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msg7007
Member



Joined: 2010/4/1
Posts: 1


 Re:

I too just joined this site, looking for extra bits of information as well as trying to find more sermons preached by Pastor Prince. I support everything you said w.r.t. Pastor Prince. He is a Grace Preacher! Make no mistake, there is a difference. He said in one of his sermons that the WoF movement 'has taken faith and reduced it to a formula.' I too challenge our traditional understanding of christianity. If it is true that all our sins past, present, and future are forgiven, then why don't we hear more of this from the pulpit??? I'm telling you, I left church many a Sunday (and even Sabbath) feeling a deep seated guilt. You know, the kind that you have difficulty putting a finger on. The kind that makes you feel that something is wrong, but you don't know where to begin. Under Pastor Prince's preaching, I've learned that this is the consciousness of sin(he actually calls this the sin conscience, which really is our flesh) and it has no more authority in the christian life! We are free from condemnation, indeed! I wish I heard this published more often from the pulpit! Is it true that I'm the righteousness of God in Christ? Then what's wrong with believing it? There is a lot more wrong if fact, if I don't! Brother (or Sister) I think that the message he is preaching is a breath of fresh air!
I love Pastor John MacArthur, Chuck Swindoll, and Adrian Rogers. These could be considered your more conservative, middle of the road Baptist preachers. They expose the scriptures quite well. I myself am pentecostal in terms of denominational preference. I accept the gifts of the Spirit, without reservation. But I also believe in sound teaching of scripture. I am also aware that those who keep their eyes on the systematic teaching only, risk remaining pragmatic in their approach and service to God, while God doesn't fit our human 'box' of thinking. Yes, the scriptures alone lead us to know God, but we need His Spirit. He is God's power personified. The scriptures tell us what He does and expresses His omnipotent capabilities. Let God be the Sovereign that the scriptures say that He is! That means we should allow Him to work against the underpinnings of our christian culture.
Pastor Prince is basically telling us that if we truly believe what the scriptures say, then we can have it! And Brother (or Sister), I'm for that! I really believe that it is not God's will for us to be sick (although he may allow it and works through it). Although we may experience seasons of financial shortage, yet still I believe that it isn't God's will for us to be broke! I believe that God wants us to hold our heads high, knowing who we are in Christ and claiming everything that was given to Christ as our own (since as we are joint-heirs with Christ). If we simply accepted who we are in Christ, we will at some point experience the Supernatural (oops!). Is there anything wrong with that? Would I be considered a weird christian because of that? Maybe, but I would experience all of God's best because I would have significantly developed a conscience towards God's righteousness. Remember, a man becomes what he thinks! If we are continually conscious of our own sin, then we will be continually going to God about it (as is the present christian practices). For example, at the communion table, where we should be celebrating our justification, we'll continue to be asking God forgiveness for sins (as is the popular understanding)--that have already been forgiven, having accepted Christ. In everyday life, we will carry regrets, although Christ already bore them and took them away--for us. As a result, this constant self analysis of sin leads only to one result: sin consciousness. Yes, we understand that at this point we should become overwelmed by our need of the Saviour, and after this realization, we understand that when we accept God's Provision, that there is therefore no more condemnation. But is that the reality? Self analysis can easily become a self condemning process, which only stirs up more sin! We need to encourage ourselves that we are God's righteousness. We need to tell ourselves that we are God's purchased posession through Christ's blood! We ought to mutter to ourselves that we are His workmanship (trophies of His Grace). I think if we spent more time analysing what God graciously imputed to us, we would not have a lot of the problems that we have. And wherever there are problems, we would experience significant Divine intervention as a result of God's Wisdom. Why? Because we rely on His Grace.
I think we've spent more time relying on our own abilities, education, willpower, charisma, or faith to very little or no avail. God wants to manifest His kingdom in us. He wants us to experience all that his Grace has to offer. He isn't about seeing His children 'just get by.' I think we treat Grace like it is a healing balm that is to be used sparingly...because its too expensive. We fear that we will end up doing whatever we want and God won't take us up on our sin.
God has lavishly poured out his Grace on us. As his children, we are recipients of 'His lavish Grace.' Please, let's receive it!
Pastor Prince is teaching the church to celebrate her gift of righeousness that was given by God -- through Jesus! He is teaching us about the Superabundance of God's Grace! And it's all ours. It is in the celebrating of Christ's finished work that we truly reflect His character, and become all that the law really wants us to be to a lost and dying world. If we really believe this, then sin becomes grossly unattractive and is seen for what it is, a cheap way to temporary satisfaction and ultimately death! And guess what? We won't sin! Grace becomes more attractive and we become more like Christ. What wrong with preaching that leads us in that direction?
I want more of that kind of preaching!

