| Re: A question about repentance and grace|
truefaithsav, that was a great post.
Earlier, I had intended to quote 'the law is for the lawless', but kept forgetting. This would mean that if any Christian failed to fulfill the law, they would fall into the 'lawless' category, the difference being, that the Christian's attitude to sin should be entirely repentant and heartbroken, whereas the unsaved man can sin to a band playing, and never notice he is not in fellowship with God.
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=18743&commentView=itemComments]Song of Solomon Part 2[/url] [i]by Paul Washer[/i]
| 2009/6/29 16:24|
Cache Valley, Utah
| Re: |
You know trufaith, I believe you do not understand what Eli has presented. Because you do not understand or are wilfully misrepresenting ( either way ) you are bearing false witness against a dear brother whom I know personaly and have had many a long conversation with. He has expressed the truth of the gospel. That Jesus came to save men who are sinners from sin, and set them free from the bondage of and penalty from sin. Since in the end of 1 John it talks about 2 types of sin, one unto death and one not unto death you must read the entire letter with this understanding. The point is that a Christian can sin but he cannot sin unto death. Romans says there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ....so when a Christian sins it is grevious and yet God does not take it into account against the Christian as he does the unsaved. God will NOT! cast a child of His into Hell for commiting sin, He will certainly discipline them but He will NOT punish them.
| 2009/6/29 18:30||Profile|
| Re: |
If a believer is not under obligation to the moral law of God, how can a believer commit any sins at all, let alone commit a sin that is not unto death? Only those who are obligated to the moral law are capable of violating the moral law. Since sin is transgression of the law, only those who are under obligation to the moral law are capable of committing sin.
If a believer is not under obligation to the moral law, they cannot commit a sin unto death or commit a sin that is not unto death, because they cannot commit a sin at all.
If a believer commits adultery, it is not a sin, unless they are under obligation to "thou shalt not commit adultery".
If a believer tells a lie, it is not a sin, unless they are under obligation to "thou shalt not bear false witness".
If a believer blasphemes God's name, it is not a sin, unless they are under obligation to "thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain".
Is it a sin for a believer to commit adultery, or to lie, or to blaspheme? If it is a sin for a believer to do so, then they must be under obligation to the moral law of God.
If a believer sins, should they confess it? If a believer is not under obligation to the moral law, they cannot sin, and therefore if they confess to sinning they are lying.
If a believer sins, should they repent of it? If a believer is not under obligation to the moral law, they have no sin to repent of.
If a believer sins, should they pray for forgiveness? If they are not under obligation to the moral law, they have no sin to seek forgiveness for.
If a believer sins, do they need to be covered by the blood of Christ? If believers are not under obligation to the moral law, they have no sin that needs covering.
In essence, if antinomian perfectionism is true, believers have no need for confession, repentance, prayers for forgiveness, or continual covering by the blood.
The point is that a Christian can sin
If sin is transgression of the law and believers are not under obligation to the law, how can a believer sin? A believer can do anything that they want and it is not a sin, they violate no obligation. It is wrong for an unbeliever to lie, steal, commit adultery, and blaspheme, but it is not a sin for a believer to do those things, if they are not under obligation to the moral law.
you are bearing false witness
Am I, as a believer, under moral obligation to "thou shalt not bear false witness"? Are believers supposed to obey the Ten Commandments, or are we free from the law? If we are free from the law, we are free to tell lies. Aren't you trying to put me under the "bondage" of the law, by telling me not to bear false witness?
And if believers are not in danger of the lake of fire if they become liars, why should we be concerned about accurately representing someone's views or not? If God is not really going to cast "all liars" into the lake of fire, what does it matter if believers are liars?
Of course, I am trying to represent Antinomian Perfectionism accurately, to the best of my ability.
| 2009/6/29 19:39|
| Re: |
When I turn my eyes to Jesus, when I contemplate all His obedience, His purity, His grace, His faith, His tenderness, His patience, His devotedness, His holiness, His love, His entire freedom from all self seeking, His all and in all that are His, I can say, that is my life. It may be that it is obscured in me; but it is none the less true, that it is my life.
This life that I now live, how do I live it?
Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
I live it by the "Faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me". None, no not one, can give himself for himself or for any other person, but the Only Begotten Son of God whom God the Father has put Him on a Cross and delighted in His suffering and in truth, brought it to pass. This gives Christ and Christ alone the right to my life, given Him by the Father. Nothing I do or did or will do can ever make anything I do equal or even close to what Christ has done for me and in me. This Christ that is in me cannot sin. We must make clear and understand that the Christ in me is who the Father depends on to qualify my life to be a son of God.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (This is my life that God see's, "Christ in me the hope of Glory".
This is not Christ that sins, for He cannot sin.
But, "If any man sin". Not the Christ that is in me, but, me, I, self, flesh, sins, the Advocate is in me and He with my confession because of my love that He has provided in me now must confess what is sin to me. 1 John 2:1-17 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. (((((((((And if any man sin,))))))))) we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes. I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake. I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one. Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
"If any man know what to do and does not do it, to him it is sin". Look it up in James. With this confession, even as a man, but also a son, God is Faithful (as a Parent, my Father), to forgive me and cleanse me from all unrighteousness.....
