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 Re:

In the 1800's arose a group called the "Antinomian Perfectionists". They taught that believers were not under obligation to the moral law. Therefore it was impossible for believers to sin. Therefore all believers were perfect.

Even if a believer steals, this is not a sin, because they are not obligated to "thou shalt not steal". Even if a believer blasphemes God, it is not a sin, because a believer is not obligated to "thou shalt not take the name of the Lord your God in vain". Even if a believer cheats on his wife, this is not a sin, because a believer is not obligated to "thou shalt not commit adultery." A believer could steal, blaspheme, and commit adultery and still remain morally perfect. It is not a sin for a believer to break any of the moral law, because a believer is not under the law.

It would seem that Eli_Barnabas is a part of this group. I didn't know that this group was still around. This type of doctrine, unsound interpretations, and strange reasoning was entirely rejected by the Church in the 1800's when it first arose.

Just because the Bible says that we are not "under the law" doesn't mean that we have to interpret that to mean we are not under obligation to the law - lawlessness or antinomianism. It is not a sound interpretation to interject "[b]obligation[/b]" into that sentence, since other passages clearly teach that we are under obligation to the law. Rather, it would make more sense to interject the word [b]motive[/b] for some of those passages, or [b]condemnation[/b] for others. As Christians, we are not under the motives of the law, neither are we under the condemnation of the law, but we certainly are under obligation to the law. True liberty is no longer being under the motives of the law or the condemnation of the law, but Christian liberty is not being free from obligation to the law.

Which is true?

- Believers are not under the motives of the law
- Believers are not under the condemnation of the law
- Believers are not under obligation to the law

The first two are true, the last one is false.

[b]If a believer was not under obligation to obey the moral law:[/b]

- a believer would never need to pray for forgiveness, or pray the Lords prayer

- a believer would never need to confess his sin, because there would be no sin to confess, and the confession of sin would actually be a lie

- the Holy Spirit would not and could not convict a believer for his conduct.

- God could not forgive (impute not) sin committed by a believer, because there would be no sin to forgive, there would be no sin to impute not.

- a believer would not have to caution himself against sin.

- preachers do not have to preach against sin in their Church, because there would be no sin

- a believer could live just like the devil, without being sinful

- a believer is lying if he ever says that he is sinful, or that he is a sinner

- lawlessness must not be a bad thing in God's eyes

- Jesus Christ has given us a license to sin, being under grace means having a license to be lawless

- a believer never has to feel bad for mistreating God or others

- a believer could not keep God's commandments, because there would be no commandments to keep

- you cannot say a man is not a Christian if he is actively involved in the homosexual lifestyle, because homosexuality is not a sin for a believer

- a believer would never need to repent of sin, because there would be no sin to repent of

- a believer would never have to fear losing salvation because of sin, because there would be no sin to commit

- a believer would no longer need an atonement if he sins, because his sin is not really a sin

 2009/6/26 1:01









 Re: A question about repentance and grace



This post is to no-one in particular. I have not made time to read the posts in this thread since my last post, but in another thread, I was directed to an article on David Wilkerson's website, and have extracted this small portion of it, because it is relevant to the opening post here.

Paul, I hope you're doing okay. Keep looking to the Lord for light.


[i]'We are called to tell sinful men and women that their own personal goodness — their moral uprightness and good works — cannot merit any right standing with God.

We are called to persuade self-made people that they must die to their own desires in order to give their lives for others.

We are called to tell the worldly person that his integrity is as dirty rags in God’s sight. In telling him this, we are taking from him his pearl of great price, the thing he worked so hard to obtain. And when we tell him no amount of self-earned righteousness can amount to salvation, he will despise us.

Some say the preaching of the cross is too intolerant, as so-called “new evangelicals” seek accommodation for people’s flesh.
Many voices in the church today say Christians must accept and show a new kind of love. They’re talking about a love in which biblical truth must bend with the times.