 2010/4/1 16:28Profile
tbsounde2
Member



Joined: 2009/2/11
Posts: 179
Los Angeles, CA

 Re:

- Hi msg7007, so i am just a concerned brother in Christ that has heard and read some alarming things regarding pastor prince and i have been honestly trying to get to the truth in this matter. i just have some questions/points to some of the things you mentioned here so that we can dialogue and reason together, but just to introduce myself a bit, i am currently a 2nd year graduate student at ucla studying toward my ph.d in cellular and molecular pathology. i grew up in a church going family, but didn't come to truly meet the Lord Jesus Christ until about four years ago. since then, i have been striving to seek the Lord with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength and thus have been trying to correctly discern everything that comes my way no matter how convincing it may be. for example, i currently attend a fairly charismatic church, but no matter who comes to speak, even if it is my own pastor, i measure to the Word of God. i've seen some pretty crazy supernatural stuff happen enough to realize that not all of it is from God and how easy it is to get caught up in it and lose focus of Christ. and although i firmly believe in the gifts of the Spirit (prophesy, healing, etc) and try to use them for the edification of the Body every day, i put a bigger emphasis (over gifts, etc) on the Word of God. and thus, no matter how gifted someone is (naturally or supernaturally), i care more about what comes out of their mouth than what they can do with their natural/supernatural giftings. now that i've somewhat introduced myself, let's move onto our discussion:

quoted by msg7007: "I too just joined this site, looking for extra bits of information as well as trying to find more sermons preached by Pastor Prince. I support everything you said w.r.t. Pastor Prince. He is a Grace Preacher! Make no mistake, there is a difference. He said in one of his sermons that the WoF movement 'has taken faith and reduced it to a formula.' I too challenge our traditional understanding of christianity. If it is true that all our sins past, present, and future are forgiven, then why don't we hear more of this from the pulpit??? I'm telling you, I left church many a Sunday (and even Sabbath) feeling a deep seated guilt. You know, the kind that you have difficulty putting a finger on. The kind that makes you feel that something is wrong, but you don't know where to begin. Under Pastor Prince's preaching, I've learned that this is the consciousness of sin(he actually calls this the sin conscience, which really is our flesh) and it has no more authority in the christian life! We are free from condemnation, indeed! I wish I heard this published more often from the pulpit! Is it true that I'm the righteousness of God in Christ? Then what's wrong with believing it? There is a lot more wrong if fact, if I don't! Brother (or Sister) I think that the message he is preaching is a breath of fresh air!"

