
I actually have, i do believe no one can separate us from Christ, not satan, no demon, no nero, no one can pluck us out of the fathers hand, as long as i remain in the fathers hand, i believe we could "jump out" from his hand if we want bad enough.
So i do believe nothing or no one can break us apart from christ, except i would do that myself, since i believe in love being the principal thing in our relationship with God, if this was not so, then he could have made Adam in such a way he could not chose to eat or not to eat, but since God wanted a "love-relationship" in obedience and in choosing to love God, he did not make adam such, and I dont think he makes us in such a way that if for some unimaginable reason one would prefer the self more then Him, that he would force us in some mysterious way so to speak.
I am not saying "this is how it is" "all you are wrong" but these are some "problems" i have with the once saved always saved, not the modern easy belivism stuff, but the old reformed stuff :-) some things i have not reconciled to LARGE parts of scripture, this is just a verse here or there losley ripped out of context, we have multitude of texts that seem to have the same fearful warnings, both to texts that can seemingly be to "unconverted" people, but also to definitely converted people, even tho i personally believe all scripture are written for Gods children and not for unbelievers.
_________________
CHRISTIAN
|
| | 2009/7/6 10:59 | Profile | whyme
Member
Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293
| | Re: | | Yblek, I am interested in your statement that Judas was definitely a believer. What is your basis for that? I haven't seen that before. |
| | 2009/7/6 11:01 | Profile | hmmhmm
Member
Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden
| | Re: | | Quote:
tjservant wrote:
It is sad to think of how many people believe that the only thing keeping them safely in their Father's Almighty hand is themselves.
I can see how you think and i would agree to some degree, but since i believe it is a co-operation, God says do this, i will give all my power, all my sustaining, persevering grace in unlimited ways, all is there for you, never fear anything.
I see this, but yet i believe some way in a co-operation between God and man, and by loves principal it is possible to chose "no"
I think we are to blind perhaps sometimes? to fixed in "must be one of those", i cant say i have figured it out, i definitely see what all are saying in scripture, and i agree, but I [b]also[/b] see the other side that no one on the always saved side has been able to explain in a way that satisfy my spirit and to reconcile it to the many many passages of scripture that does say something else, plainly. And i will just not say ok probably are you right because it make sense, no I want perfect peace in what i believe in, even if i cant figure it out and spell it out in words, by faith i can have peace, hope you know what i mean :-)
And i have read MUCH on this, from the old classical and sound teachers through out christendom, and the passages that make me go "there is more to this then osas" have not to me at least been dealt with in a way that i considered to be either true to the text at hand, or in a explaining away sort of to make the text "mean something else" then what is there, sometimes less, sometimes more. The closest i have found was H.Bonar, he gave an explanation to the letter hebrews with this issue of losing salvation, he explained why he did not believe one can lose salvation, but then he explain his fear of God makes him take the scripture on its word and if these verses are such verses he dares not say they meen anything else, and if that is the case we should fear, but he did not know for sure. That was sort of the closest i found yet.
But to me to cancel out ALL human choices, as in walking with God, time for Prayer and ect, giving time, money, to God as really we have no choice, and then sin for example? can we chose to sin or no? and if it is a yes? how much can we chose to depart from God if we are born again? a great deal i would assume from personal experience, but when does one cross the line? i dont know, but i am certain push and run far enough, one day we may find we crossed that line.
_________________
CHRISTIAN
|
| | 2009/7/6 11:12 | Profile |
|