According to this gospel, no personal changes are necessary when one accepts Christ. [b]Indeed, no repentance is needed. Rather, the goal in presenting this gospel is simple: to break down any barrier that could be considered a stumbling block to a person’s acceptance of Christ[/b]...'



David Wilkerson[/i]




[url=http://www.worldchallenge.org/node/6612]Full article: They Hated Him Without A Cause[/url]


Here is a hymn to pray through.

[i]Tune: [url=http://www.hymntime.com/tch/htm/j/e/jesusmya.htm]Bethany[/url] by Lowell Mason[/i]


Wash me, O Lamb of God,
Wash me from sin!
By Thine atoning blood,
O make me clean!
Purge me from ev'ry stain,
Let me Thine image gain,
In love and mercy reign
O'er all within!

Wash me, O Lamb of God,
Wash me from sin!
I long to be like Thee,
All pure within.
Now let the crimson tide,
Shed from Thy wounded side,
Be to my heart applied,
And make me clean.

Wash me, O Lamb of God,
Wash me from sin!
I will not, cannot rest
Till pure within.
All human skill is vain,
But Thou canst cleanse each stain
Till not a spot remain—
Made wholly clean.

Wash me, O Lamb of God,
Wash me from sin!
By faith Thy cleansing blood
Now makes me clean.
So near art Thou to me,
So sweet my rest in Thee—
O blessed purity,
Saved, saved from sin!

Wash me, O Lamb of God,
Wash me from sin!
Thou, while I trust in Thee,
Wilt keep me clean.
Each day to Thee I bring
Heart, life— yea, ev'rything;
Saved, while to Thee I cling,
Saved from all sin!



[i]Words: HB Beagle[/i]


 2009/6/26 12:30
Eli_Barnabas
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

Quote:
Not sure what you mean here. To depart from the faith is to sin.



Again, I refer you to the Galatians.

Quote:
You posted scriptures again about being dead to the law but the scriptures say other things are sin besides just failure to keep the law (while under the law). I posted that in my original post..could you address those as well?



Jesus said there was no command higher than to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and second, to love your neighbor as yourself. Both of these commands are found in the law (Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18) and summarize the whole law. In essence, the law is the highest moral expectation that God has for man. Jesus' life is the one example of someone who kept the law. Anyone who says they are sinless is a liar. The law always finds us guilty.

Sin is transgression of the law - it doesn't have to be this command or that, but a violation of the two greatest commandments. A violation of love is a violation of the law. Impatience, pride, unkindness, etc. Any moral flaw is a sin against the law. So I don't know what you're talking about when you ask me to find a sin that is not breaking the law. Every sin falls under the umbrella of not loving God with all the heart, soul, mind and strength.

The gospel is that we are not justified by the moral law but by faith in Jesus Christ who satisfied the law for us. Departing from the gospel is going back under the law - thinking that you must fulfill some moral command to be saved. Even when we make faith a meritorious thing do we depart from the gospel. Our only hope is in Christ and His merit. We believe that Christ is our righteousness.

As for 1 John 1:9, I understand it to be talking about the moment of salvation. "He is faithful and just"... [i]"That He might be just and the justifier of them which believe in Jesus."[/i] (Romans 3:26)


_________________
Eli Brayley

 2009/6/26 12:33Profile









 Re: A question about repentance and grace



I know no-one is asking this question here, but in the light of the discussion around 1 John 1:9 (which is fully explained in Paul Washer's message The True Gospel), I'd like to testify that I puzzled for many, many years over 1 John 1:8.

Eventually, God made me see that [i][b]unless[/i][/b] the truth is in us, we do not see our sin.

However, it behoves us to take very seriously what the light of truth shows us, or, we will happily slip back into self-deception, mistaking the promptings of the Holy Spirit for an over-active conscience which need not be obeyed.