- this is something i noticed in pastor prince's message, a mixing up of the words "guilt" and "condemnation." these are actually two completely separate things. merriam webster dictionary defines guilt as: a feeling of culpability for offenses - in other words, an understanding that you did something wrong. the word condemnation is defined as passing of a sentence, doom. by using reason, one can come to agree that all condemnation stems from guilt, but that doesn't mean that all guilt leads to condemnation. guilt is just an awareness of sin, whereas condemnation is the just result of sin. so then the question comes to: did Jesus' death and resurrection remove guilt or condemnation? i would say that it is condemnation that was removed whereas guilt is necessary for every believer. i actually wrote a note on my blog about this a while back that i'll share with you here:

- "have you heard this saying before, that (for christians) feelings of guilt and condemnation are from satan. personally, i hear this all the time from people around me, and i totally ate it up without even thinking about it. this saying, that guilt and condemnation are from the devil is only a half truth (which makes it a lie). in actuality (for a genuine christian), condemnation is from satan, but guilt is from God and we as christians should feel guilty for our sins. now you may be thinking that i am out of my mind for saying this, but reason with me for a second. can you show me a verse from the bible that says that guilt comes from the devil? because i can't seem to find it. lets look at the definitions of the words to get a better idea. guilt is defined as: a feeling of culpability for offenses. condemnation is defined as: to pronounce guilty (sentence, doom). in other words, guilt is the realization of sin, whereas condemnation is the just result of the sin. see the difference? if you look at examples from the Word, time and time again you see people genuinely troubled (feelings of guilt) for their sins to the point of putting on sackcloth and ash! a prime example can be found in the writings of king david in the book of psalms. over half of his psalms are of him crying out to God because he is troubled by his sins and his transgressions before the Lord. the guy that was known as the man after God's own heart, was continually filled with guilt and troubled when he sinned against the Lord. but regardless of his lowly estate, he continued to seek the Lord with all his might. it is what you do with the guilt that defines where you stand before God. now, if you don't feel any guilt at all for your sins, i would have to say that you need to really question the genuineness of your salvation, because one of the primary workings of the Holy Spirit is to convict men of their sins (convict: to convince of error or sinfulness) to lead them to repentance. now, regarding what you do with your guilt, you can go down one of two ways: you can either fall into condemnation (depravity) and fall further away from the Lord or you can repent and cry out to the One who can pardon you. for as it says in the Word: a broken heart and a contrite spirit He will not despise. it is impossible to obtain salvation without genuine repentance. and there can be no repentance without a realization of sin (guilt), which is done by the work of the Holy Spirit (conviction of sin). and if the Holy Spirit is in you, you will continue to live a lifestyle of repentance, which is the process of sanctification and in accordance with bearing fruit in your life (matthew 3:8 - bear fruit in keeping with repentance). in essence, you should feel guilty for your sins, because in that guilt, you come to a place of genuine repentance before the Lord. but, it also allows you to understand and appreciate His grace that much more, because there is no understanding of grace without an understanding of sin"


quoted by msg7007: "I love Pastor John MacArthur, Chuck Swindoll, and Adrian Rogers. These could be considered your more conservative, middle of the road Baptist preachers. They expose the scriptures quite well. I myself am pentecostal in terms of denominational preference. I accept the gifts of the Spirit, without reservation. But I also believe in sound teaching of scripture."

- it is difficult for me to believe that you love the teachings of pastor john macarthur, because the things that he preaches are quite the opposite to what pastor prince is preaching. how do you reconcile this in your mind and your heart?

quoted by msg7007: "I am also aware that those who keep their eyes on the systematic teaching only, risk remaining pragmatic in their approach and service to God, while God doesn't fit our human 'box' of thinking. Yes, the scriptures alone lead us to know God, but we need His Spirit. He is God's power personified. The scriptures tell us what He does and expresses His omnipotent capabilities. Let God be the Sovereign that the scriptures say that He is! That means we should allow Him to work against the underpinnings of our christian culture."

- i think we many times misuse the phrase "putting God in a human box" to almost indirectly minimize the importance of scripture. paul even charged timothy with great urgency in 2 timothy 3:16-17 that "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work." and 2 timothy 4:1-2 "I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching."
and although i absolutely agree with you that it is the Holy Spirit that has to lead you through your study of scripture, many times we use the "Holy Spirit card" to indirectly say that we should not depend on doctrine and theology, which leads to the danger of putting too much emphasis on extrabiblical manifestations and experiences to mold our core theology and that is why we see many charismatics going a bit too far out there twisting scripture and taking things way out of context to fit their teachings. when i read verses like:

- deuteronomy 13:1-4 - 1"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, 'Let us go after other gods,' which you have not known, 'and let us serve them,' 3you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him.