In Christ, I am perfect, but in the flesh, I as a man am not, but the unction from the quickening of the Holy Spirit and the life of the Son of God in me, quickly I run to the advocate when I don't do what I know to be right before God. Quickly and permanently and with all faithfulness, My Father forgives and continues the Work He began in me and will complete totally when The Son of Man comes to bring me Home to my and the Son of Gods, Father's House. Praise God, Keep listening and looking up, for our redemption draweth ever nearer every hour.
In Christ, my perfection: Phillip
| 2009/6/29 22:04||Profile|
Cache Valley, Utah
| Re: |
Christ is all my righteousness and I have not any of my own. If I sin it is the righteousness of Christ that stands in the way of the wrath of God, it is not my "repentance" that would be the most ridiculous thing in the world. To say that all Jesus did was to make salvation possible and now I must pull myself up by the bootstraps and obey the Law in order to be saved is absolutely a false gospel the one warned of by the Apostle Paul.
Actually I warn you as Paul did the Galatians that if you go to the Law for righteousness then Christ will profit you nothing. You started well, beginning in the Spirit and are you now being perfected in the flesh (Law)?
| 2009/6/29 23:07||Profile|
| Re: |
A person is righteous (right with God) not merely if they believe in Jesus Christ, for even the devil believe in Jesus Christ. That is known as easy believism or antinomianism. A person is righteous (right with God) if they repent of their sins and believe the Gospel. God grants the remission of sins by His grace and mercy, through Jesus Christ, not merely if we believe, but if we repent and believe. God forgives those who are repentant.
And saying, the time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. Mark 1:15
Testifying both to the Jews and also to the Greeks, repentance towards God, and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 20:21
Repentance, or turning from sin, is not justification by the law. Justification by the law is when a person is declared innocent because they have never sinned. That is why it is impossible for a sinner, for a guilty person, to be justified by the law. A person who has violated the law is guilty and therefore cannot be declared innocent. It is impossible for the court of God to examine their works and find them to be faultless. Therefore a guilty sinner cannot be justified (declared innocent) by the works of the law (because according to his works he is innocent).
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified I his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20.
What this means is that the law cannot declare us to be innocent by examining our works, because we have sinned. The reason we cannot be justified by the law is because justification by the law is the declaration of innocence. If a man is accused of a crime falsely and the evidence is provided which shows his works to be in perfect alignment with the law, the court will justify him. The court of God cannot declare the guilty as innocent because that would be lying. Therefore by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified, according to our works nobody will be declared innocent, because by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But those who repent of their sins and believe the Gospel are justified by Gods grace, not that they are declared innocent (since that would be declaring a lie) but that they are pardoned and treated as if they were innocent. Even though they deserve hell, God will not give them what they deserve. Those who repent and believe have Gods unmerited favor, they are forgiven by His mercy.
Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions, so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Eze 18:30
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. Isaiah 55:7
He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. Proverbs 28:13
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. Jonah 3:10
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Luke 13:3
Those who are declared innocent, because they are innocent, have reason to boast. But those who are treated as if they were innocent when they repent and believe, even though they are guilty, can only boast of Gods grace. To be justified by the works of the law, you would have to be perfect from birth to death. But to be justified by Gods grace and mercy, you simply need to repent and believe.
It is not enough to intellectually believe in Jesus, like the devils do (James 3:19). Jesus must be embraced as Lord and Savior by the heart. The entire idea of being righteous in our position, while still being unrighteous in our practice, was condemned and warned about by the Apostle John.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 1 John 3:7
The Bible warns about teaching forgiveness without repentance of sin, saying that Jesus can be your Savior without being your Lord:
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Jude 1:4
They profess that they know God, but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus 1:16
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. Romans 6:1-2
Gods grace is not for those who continue in sin. Gods grace is for those who repent of their sins.
For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Hebrews 10:26-27
Anyone who is still in their sins is under the wrath of God:
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men Romans 1:18
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath
upon every soul of man that doeth evil
. Romans 2:8-9
Only those who keep Gods law actually know God. And only those who keep Gods law will be allowed into Heaven:
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived
I Corinthians 6:9
| 2009/6/30 0:04|
Cache Valley, Utah
| Re: |
"Gods grace is not for those who continue in sin. Gods grace is for those who repent of their sins."