Recently, I've heard it pointed out that we cannot search our own hearts. We must open them to God for Him to search them. This, it appears, is the way to be certain we are not deceiving ourselves about our standing with God.

Indeed, if we thought we had [u]no sin[/u], why would we need to walk in the light as He is in the light so that His blood would be continuously cleansing us from all sin? (1 John 1:7)

I think this is much more about the attitudes of our hearts, than it is about being hyervigilant in a legalistic sort of way, lacking in liberty and love for others. If we allow our relationships with men to be ruled by the teaching of Jesus Christ, we will have real peace.

Percy Gutteridge, in his sermon Father of Lights, makes 'walk in the light' = 'the cross'. That's a helpful perspective, I believe, and worth thinking about more deeply.

 2009/6/26 13:25









 Re:

Eli Barnabus,
Greetings,
There are three words here that are of the utmost importance.And if they lose their
original meaning,it is really critical!

The gospel:Jesus said,`the gospel is`the gospel of the kingdom.'In another place,He said`this gospel'must be preached throughout the whole world,and then shall the end come.'The kingdom is a place where the King,who is Jesus rules ..is Lord.He comes in by-way of the Holy Spirit to do His work in our lives.(it is the Father that does the work,but we must allow Him to.(Paul said,`For as many as are led by the Spirit of God,they are the sons of God.')

Grace:The Devine influance upon the heart and it's reflection in the life.(The Spirit drawing us God-ward.)The same Devine drawing of us as
at the first encountering with God.So He,( His grace)continues to draw us to His will.

Repentance:to turn around and go in the WAY of Gods leading.Example..Paul was going in a way, that he thought was right..totaly blinded.
But the Lord came to him, he did a complete turn, and asked` What would Thou have for me to do Lord?
I wish I had time to look up all this , but really I don't.Please look them up.
with all sincerity,
Elizabeth





 2009/6/27 21:52
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

How does one, "does not sin" when he is born from above? Since Christ is the only one that did not sin, it must be attached to the One that does not sin, that is Jesus Christ and His birthing in us. For Christ is in us and He cannot sin, so in His capacity of being our Spirit, which if we don't have we are none of His, It is His life in us that is the perfection before the Father and He sees' no sin because he sees only Jesus Christ as our Spirit. But, "If any man sin", this is a man in Christ that has not been made perfect in all aspects of his being a Christian that believes the Jesus Christ is the Son of God. We are perfect in Spirit for it is the Spirit of Christ that is in us. We are being made perfect in our soul/mind for the Holy Spirit is also in us doing His job of bringing this Christ into our minds that we seek to change our mind to the mind of Christ. We will be changed in the resurrection and our bodies will be just like His.

"But If any man sin", we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ and "If we confess our sin, God is faithful and just to forgive us all sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. We are His and He will make of us exactly what He wants us to be, for His Kingdom and for His Christ by the Holy Spirit teacher, we have, we have the whole God Head in us. The Son and the Father making their abode with us and the Holly Spirit in us forever, and the Incorruptable Seed of the Father, which is Jesus Christ Himself, His Seed birthed in us making us son's of God Spiritually and will be son's of God, manifest in our new flesh and bone bodies in resurrection and oneness with Jesus Christ, The Father and the Holy Spirit forever learning God and His Son and His ways.

There is no need to repent for the Christian, there is great need for Israel to repent as a nation and all individuals the believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and Christ being birthed in them by the Incorruptable Seed, the Word Himself, now have an advocate with the Father and our confession is our freedom, agreeing with God the Father that all He speaks and shows us to follow is perfect and righteous and acceptable to Him by the Son that is born again in us. He has made Jesus Christ to be in us:::

1 Corinthians 1:28-31 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

And the elect and chosen of God will hear this Gospel preached by Paul.... Acts 28:28-31 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves. And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.\\This includes all individual Jews who are the elect and chosen in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-10 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Pauls Mystery: Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.;;;;;;;Christ in you""""""""