- matthew 7:21-23 - 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

- 2 thessalonians 2:8-12 - 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

- 2 timothy 4:3-4 - 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

- i realize that the best, most solid, foundation we have is the Word of God. a thought that came to me recently pertaining to this is: signs and wonders and even a feeling of joy and peace can be the work of the devil, but the Word of God, spoken through man, woman, child, beast, or object remains the Word of God. and lastly on this point, the way you mentioned "That means we should allow Him to work against the underpinnings of our christian culture" is somewhat misleading because you are either directly or indirectly attributing "christian culture" with those who keep God in a box and rely "too much on scripture" (if that is even possible or a bad thing). although i agree with you that there are some who merely look to the surface of the Word and not into the heart of the Word, scripture is THE ESSENTIAL (over experiential) component to mold and dictate true and godly christian culture and theology.

quoted by msg7007: "Pastor Prince is basically telling us that if we truly believe what the scriptures say, then we can have it! And Brother (or Sister), I'm for that! I really believe that it is not God's will for us to be sick (although he may allow it and works through it). Although we may experience seasons of financial shortage, yet still I believe that it isn't God's will for us to be broke! I believe that God wants us to hold our heads high, knowing who we are in Christ and claiming everything that was given to Christ as our own (since as we are joint-heirs with Christ). If we simply accepted who we are in Christ, we will at some point experience the Supernatural (oops!). Is there anything wrong with that? Would I be considered a weird christian because of that?"

- i would have to disagree because faith is not blindly believing that something you want is something God wants to give you, or to give you at the moment. true faith is being content through whatever circumstance and having the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ be at the forefront of your heart. i come to this conclusion based on these verses:

- 2 corinthians 4:16-18 - 16So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. 17For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, 18 as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.

- philippians 3:7-11 - 7But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

- philippians 4:11-13 - 11Not that I am speaking of being in need, for I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content. 12 I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need. 13I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

- hebrews 12:1-11 - 1Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. 6For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives." 7It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

- also, to truly take everything that was given to Christ means that we must suffer as He suffered:

- matthew 16:24 - 24Then Jesus told his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

- romans 8:16-18 - 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. 18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

- philippians 1:29-30 - 29For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, 30engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.

- a thought that comes to mind regarding this: Jesus and the disciples did not have earthly prosperity, they suffered and endured hardship during their time on earth, and they rejoiced in it, so if Jesus meant earthly prosperity when He said "my peace i leave with you," then He was lying because not every believer, particularly the disciples and many many other believers had quite the opposite; but one thing they all had was a spiritual prosperity that is only available to those who truly believe.

quoted by msg7007: "Maybe, but I would experience all of God's best because I would have significantly developed a conscience towards God's righteousness. Remember, a man becomes what he thinks! If we are continually conscious of our own sin, then we will be continually going to God about it (as is the present christian practices). For example, at the communion table, where we should be celebrating our justification, we'll continue to be asking God forgiveness for sins (as is the popular understanding)--that have already been forgiven, having accepted Christ. In everyday life, we will carry regrets, although Christ already bore them and took them away--for us."

- actually, this is exactly the heart that king david showed to the Lord which is clearly evident in the book of psalms, which is one of the reasons he was called a man after God's own heart. he was continually crying out to God to search his heart and to bring to light all hidden sins: he was literally hungering and thirsting for righteousness, just like we should too as christians on this side of eternity (until perfection comes and we see face to face). paul even mentions that he himself has not fully attained to perfection yet, but strives toward perfection, philippians 3:12-14 - 12Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

- you might say that david was part of the "old covenant," but i would have to disagree, there is no difference between us as believers post Jesus and people like kind david and abraham. righteousness was credited to abraham way before the covenant and he is called by paul in romans 4:11 to be the father of all who believe. because the faith that saved them is the same faith that saves us, namely faith in God.

