Noah wasn't merely a preacher of righteousness, he was righteous, and found favor with God. If God declares you righteous, you cannot help but become born again, no matter what dispensation you were born under. When God declares you righteous, you actually become what God says you are by the power of His creative word, through the quickening of the Holy Spirit. I find it fascinating that Paul uses two old testament saints, Abraham and David, to build his theology of justification and a (regenerated) circumcised heart on, in Romans 3 through 4. How else could it have been that in Noah's time that men's hearts and minds were continually focused on evil, while Noah was pure except for the miracle of the new birth? Most of us are not even so pure in our own thought life as righteous Noah was... and he was living in the old dispensation!
_________________Jimmy H
Hi KJ,What?Paul never suggests Abraham was born again.That is the whole point of explaining that it was his agreement with God's word to him, which [u]God[/u] counted as righteousness.Under the New Covenant, there are many differences, especially that Christ is our righteousness and it is quite a different experience than Noah or Abraham ever had.Note also, both those OT saints were before Moses, when Paul clearly stated that death reigned.The idea of being 'born again' had never been mentioned until Jesus used the terminology to Nicodemus. But, Noah sought favour with God, and found it. His father had been alive with Adam, and interestingly, Noah also overlapped with Abraham for quite a few years.The writer to the Hebrews refers to Moses as 'a servant' in the house of Israel, whereas Jesus said to Peter 'then are the children free'.There's a very big difference.
Paul never suggests Abraham was born again.
Under the New Covenant, there are many differences, especially that Christ is our righteousness and it is quite a different experience than Noah or Abraham ever had.
Note also, both those OT saints were before Moses, when Paul clearly stated that death reigned.
The idea of being 'born again' had never been mentioned until Jesus used the terminology to Nicodemus.
The writer to the Hebrews refers to Moses as 'a servant' in the house of Israel, whereas Jesus said to Peter 'then are the children free'.
KingJimmy wrote:Noah wasn't merely a preacher of righteousness, he was righteous, and found favor with God.
If God declares you righteous, you cannot help but become born again, no matter what dispensation you were born under.
When God declares you righteous, you actually become what God says you are by the power of His creative word, through the quickening of the Holy Spirit.
How else could it have been that in Noah's time that men's hearts and minds were continually focused on evil, while Noah was pure except for the miracle of the new birth? Most of us are not even so pure in our own thought life as righteous Noah was... and he was living in the old dispensation!
Hi KJ,I lost the post I'd prepared a few minutes ago, and don't want to re-write it right now.Perhaps you could explain - 'if' Noah and Abraham were 'born again' - why the Son of God become Man, and died on a cross? I have always understood the work of the cross as an essential pre-requisite for new birth; how do you do away with it for those Old Testament saints, and what was the purpose of the Law of Moses, if new birth was possible without it?
I feel my head beginning to hurt... lolKrispy
"Lately he appears to be attempting to use the methods of diaprax to get others to accept his different doctrinal positions. For those who are not familar with diaprax, the method goes something like this; The facilitator (Intense in this case) attempts to interrogate a person regarding their position on an issue. This is done by using a series of select questions that will most effectively break down the persons confidence in his position" InthelightThank you Ron, this explains a lot of questions I had concerning not just doctrine but motives. I'm afraid there are more here as well. The only way I could have described it without knowing the actual 'techniques' is 'circular theological argument' that never seems designed for any conclusion except that which the poster presents. The good news is that after awhile they stick out like a sore thumb even though the bait is often taken. These issues you presented don't just go to doctrine, but character. Anything designed to be less than honest and/or transparent in motive is deceptive. They seem to thrive on constantly presenting and arguing over 'theological wedge issues'.It seems some on here do this as technique to introduce a particular doctrine, or just to stir the pot up. Either scenario in this motive wreaks of bad fruit!!!!
Intense,Noah may have not been born again, but He was at least under the influence of the Holy Spirit and it was upon Him and working with Him.If you read of David you will see much of the Spirit's work and how He had a heart after God's own heart.I cannot say for sure but it could be that these men were actually born again though it was not fully revealed.No man under the Law or Old Covenant could keep it by Himself for all have sinned and if it is by that standard they would all be consumed. So, you cannot say first you cannot say that when God called Him righteous that He meant he was perfect enough to keep the law perfectly his whole life nor that he was able to do it alone apart from the Spirit.Also, you are trying to distinguish between living a righteous life and living by the righteousness of Jesus Christ and there is actually no difference. The law if perfect and so is Christ. Christ is not more perfect then the Law."IF" also you are saying that the OT men of God did not make it into the Kingdom at all then you are wrong in that. Noah didn't find favor with God because of his own righteousness in the sense that you are saying. He was made righteous by faith as it says in Hebrews. Yes this faith is mingled with works but it is not the works that save you but merely the faith that produces works. It was Noah's faith/trust/belief/humility/dependence/surrender to God that made Him righteous. Once again it is not works that saves you but faith in Christ that will in turn result in works as fruit.You cannot take isolate one passage and make a doctrine out of it you have to look at the whole of scripture and divide it rightly accordingly. Anyone can take out single verse or even a few and make just about any doctrine they want, though it be false.
anonymity wrote:Intense,Noah may have not been born again, but He was at least under the influence of the Holy Spirit and it was upon Him and working with Him.If you read of David you will see much of the Spirit's work and how He had a heart after God's own heart.I cannot say for sure but it could be that these men were actually born again though it was not fully revealed.
No man under the Law or Old Covenant could keep it by Himself for all have sinned and if it is by that standard they would all be consumed. So, you cannot say first you cannot say that when God called Him righteous that He meant he was perfect enough to keep the law perfectly his whole life nor that he was able to do it alone apart from the Spirit.
Also, you are trying to distinguish between living a righteous life and living by the righteousness of Jesus Christ and there is actually no difference. The law if perfect and so is Christ. Christ is not more perfect then the Law.
"IF" also you are saying that the OT men of God did not make it into the Kingdom at all then you are wrong in that.
Noah didn't find favor with God because of his own righteousness in the sense that you are saying.
He was made righteous by faith as it says in Hebrews. Yes this faith is mingled with works but it is not the works that save you but merely the faith that produces works. It was Noah's faith/trust/belief/humility/dependence/surrender to God that made Him righteous. Once again it is not works that saves you but faith in Christ that will in turn result in works as fruit.
You cannot take isolate one passage and make a doctrine out of it you have to look at the whole of scripture and divide it rightly accordingly. Anyone can take out single verse or even a few and make just about any doctrine they want, though it be false.
Intense,
Their best shot in the OT was Justification by faith, in God.
For you to say that is to reveal you haven't read most posts very well nor are you grasping what Paul taught on the matter.
Yep however, in Noah's case, it could only be faith in God. Jesus wasn't born and the Holy Spirit wasn't given. Elementary stuff, my friend.. .