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Christ in you 2 and me: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2009/6/28 1:38Profile
clintstone
Member



Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re: A question about repentance and grace

1 john 1:8 , is talking about becoming saved , and its requirement to confess our sins . John is talking about justification there , and NOT sanctification . Grace is the , means of salvation , in the way that Jesus [ GOD ] sought us out and showed us how we could be obedient in Christ . If you broke your leg and deemed yourself incapable of going to work in such a condition , you then stayed home ,and did not go to work . Your employer , missing you , and having work for you to do , comes to your home , looking for you and finding you , tells you , that you are still able to work for Him and calls you back to the job . this is an example of Grace . you repent of your self deemed state , and follow your bossess good graces , and go back to work . I know that people will not agree that 1 john 1:8 is only talking about justification , because he is supposed to only be writting to Christians , but this is what he is talking about . Noone can come to Christ and be cleansed from all SIN [ unrightiousness ] without first confessing that they have sinned . Now, if one was to think have not sinned before confessing Christ as your savior , and thereby cleansed from ALL sin , then you are a liar and know not LOVE . This is what john is addressing . hope this helps , God bless , Clint


_________________
Clint Demoret

 2009/6/28 18:33Profile
passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 644


 Re:

Very radical statements by Eli_...

Quote:
All Christians (those whose identities are in Christ) are dead to the law through the death of Christ. Therefore they are not subject to the law. To the law, the Christian is dead. They CANNOT break the law, and so therefore they CANNOT sin! At all! There is no way a true Christian can sin because sin is transgression of the law, and "without the law sin is dead." (Romans 7:8)



Quote:
I fully reject the common assumption that 1 John 3 says we cannot "practice" sin. There's no basis for that at all in the Greek. Just because it is a presently active phrase doesn't mean John was talking about practicing sin. He was literally saying, as he so clearly says, that whoever is born of God does not sin. Present, active... he does not sin, period. Do we not read John in verse 4? What is sin? And who sins?

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4)

Whoever commits sin transgresses the law. Does that apply to a Christian, who is redeemed from the law?



I understand now why 'truefaithsav' is wondering if Eli.. belongs to 'antinomian perfectionists'.

No offense intended sir but I am really amazed, maybe these are just difficult statements that could be misinterpreted easily as what peter said about some teachings of the apostle paul.

Have a nice day.

 2009/6/29 3:36Profile









 Re: A question about repentance and grace

Christinyou said

Quote:
There is no need to repent for the Christian

Ron Bailey, Paul Washer, Carter Conlon and many other preachers would say this is not true, for a Christian can come under conviction of sin, and [i][b]should[/i][/b] repent when they do.


Ebeth said
Quote:
Grace:The Devine influance upon the heart and it's reflection in the life.(The Spirit drawing us God-ward.)The same Devine drawing of us as at the first encountering with God.So He,( His grace)continues to draw us to His will.

There is more to grace than unmerited favour by which faith is sufficient to bring salvation to us.

Eph 3:7 ... according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.


What was that power? Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; [u]that ye may know[/u] what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what [is] [u]the exceeding greatness of his power[/u] to us-ward who believe, according to [b]the working of his mighty power[/b], 20 [b]Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead[/b], and

1 Peter 3:7, Romans 11:5, Hebrews 4:16, Hebrews 10:29 = Rom 6:4


1 Cor 12:4 Strong's definition of 'gifts':

of gifts
New Testament Greek Definition:
5486 charisma {khar'-is-mah}
from 5483; TDNT - 9:402,1298; n n
AV - gift 15, free gift 2; 17

1) a favour with which one receives without any merit of his own

2) the gift of [u]divine grace[/u]

3) the gift of faith, knowledge, holiness, virtue

4) [u]the economy of divine grace[/u], by which the pardon of sin and eternal salvation is appointed to sinners in consideration of the merits of Christ laid hold of by faith