- i actually heard one of pastor princes sermon where he said that "Jesus' death is so powerful that there is not one speck of sin left in our lives." but this is not completely true. there is a difference between having no sin and being forgiven of all sins. it makes no sense to say that we are without sin, because it is clearly evident that every christian still sins. just because God forgives us of all our sins, doesn't mean that we don't sin anymore.

- romans 7:14-25 - 14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 21So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

- romans 8:10, 13 - 10But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

- 2 corinthians 7:8-11 - 8For even if I made you grieve with my letter, I do not regret it—though I did regret it, for I see that that letter grieved you, though only for a while. 9As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting. For you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us. 10For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death. 11For see what earnestness this godly grief has produced in you, but also what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what punishment! At every point you have proved yourselves innocent in the matter.

- philippians 3:12-14 - 12Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

- the main difference between a saved person and a person who is not saved can be found in their awareness of sin and the desire of their heart regarding sin. although every person, whether saved or unsaved has a conscience, a saved person has a growing awareness of sin, which stems from a growing knowledge of God's desires. this is most clearly shown in 2 peter 1:5-6 where he says "for this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness" in other words, that your faith which God has given you (from a glimpse of His love for lack of a better way to describe) should automatically cause you to desire virtue (goodness). that desire for goodness, which is to seek out what is pleasing to the Lord, leads you to study His Word which clearly shows what is and isn't pleasing to the Lord, which is the adding of knowledge to virtue. as that knowledge grows in you, you begin to deny your flesh and it's desires for the desires of the Lord which requires self-control. a lifestyle of self-control can be described as steadfastness in righteousness which can be summed up as godliness (hating the things that God hates and loving the things that God loves).

- i think people (even christians) have the wrong idea toward repentance. for some reason, people take it in a very negative light. God's grace is that you can repent, that every time you mess up, you still have a chance to turn back to the Lord, that is grace. and for some reason people automatically associate repentance with an angry God or something to that effect, but it shows the most beautiful and loving side of God. you see, the heart of repentance for a true believer, does not stem from the fear that God is going to reject you and cast you into hell for your sins, but stems from an understanding of His love for you that causes sorrow in your heart to grieve such a wonderful and loving and good God...let me give you an example: say that there is someone who really really loves you to the extent that no matter what you do, the person will continue to love you and you know this. and say that you happen to do something to hurt them. although you know that they aren't going to reject you, the fact that you know that they love you should automatically cause you to feel hurt and shame because you hurt the one that loves you...this is the same for us and our heart in repentance toward God.

- regarding communion, paul writes in 1 corinthians 11:27-32 that "whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. But when we judge ourselves truly, we would not be judged. But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we many not be condemned along with the world."

quoted by msg7007: "As a result, this constant self analysis of sin leads only to one result: sin consciousness. Yes, we understand that at this point we should become overwhelmed by our need of the Saviour, and after this realization, we understand that when we accept God's Provision, that there is therefore no more condemnation. But is that the reality? Self analysis can easily become a self condemning process, which only stirs up more sin! We need to encourage ourselves that we are God's righteousness."

- although it is true that self analysis can easily become a self condemning process, it doesn't mean it always does or has to (as i mentioned earlier on guilt vs condemnation). paul even writes in 2 corinthians 13:5 to "examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you fail to meet the test! and Jesus also said in john 16:8-11 "and when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because i go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged." There is also a huge difference between worldly sorrow and godly sorrow 2 corinthians 7:10

quoted by msg7007: "We need to tell ourselves that we are God's purchased posession through Christ's blood! We ought to mutter to ourselves that we are His workmanship (trophies of His Grace). I think if we spent more time analysing what God graciously imputed to us, we would not have a lot of the problems that we have. And wherever there are problems, we would experience significant Divine intervention as a result of God's Wisdom. Why? Because we rely on His Grace.
I think we've spent more time relying on our own abilities, education, willpower, charisma, or faith to very little or no avail. God wants to manifest His kingdom in us. He wants us to experience all that his Grace has to offer. He isn't about seeing His children 'just get by."