You have no idea what it is to repent of ones sins....I was the most vile person on the face of the earth, and by no effort of my own Jesus hung on the cross to pay for my sins. I believe the gospel as my only hope...you believe you have repented, that is arrogance and pride. You have not stopped sinning and likely you never will. Jesus is all my righteousness and my sanctification and hope and peace. I will not put my hope in the flesh as you do. Those who seek to be justified by law by it shall die. Paul warned in Phillipians 3 of the dogs who would pretend to be "christians" and bring people back into bondage to law. Repent and believe turn from the sin which so easily besets you and believe the only gospel. Look unto Jesus and His perfect sacrifice for all your sins, He alone can save, not some faulty idea of repentance, as you claim to have accomplished. The Mormons believe that in order to be saved you must stop all of your sins, and hence their view of sin is extremely low, so low in fact the call sin "mistakes". I beg you to stop confusing your mind with many books, and read only the word of God.
| 2009/6/30 2:02||Profile|
| Re: |
I don't understand. Are you saying that you have never repented of your sins?
How can it be arrogance and pride to repent of your sins? Does that mean that it is somehow humility to stay in your sins?
Repentance for forgiveness is not justification by the law. Justification by the law is the declaration of innocence. Repentance for forgiveness is justification by grace. Those who repent still deserve hell, therefore their pardon is gracious and merciful.
We are not to trust in our works to get to Heaven, as if we don't deserve punishment, or as if our works are perfectly justified in God's sight. We are to trust in God's grace and mercy, through the atonement, which we receive through repentance and faith.
Paul warned in Phillipians 3 of the dogs who would pretend to be "christians" and bring people back into bondage to law.
"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." 1 John 5:3
Was the Apostle John a dog? Was he a pretent Christian? He didn't teach God's commandments as bondage, he said they were not burdensome.
According to you, a person must either teach lawlessness or they are a dog? If a person teaches lawfulness, they are a pretend Christian?
Was Jesus Christ a dog? Was Jesus Christ a pretend? He will say to those who live lawlessly, to those who break His law, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:23
| 2009/6/30 2:30|
| Re: |
While I have my disagreements with the Early Church on some issues, I have found these quotes to be very powerful. A return to the Apostolic Faith would shake the modern Church and the world!
"Since all things are seen and heard [by God], let us fear Him and forsake those wicked works that proceed from evil desires. By doing that, through His mercy, we may be protected from the judgments to come." Clement of Rome, the companion of Paul and John, whom the Bible says has eternal life in Philippines 4:3
"Let us therefore repent with the whole heart, so that none of us perish by the way." Second Clement, year 150
"Let us therefore practice righteousness so that we may be saved unto the end." Second Clement, year 150
"Repentance is great wisdom. For he who has sinned understands that he acted wickedly in the sight of the Lord. He remembers the actions he has done, and he repents. He no longer acts wickedly, but he does good generously." Hermas, year 150
That was sound doctrine which you heard; for that is really the case. For he who has received remission of sins should not sin anymore, but should live in purity." Hermas, year 150
"He must believe that salvation belongs to the one who lives according to the commandments." Clement of Alexandria, year 195
"He that repents of what he did, no longer does or says things he did... He, then, who has received the forgiveness of sins should sin no more." Clement of Alexandria, year 195
"But continual and successive repentings of sins does not differ at all from the case of those who have not believed at all." Clement of Alexandria, year 195
"True repentance means to be no longer bound in the same sins for which He denounced death against Himself. Rather, it is to eradicate them completely from the soul." Clement of Alexandria, year 195
"Repentance is the price for which the Lord has determined to award pardon." Tertullian, year 203
"He, then, will receive you - His own son - back, even if you have squandered what you had received from Him... But He does this only if you heartily repent. He does this only if you contrast your own hunger with the plenty of your Father's hired servants. And you must leave behind you the swine - that unclean herd." Tertullian, year 203
"All sins may be forgiven the one who has turned to God with his whole heart... Turn to the Lord and forsake your sins... repentance unto salvation.." Exhortation to repentance, year 255
"To repent is nothing else than to profess and to affirm that one will sin no more... He who sins wilfully has no pardon." Lactantius, year 304-313
"He is appeased by a reform of the morals. He who ceases to sin renders the anger of God extinguishable." Lactantius, 304-313
"A sinner avoids destruction by repentance." Apostolic Constitutions, year 390
"He who wills that no one should perish, desires that sinners should repent, and by repentance, should return again to life." Cyprian, year 250
"Those who do not obey Him, but being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons." Irenaeus, year 180
"He who sins after his baptism, unless he repents and forsakes his sins, will be condemned to Gehenna." Apostolic Constitutions, year 390
"For do not many afterwards fall out of [grace]? Is not this gift taken away from many?" Tertullian, year 203
"Being a believing man, if you seek to live as the Gentiles do, the joys of the world remove you from the grace of Christ." Commodianus, year 240
"Knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness." Irenaeus, year 180
"The world returned to sin... and so it is destined to fire. So is the man who after baptism renews his sins." Tertullian, year 198
"if you die in sin, there will remain no repentance for you." Apostolic Constitutions, year 390
| 2009/6/30 2:35|
| Re: |
repentance is faith in action, faith without repentance is not real faith. Jesus said "repent and believe".
Its a twofolded package. two sides of the same coin, and if one is leftout, the new birth is not possible nor keept if not keept up til the last day.
| 2009/6/30 2:48||Profile|