5) [u]grace[/u] or gifts denoting extraordinary powers, distinguishing certain Christians and enabling them to serve the church of Christ, the reception of which is due to [u]the power of divine grace[/u] operating on their souls by the Holy Spirit


Acts 14:3
Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto [u]the word of his grace[/u], and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

Acts 20:32
And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to [u]the word of his grace[/u], which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.


clintstone said
Quote:
I know that people will not agree that 1 john 1:8 is only talking about justification , because he is supposed to only be writting to Christians , but this is what he is talking about . Noone can come to Christ and be cleansed from all SIN [ unrightiousness ] without first confessing that they have sinned . Now, if one was to think have not sinned before confessing Christ as your savior , and thereby cleansed from ALL sin , then you are a liar and know not LOVE .

Dear brother, you can try to have it both ways, but some of us will notice. John most definitely was writing to Christians - little children, young men, fathers.

I was not suggesting a person can be cleansed of their sin without knowing their need of confession of that sin to Jesus, and repentance that enables them to cease from that sin.
Quote:
[John] is talking about justification there , and NOT sanctification . Grace is the , means of salvation

So, how come that John doesn't mention 'grace' directly, if that's what he's talking about?

To sanctify, is to set apart for God's use alone. Once that has been done, we - those who have set themselves apart unto God - are required to renew this 'setting apart' many times through our Christian life.

What John is getting at in 1 John 1:8, which rather follows on from 1 John 1:7 as well as fitting in with 1 John 1:9, does indeed play a part in what is commomnly called 'sanctification', and is covered again by 1 John 3:3, which most specifically is within the context of sonship (authentic Christianity).

1 Pet 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


Peter's writing above, is all in the present continuous tense. That means the purifying is not over yet. This fits in with 1 John 1:8 also, and

2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty. 18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.


For, why would we need to be changed by looking into the face of Christ, if we are already so perfect we don't need to change anything?

 2009/6/29 6:33









 Re:

One minister, around 1837, said this:

"There have been many, in modern times, called Perfectionists, who held that they were [b]not under obligation to obey the law[/b]... Where the Bible says sin shall not have dominion over believers, these persons understand by it, [b]that the same acts, which would be sin if done by an unconverted person, are not sin in them[/b]. The others, they say, are under the law, and so bound by its rules, but themselves are sanctified, and are in Christ, and [b]if they break the law it is no sin[/b]."

Eli_Barnabas said the same thing:

Quote:
Therefore they are not subject to the law. To the law, the Christian is dead. They CANNOT break the law, and so therefore they CANNOT sin! At all!



In other words, Ted Haggard did not really sin when he committed homosexuality, because it is not a sin for a Christian to be a homosexual. Homosexuality is only a sin for unbelievers, homosexuality is not a sin for believers, because believers have no moral law that they are obligated to keep. It is not a sin for a Christian to live lawless (to live like there is no law) because a Christian has no moral law that God wants them to keep.

Eli_Barnabas interpreted 1 John 3:9, about how believers “cannot sin”, to mean that believers cannot sin because they have no commandments to keep. This interpretation is the exact opposite of what the inspired Apostle meant. The passage is not about lawlessness, but lawfulness. It is not that the believer has no commandments to keep, but that the believer keeps the commandments that he is supposed to. As the Apostle says, “we keep His commandments”.

This idea of antinomian perfectionism teaches that Jesus didn't come to save us from sin, but from the law. You can't get all the sin out of your life, so instead, God takes the law out of your life. It represents the law, not sin, as the problem. God has no problem with His law. God's problem has always been with man's sin.

There is nothing wrong with a man being faithful to his wife, as the commandment teaches. There is something wrong with adultery. There is nothing wrong with a man telling the truth. There is something wrong with lying. It is not the law that is wrong, it is violating the law that is wrong. God does not want to take away the moral law, God wants to take away sin.

 2009/6/29 14:54





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