- i don't consider paul and the other apostles as "just getting by" even though they were poor and suffered tremendously so you might need to clarify this point. just because someone is poor or sick or whatever does not mean that they are "just getting by." quite the contrary, they are being molded and refined by God himself! that God is dealing with them personally for His glory because He disciplines the ones He love! an example that comes to mind is jacob and esau. the bible says that God loved jacob but hated esau. but when you read about them, they both had material blessings: wives, children, livestock, etc. so that leads to the question of how God showed love toward jacob and hatred toward esau? it was discipline...God let esau do whatever he wanted, but He dealt with jacob personally through discipline. in regards to health and worldly prosperity, scripture says that God causes the sun to shine on both the righteous and the wicked...so wealth and prosperity should never be used as a measure of one's right standing with God

quoted by msg7007: "I think we treat Grace like it is a healing balm that is to be used sparingly...because its too expensive. We fear that we will end up doing whatever we want and God won't take us up on our sin."

- not sure where you are coming from but i am assuming that you are saying that God's grace automatically entails health and worldly prosperity and that those who don't believe this are using His grace sparingly...and i would have to disagree...the real power of His grace is to take a rebellious and depraved heart and to turn it into one that abides in Him and our pilgrimage through this life is the beginning of the refining process to sanctify us and make us ready for eternity...themes which are clearly evident from the various different verses i mentioned earlier...also, just wondering, how do you reconcile persecution, trials, suffering, and tribulation with health and prosperity?

quoted by msg7007: "God has lavishly poured out his Grace on us. As his children, we are recipients of 'His lavish Grace.' Please, let's receive it!
Pastor Prince is teaching the church to celebrate her gift of righeousness that was given by God -- through Jesus! He is teaching us about the Superabundance of God's Grace! And it's all ours. It is in the celebrating of Christ's finished work that we truly reflect His character, and become all that the law really wants us to be to a lost and dying world. If we really believe this, then sin becomes grossly unattractive and is seen for what it is, a cheap way to temporary satisfaction and ultimately death! And guess what? We won't sin! Grace becomes more attractive and we become more like Christ. What wrong with preaching that leads us in that direction?
I want more of that kind of preaching!"

- celebrating Christ's finished work does not mean that we shouldn't wrestle against our flesh...it is because of Christ's finished work that we find hope even in the moments our flesh prevails over us...and although the work is finished, it doesn't mean that we have fully obtained to it on this side of eternity or else we would have already received our perfect angel like bodies now...but this is obviously not the case...trying to ignore sin will inadvertently blind you to hidden sins and although you may "feel" right, you will go on sinning without even realizing...which would be contrary to scripture which instructs us to examine our hearts in the light of His Word. although we know the outcome of the war, the fight is not over yet, not until we die and meet our Maker. salvation on this side of eternity pertains to our spirit whereas our flesh is still dead in sin and thus the fighting rages on in the battleground of our hearts and minds. once we die, we are completely free from sin and then on the day of resurrection and judgment, salvation in regards to our flesh is brought forth and the entire process of salvation is completed. (reasoning from romans 7 and verses pertaining to the final judgment in revelation)

- also, how do you reconcile pastor prince's teaching vs 1 john 1:8-10 - 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

- but yah, i sincerely hope that none of what i wrote is coming off in the wrong way to you, i am just writing honestly from what i truly feel that the Lord has been teaching me recently regarding these things. i look forward to your response so that we may reason together toward the truth. God bless =)

- your fellow brother in Christ,

- will


_________________
Will

 2010/7/29 23:08Profile









 Re: Joseph Prince


Greetings brethren,

I don't have much time online so I hope there will be other replies to the last two posts in this thread.

msg7007 wrote:

'If it is true that all our sins past, present, and future are forgiven, then why don't we hear more of this from the pulpit??? I'm telling you, I left church many a Sunday (and even Sabbath) feeling a deep seated guilt. You know, the kind that you have difficulty putting a finger on. The kind that makes you feel that something is wrong, but you don't know where to begin. Under Pastor Prince's preaching, I've learned that this is the consciousness of sin(he actually calls this the sin conscience, which really is our flesh) and it has no more authority in the christian life! We are free from condemnation, indeed! I wish I heard this published more often from the pulpit! Is it true that I'm the righteousness of God in Christ? Then what's wrong with believing it? There is a lot more wrong if fact, if I don't! Brother (or Sister) I think that the message he is preaching is a breath of fresh air!'


Personally, I think 'the consciousness of sin' is precisely that. Our sins, as yet uncommitted, have indeed been paid for by Christ, but we as believers do not FEEL our sins forgiven, unless we properly confess and repent of them, such that we consciously receive forgiveness.

Romans 3:25 '... to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;'

There is also a continuous cleansing from sin as we 'walk in the light as He is in the light' (1 John 1:7), which is to do with abiding in Him; living in the Spirit; walking in the Spirit. As we reckon ourselves dead in Him, and therefore dead to sin (Rom 6), we experience 'no condemnation' - Rom 8:1.

'Is it true that I'm the righteousness of God in Christ?'

1 Cor 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:


Does this verse say 'I am the righteousness of God in Christ'?

I don't think so.

It says: (my) being in Christ, (by faith being grafted into His death and resurrection) God makes Him ... 'righteousness' ... to me.

There is a world of difference. The emphasis is all on Christ and God. Nothing applies, unless 'I' am crucified with HIM.

Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are ... 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.


Dear msg7007, it's possible your deepest concerns are because you would do well to compare the ministry of Pastor Prince VERY closely with scripture, and with biblical expository writers of earlier centuries.

I love that Pastor Prince knows, and quotes, much scripture in his preaching, but I believe he does not use it in a way wholly compatible with the teachings of historic Christianity.

 2010/7/30 6:58
learn
Member



Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613


 Re:

Tbsounde2, thank you for your lovely post. You have blessed the forum by rightly dividing the word of God.

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The bible is full of words on straining to achieve the goal, persevering etc--ie showing great effort.

Reading Msg7007's interpretation, reminds me of sugar ie easy way, every good things for us. But the bible does not say that. In fact, the bible talks about dying to oneself, carrying one's cross, that we are to be the salt of the earth. When we are nailed to the cross, it means we die to self, we lose all our rights--completely opposite to what Joseph Prince talks about.

Matthew 13;44-46
The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it,he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field. Again the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it.

Notice the verses here. When you really receive God, you are willing/will give up everything to follow God. It does not say when you receive God, you will have all the material riches and health.


Matthew 6:19-21
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Matthew 6:24
No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You CANNOT SERVE BOTH GOD AND MONEY




_________________
geraldine

 2010/8/2 9:09Profile
openairboy
Member



Joined: 2003/9/22
Posts: 85


 Re:

I've only seen him a couple of times, but isn't there a worldliness to his disposition? I don't care too much what Christians wear, how they cut their hair, etc., but there seems to be a little to much "look at me" when he is on stage.

That, right there, just makes me hesitant in seeing him on TV.

Doesn't mean he has horrendous doctrine, a heretic, or anything like that, but I just find it strange.

Also, again, kind of lame, but aside from an autobiography, I find it odd when preachers put big pictures of themselves on the cover of one of their books.

 2010/8/4 12:14Profile









 False prophets

2Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

 2010/8/12 2:10
Josef83
Member



Joined: 2010/8/21
Posts: 111
Sweden

 Re:

I love too listen to Poonen
he is one of the strongest Holiness preachers out there.
And I always get convicted strongly about sins when I listen To poonen.
Poonen is humble thats the character of a true godly man.
to quote poonen.
anybody who askes for money is a false prophet

Prince though I dont like.
its another gospel

 2010/8/21 20:53Profile
castling
Member



Joined: 2010/3/10
Posts: 31


 Re:

How do we know whether someone is (i) a false teacher, or (ii) a true disciple of Christ but genuinely wrong?

We should not be too hasty in applying the "false" label. I have learnt this the hard way.

Some of these mega-churches and their respective preachers have imported dubious ideas and methods from other churches (especially from North America). This includes "theology" - e.g. word-of-faith, prosperity gospel... however, this does not mean that the real Christ is not preached, or that these preachers are apostate.

I have met people whom I have no doubt have a real and solid relationship with Jesus, but have adopted a few word-of-faith ideas which could have been gleaned from books or other preachers.

The reality is that all of us start off with "false" ideas about God, yet in John 7:17 the promise is - "If any man wills to do His will, he shall concerning the doctrine...". So as we grow in our relationship with God, our idea of Him will increasingly conform to the reality of Him. It will become increasingly clear which doctrines are of Him, and which are not of Him.

I have had some funny ideas in the past, some of which I generated in my flesh and others adopted from elsewhere. This included a lack of understanding of the reality of sin, my need for salvation, and what it means to fully surrender to Him. Yet I have no doubt that my commitment to Him was real from the onset of my Christian journey. And through His grace, He has corrected - and is still correcting - false ideas, and have enabled me to *experience* the *reality* of true doctrine.

Perhaps Joseph Prince's theological understanding could be "off" at some points - but dare we say that he does not have a real relationship with the living God?

May God teach us all things!

 2010/8/22 7:14Profile









 Re: Joseph Prince


Hi Castling,

You made all excellent points, which I agree. My own impression of Joseph Prince is that he does love the word of God, and understands it is alive.

However, some of the additional promises he makes to people, such as material(istic) blessing (for God does promise us food and clothes and He does indeed provide these in His own various ways, using not only Christians, for instance), may draw people into his churches who are attracted by the materialistic side of his ministry.

Hopefully, God has His hand on Joseph Prince to bring him to a deeper understanding of His ways and of the cutting edge of Truth, which truly is able to bring real Life to the inner man, according to all His promises.

The currently-running thread on the New Covenant (started by philologos), attempts to show what belongs to the Old Covenant, (such as abundant material blessing), and what belongs to the 'better' (New) Covenant which Christ established, by which we may receive the Holy Spirit.

The worldwide church seems to be plagued with an Old Covenant mentality, which mainly goes to show how most Christians either don't expect to have victory over sin in their own lives, and don't care to allow God to apply the cross to it. In other words, they have not really accepted the claims of Christ over their whole life, to live it in agreement with Him alone, and not with the world. Arriving at Christ is one thing. Following is another.

 2010/8/22 8:24
castling
Member



Joined: 2010/3/10
Posts: 31


 Re:

I think the problem arises because we've lived in a relatively long period of peace and prosperity - we haven't had a major global conflict for 70 years now. The church has tried to accommodate this, believing that such good times will continue to endure.

So it goes something like: live a God-centric life, but at the same time you can also 'enjoy life' i.e. all the wonderful things the world offers - latest gadgets, hip fashion, big cars, travelling, nice job...

And you're right - it is not that the enjoyment of such things is wrong, but the truth is that Jesus is life, and without Him there is none! To think otherwise is to miss out on experiencing the fullness of Christ... Jesus is all we need, only He can fully satisfy.

May God open our eyes to see this truth - in its fullness!

 2010/8/22 9:26Profile





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